Kobe Bryant deserves MORE respect!

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">
Cassell is a lot better than Fisher but the difference of Bryant and Redd is A LOT bigger, the only guy who is really close to Bryant is Iverson, Redd is barely an average passer/ball handler. Redd can create his own shots? I'd like to see the % of his baskets that were assisted, I'm pretty sure it'd be pretty high...

So the guy that can't be counted on during the last 3-5 minutes of a game is the reason his teams win? Or he could get 56 on 34 like he did against the Grizzlies a couple of years ago... Or the 52 against the Rockets last season...

Well Bryant wasn't going to beat the defending champions by himself, Shaq's best scoring game was game 2 though. Shaq played 42 minutes in Game 5, foul trouble is what they're giving Rasheed against the Lakers...</div>

redd is right up there w/ the top SG's in the league... this guy didn't make it to the all-star game in the guard-loaded eastern conference by mistake... redd is an excellent player... not quite up there w/ kobe, but he is right along side pierce and the likes... he may just be an average passer, but he is a great ball handler, and yes, he can create his own shots... that lightning quick release and his quick step back is right up there with the best in the league...

like i said, shaq might not be the one to get the ball down the stretch, but he is gonna be the one who puts u in position to win... he is a inside presence on the defensive end which prevents teams from getting easy buckets late in the game... and he forces the other teams center to be honest on defense... and if it wasn't for his 3 point play at the end of regulation in game 2, lakers would be down 3-0 right now... Shaq may have played 42 minutes in game 5, but with his foul situation, he could not assert himself the way he normally would on the defensive end.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">redd is right up there w/ the top SG's in the league... not quite up there w/ kobe, but he is right along side pierce and the likes...

like i said, shaq might not be the one to get the ball down the stretch, but he is gonna be the one who puts u in position to win... he is a inside presence on the defensive end which prevents teams from getting easy buckets late in the game... and he forces the other teams center to be honest on defense... and if it wasn't for his 3 point play at the end of regulation in game 2, lakers would be down 3-0 right now... Shaq may have played 42 minutes in game 5, but with his foul situation, he could not assert himself the way he normally would on the defensive end.</div>

You give Redd way more credit than I would...

You give Shaq way more credit that I would... Shaq goes through nights where he doesn't assert himself on defense a lot, foul trouble or not... Oh and who were the Pistons triple teaming last night? I thought the Pistons don't double anybody? Those dudes introduced The Bryant Rules last night...

 

If you can name me 10 SG's in the league better than Redd, i'd like to hear it... And as far as shaq goes, i'm not putting him up there as one of the top 3 players in the league where i place kobe, but in terms of value to the team, both need each other, i just find it that kobe needs shaq more than shaq needs kobe. As far as detroit doubling last night, i won't comment too much on it as i did not watch the game. But if you watched the first two games, they did not send constant doubles at anyone and they probably wanted to try something new. However, the outcome of the game doesn't necessarily make a good argument for kobe or shaq, so you shoulda probably stayed away from that. Jordan was still dropping 20-30 ppg versus the bad boys when they applied the jordan rules.

 

just got a chance to catch the replay on NBA TV. I only got a chance to catch the second half, and from what i saw there was not much triple teaming on kobe... not even much double teaming for that matter. They played him straight up, but had defenders show when he got past someone, but there were very seldom actual double teams... Rivers kept talking about how it was similar to the jordan rules, but it was actually anything but that... When the bad boys used the jordan rules, they used full fledged double and triple teams the second jordan got the ball passed the mid-court. The pistons didnt even double or triple team kobe unless he got deep in to the key. They always had defenders in the area where kobe wanted to go, but those defenders only showed to slow kobe down to let his defender recover, but the help defenders themselves seldomly ran themselves at kobe.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">If you can name me 10 SG's in the league better than Redd, i'd like to hear it... As far as detroit doubling last night, i won't comment too much on it as i did not watch the game. However, the outcome of the game doesn't necessarily make a good argument for kobe or shaq, so you shoulda probably stayed away from that.</div>

There isn't ten, but that doesn't mean he's even close to Bryant... To me, it's Bryant, Iverson......... Pierce, James, McGrady... Allan, Hamilton, Redd?

