wow. youre really in denial arent you. jordan would never have a game like that in the NBA finals and if he did and saw that a teamate was hot he wouldve fed him the ball. you would be wise to listen to streetball23k
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Streetball2k3:</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly, which is also exactly why the Lakers aren't going to win the Championship this year! Kobe Bryant will always be respected and he doesn't need anymore of it. Kobe played cold and lost the game for the Lakers, and now he goes and jokes around with the media about it, Kobe needs to put the blame on himself and have a great game 5. That IMO is the only way he will be respected more like you want.</div> Fine, he was greedy for one night... Sure he lost the game for them because he had a bad game, the Lakers won't win a game against the Pistons without him playing good to great basketball. You know they did ask him about his shot selection and he said sometimes it's good sometimes it's horrible and that it's like that every game for him. Still I never really liked his attitude anyway, but I know his game is the key to the Lakers... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post">wow. youre really in denial arent you. jordan would never have a game like that in the NBA finals and if he did and saw that a teamate was hot he wouldve fed him the ball. you would be wise to listen to streetball23k</div> Again, I keep saying that nobody should be compared to Jordan... Bryant would be wise to play a great game 5, 6, and 7 only then will the Lakers have a chance... If Bryant doesn't figure Prince out, the one and only Kobe Stopper, the Lakers will lose on Tuesday, won't matter how many points or touches Shaq gets...
the lakers are not only going to win if kobe has a good game... the lakers need the team as a whole to have a good game. kobe coulda dropped 36 last night, and had shaq only had 20 points, they still woulda lost. the team does not solely ride on kobe. shaq has carried most of the load throughout the years and they've won... now that kobe is trying to take matters in to his own hands, they're down 3-1. is it that hard to see that? and your original post stated <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No doubt about it, Bryant should be in Jordan's class...</div> it didn't say kobe is the closest one to being in jordan's class. the original comment is clear-cut.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">the lakers are not only going to win if kobe has a good game... the lakers need the team as a whole to have a good game. kobe coulda dropped 36 last night, and had shaq only had 20 points, they still woulda lost. the team does not solely ride on kobe. shaq has carried most of the load throughout the years and they've won... now that kobe is trying to take matters in to his own hands, they're down 3-1. is it that hard to see that? and your original post stated it didn't say kobe is the closest one to being in jordan's class. the original comment is clear-cut.</div> The sole reason a team wins is never on one player, still the Lakers usually don't win when Bryant has a bad game. If Bryant got 30+ the Lakers will win, they would of won last night too, they haven't lost one game where Bryant goes over 30 in this year's playoffs, but they've lost all the game Shaq goes over 30 in, hmmm... I'll stick by that statement, I'm not about to argue that now though, way too many people that don't want to see anyone reach Jordan's level.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">Fine, he was greedy for one night... </div> ONE game? think about it this way: The Lakers lost game 4 by 8 points right? Shaq