They weren't hard double or triple teams, but it was obvious that they didn't want Kobe to get his as easily as he has before.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">just got a chance to catch the replay on NBA TV. I only got a chance to catch the second half, and from what i saw there was not much triple teaming on kobe... not even much double teaming for that matter. They played him straight up, but had defenders show when he got past someone, but there were very seldom actual double teams... Rivers kept talking about how it was similar to the jordan rules, but it was actually anything but that... When the bad boys used the jordan rules, they used full fledged double and triple teams the second jordan got the ball passed the mid-court. The pistons didnt even double or triple team kobe unless he got deep in to the key. They always had defenders in the area where kobe wanted to go, but those defenders only showed to slow kobe down to let his defender recover, but the help defenders themselves seldomly ran themselves at kobe.</div>

He ended the 1st half with 1 point, on a technical free throw... Like I said above, they weren't hard double or triple teams, but it was obvious that they didn't want Kobe to get his as easily as he has before. Rivers did exagerate... But again, it was obvious that part of their game plan was to contain Kobe and in the 1st half you could tell they didn't want him to start hot...

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">There isn't ten, but that doesn't mean he's even close to Bryant... To me, it's Bryant, Iverson......... Pierce, James, McGrady... Allan, Hamilton, Redd?

They weren't hard double or triple teams, but it was obvious that they didn't want Kobe to get his as easily as he has before.



He ended the 1st half with 1 point, on a technical free throw... Like I said above, they weren't hard double or triple teams, but it was obvious that they didn't want Kobe to get his as easily as he has before. Rivers did exagerate... But again, it was obvious that part of their game plan was to contain Kobe and in the 1st half you could tell they didn't want him to start hot...</div>

i never said he was up there w/ kobe, tmac, and AI... but he's right up there with the next group of the best SGs in the league. And i dont think hamilton is better redd. Hamilton would not have been able to carry the bucks the way redd did this year.

The game plan for teams has always been to contain kobe, but its also been to contain shaq as well. It wasn't a coincidence that shaq and kobe both had crappy games, it was by design. This is nothing new. However, there were more possessions where they would send hard double and triple teams to shaq than when they sent them at kobe. But then again, when a guy that dominant catches the ball that deep in the paint, you usually have no choice but to send those doubles

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">
The game plan for teams has always been to contain kobe, but its also been to contain shaq as well. It wasn't a coincidence that shaq and kobe both had crappy games, it was by design. This is nothing new. However, there were more possessions where they would send hard double and triple teams to shaq than when they sent them at kobe. But then again, when a guy that dominant catches the ball that deep in the paint, you usually have no choice but to send those doubles</div>

Again, the Lakers can't win with Bryant having a bad game, it doesn't matter what Shaq does, Bryant's the key and has been for a long time already. Everyone's blaming Bryant for not getting Shaq the ball in the 4th, it wouldn't have mattered anyway, the Lakers needed a 34 point 4th quarter. Shaq wasn't going to get them, but he could of played better defense and helped keep the Pistons under 32 points! Shaq can't beat you anymore, his MVP season is the only season he's EVER played hard for an entire season. Before and since then Shaq has been the most dominant, most of the time, however he wasn't ever going to lead a team to a championship without a clutch player helping him, that has been Bryant.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">Again, the Lakers can't win with Bryant having a bad game, it doesn't matter what Shaq does, Bryant's the key and has been for a long time already. Everyone's blaming Bryant for not getting Shaq the ball in the 4th, it wouldn't have mattered anyway, the Lakers needed a 34 point 4th quarter. Shaq wasn't going to get them, but he could of played better defense and helped keep the Pistons under 32 points! Shaq can't beat you anymore, his MVP season is the only season he's EVER played hard for an entire season. Before and since then Shaq has been the most dominant, most of the time, however he wasn't ever going to lead a team to a championship without a clutch player helping him, that has been Bryant.</div>

the reason for the lakers defeat last night was due to an accumlation of everything the lakers did, which was everyone's fault except shaq's. Shaq was the only one who showed to up play. What more could you want from him defensively? He kept people out of the key, as is his job. If the laker's perimeter defenders would have done their jobs, pistons would not have had a 32 point 4th quarter. Of the 11 shots pistons made in the 4th quarter, only 1 of them was a layup. And billups and hamilton accounted for 19 of the 32 points. It's ridiculous to criticize a guy who put up 36 points up grabbed 20 rebounds and say his effort wasn't enough. More like the effort of his teammates stunk. Mental lapses by the Lakers as a team down the stretch did them in, such as kobe taking leaning 3 point shots 6 seconds in to the shot clock, and picking up technical fouls. And as far as comparing him to Jordan goes, the outcome of the last two games should put an end to that. There is no way Jordan would have ever let Chicago fall to a 3-1 hole. If the lakers want to win the series, then it's pretty obvious they're gonna have to do it by feeding shaq. Shaq scores 10 points in the first quarter and they outscore detroit that quarter. Scores only 7 points in the second quarter and the pistons outscore them, and doesn't touch the ball for the last 6:46 where the pistons outscore them 12-7 to close out the half. Kobe ends up taking 25 shots in the game and scores 20 points. Shaq takes 21 shots and scores 36. Give shaq about 5-7 more FG attempts and that could be the difference of the game right there.

 

I know this thread is kinda old knowing he hit that clutch three pointer in Game 2 to tie this series up 1-1 which seemed so long ago and ancient history, but Kobe doesn't deserve my respect in this series. Besides the dramatic Game 2 miraculous shot, we all know the reason why he's trying to get away from Phil's triangle offense, and we absolutely know why he's shying away from Shaq this series. He wants or wanted to be the NBA Finals MVP. He wants to be glorified as the man that led his Lakers team to a 4th championship. Unfortunately, Kobe Bryant hasn't done that. And when he tries to do too much on his own, trying to overcome the double teams and the triple teams that Detroit throws at him, and shoots contested jumpshots, he gets exposed for the selfishness, arrogance, cockiness, and the egomaniac he really is. We must stop all these Kobe/MJ comparisons immediately. Michael Jordan is in a way different class than Kobe on a way different pedestal. Michael Jordan not only was the superstar and the number one priority on his respected Chicago Bulls squad, the one part that sets these two great athletes apart is Jordan made his teammates better. Jordan was never afraid to distribute. Something I have not yet seen out of Kobe Bryant.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">What more could you want from him defensively? He kept people out of the key, as is his job. If the laker's perimeter defenders would have done their jobs, pistons would not have had a 32 point 4th quarter. Of the 11 shots pistons made in the 4th quarter, only 1 of them was a layup. It's ridiculous to criticize a guy who put up 36 points up grabbed 20 rebounds and say his effort wasn't enough. And as far as comparing him to Jordan goes, the outcome of the last two games should put an end to that. If the lakers want to win the series, then it's pretty obvious they're gonna have to do it by feeding shaq. Shaq scores 10 points in the first quarter and they outscore detroit that quarter. Kobe ends up taking 25 shots in the game and scores 20 points. Shaq takes 21 shots and scores 36. Give shaq about 5-7 more FG attempts and that could be the difference of the game right there.</div>

Pick and roll defense from Shaq was bad for most of the game, every once in a while he played it well, but for the most part it was bad and led to wide open jump shots. Not criticizing his offensive game, but again his points mean nothing if Bryant has a bad game, like last night, like it usually is in the Playoffs and always been in the Finals. If anyone in the NBA compares to Jordan, it's Bryant, I admit that it's better to say that nobody compares to Jordan, but everyone is starving for a new Jordan and the closest one to him is Bryant. They could feed Shaq all they want the next game and he could score 50, but if Bryant has a bad game they will lose. It's obvious that the Pistons are willing to give Shaq all the dunks he wants, as long as Bryant doesn't have a big game, that's the winning strategy against the Lakers, forget stopping Shaq, it ain't going to happen anyway, stop Bryant and you'll win.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Emo:</div><div class="quote_post">Besides the dramatic Game 2 miraculous shot, we all know the reason why he's trying to get away from Phil's triangle offense, and we absolutely know why he's shying away from Shaq this series. He wants or wanted to be the NBA Finals MVP. He wants to be glorified as the man that led his Lakers team to a 4th championship. Unfortunately, Kobe Bryant hasn't done that. And when he tries to do too much on his own, trying to overcome the double teams and the triple teams that Detroit throws at him, and shoots contested jumpshots, he gets exposed for the selfishness, arrogance, cockiness, and the egomaniac he really is. We must stop all these Kobe/MJ comparisons immediately.</div>

The only way the Lakers were going to win this series was with Bryant winning the Finals MVP, unfortunately for Laker fans, he isn't on his way to doing that and that's why the Pistons have a 99.99999% chance of taking this championship. Well, he is the closest thing to Michael Jordan in the NBA right now...

 

Is it possible that Kobe deserves LESS respect? it seems like hes just taking valueble touches away from shaq

 

lol...the guy is considered by many professionals to be the best player in the NBA. hes called a future hall of famer, and compared to jordan. how can you give him any MORE respect? i think your bias is clouding a rational opinion.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post">lol...the guy is considered by many professionals to be the best player in the NBA. hes called a future hall of famer, and compared to jordan. how can you give him any MORE respect? i think your bias is clouding a rational opinion.</div>

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">Now I know why he wants to leave the Lakers, no matter what he does people are still going to say, "he needs to do it without Shaq." BS! All Shaq would do before Kobe became a great player was get swept, even when he had the best guard in the league and a talented team in Orlando, even when he had one of the 3 most talented Laker teams in history. I have heard people say you could put 3 or 4 SG's in Kobe's place and they still would have won 3 in a row, BS! Iverson has the best chance, Paul Pierce has an outside chance, but after that it's nobody, why? Because all those dudes are clutch preformers, Shaq needs a clutch player to get the big baskets because he can't, because his free throw shooting discourages teammates and probably even himself. Kobe is the one beating teams when it counts, Shaq won't beat you...

No doubt about it, Bryant should be in Jordan's class...</div>

and neither of them won anything before phil, so whats your point?

you talk about clutch buckets, but the daddy brings way more intangibles to the court then bryant does.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post">Is it possible that Kobe deserves LESS respect? it seems like hes just taking valueble touches away from shaq</div>

I just heard Larry Brown say on the radio that Shaq's biggest impact in these playoffs has been on the defensive end, especially against the Spurs and Wolves. This from a guy who just saw him dominate his team on the offensive side of the ball, of course he seems to be the only guy who knows that Shaq can't beat you with offense, unless Bryant is playing well too.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post">and neither of them won anything before phil, so whats your point?

you talk about clutch buckets, but the daddy brings way more intangibles to the court then bryant does.</div>

Shaq was getting swept every year before Bryant became one of the better players in the NBA. It wasn't until he got clutch play from one of his teammates that he won, so toss those "intangibles" aside.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">I just heard Larry Brown say on the radio that Shaq's biggest impact in these playoffs has been on the defensive end, especially against the Spurs and Wolves. This from a guy who just saw him dominate his team on the offensive side of the ball, of course he seems to be the only guy who knows that Shaq can't beat you with offense, unless Bryant is playing well too.</div>


You just made my point for me. Shaq had 36 points and 20 rebounds in last nights game but his biggest impact is still on the defensive end! shaq can dominate games without putting up huge numbers. kobe cant. kobe was 8 - 25 last night. u think maybe he should have fed shaq a weee bit more?



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq was getting swept every year before Bryant became one of the better players in the NBA. It wasn't until he got clutch play from one of his teammates that he won, so toss those "intangibles" aside.</div>



uh....ut....ppppPPPPPPPPPffffWHAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

aw jeez. im sorry. i tried so hard not to laugh.


Kobe, in Jordans class. wow. what a joke. Kobes not even the best player on his team. how can you compare him to the greatest of all time??? Kobe was incredible for about a quarter and a half this series. otherr than that its been all detroit and kobes hurting the team more than helping them. If kobe was like Jordan hed be taking over this series and be an unstoppable scoring machine. but hes kobe and the best thing he can do for the lakers is NOT even try to score as much but give the ball to shaq

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post">You just made my point for me. Shaq had 36 points and 20 rebounds in last nights game but his biggest impact is still on the defensive end! shaq can dominate games without putting up huge numbers. kobe cant. kobe was 8 - 25 last night. u think maybe he should have fed shaq a weee bit more?

Kobe, in Jordans class. wow. what a joke. Kobes not even the best player on his team. how can you compare him to the greatest of all time??? Kobe was incredible for about a quarter and a half this series. otherr than that its been all detroit and kobes hurting the team more than helping them. If kobe was like Jordan hed be taking over this series and be an unstoppable scoring machine. but hes kobe and the best thing he can do for the lakers is NOT even try to score as much but give the ball to shaq</div>

Are you kidding me? Brown said his biggest impact is on defense, in the Spurs and Wolves series, NOT in most the Pistons series, NOT in last night's game. The point you were making is that Bryant is taking valuable touches away from Shaq, on offense! Brown thinks his biggest contibution to the Lakers has been on defense, point being, Shaq's offense doesn't worry Brown.

Of course he's hurting the team more than helping it, he plays bad the Lakers lose, since he's been playing bad he's hurting the team. Again, if anybody is in Jordan's class in today's NBA it's Bryant, Jordan shouldn't be compared to anyone in the league today, but there will always be comparisons and the most logical one in today's NBA is Bryant. The Pistons want Shaq to try and beat them, he won't, he could shoot 30 shots in the next game but if Bryant doesn't play better than he did last night they won't win.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rocket Launch:</div><div class="quote_post">Of course he's hurting the team more than helping it, he plays bad the Lakers lose</div>
Actually Rocket, the only reason the Lakers lost that game IMO was Kobe's greed. He was ice cold, everyone knew it, yet he kept on shooting, and shooting, and shooting. All the while Shaq Daddy was having a great game.

Kobe needs to understand that at times he isn't the superstar and Shaq needs the ball at these times. In game 4 Shaq was the best player. Kobe needs to recognize this and feed him the ball.

IMO Kobe doesn't need Shaq because he gets the ball basically every play on the second or third pass, can come off screens and shoot almost all the time. Kobe only needs Shaq to draw 2 or 3 defenders. Shaq needs someone to feed him the ball, and when a player starts hogging the ball like Kobe did in game 3 IMO Shaq is useless, thus he trys harder on defense which was also evident in game 3.

Basically, Kobe gets all the respect he needs, and this thread's title should be changed because we aren't even talking about it anymore.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Streetball2k3:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually Rocket, the only reason the Lakers lost that game IMO was Kobe's greed. He was ice cold, everyone knew it, yet he kept on shooting, and shooting, and shooting. All the while Shaq Daddy was having a great game.

Basically, Kobe gets all the respect he needs, and this thread's title should be changed because we aren't even talking about it anymore.</div>

They lost because Bryant was cold... Greedy players don't win championships...

No he doesn't, everyone and their grandma still think Shaq is the key to the Lakers even though they just lost by 10 with him having his best game of the playoffs! Like I said it doesn't matter what Shaq gets if Bryant is playing bad, missing 68% of his shots or not making plays for his teammates like he usually does when his shots aren't falling.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rocket Launch:</div><div class="quote_post">Greedy players don't win championships...</div>
Exactly, which is also exactly why the Lakers aren't going to win the Championship this year!

Kobe Bryant will always be respected and he doesn't need anymore of it.

Kobe played cold and lost the game for the Lakers, and now he goes and jokes around with the media about it, Kobe needs to put the blame on himself and have a great game 5.

That IMO is the only way he will be respected more like you want.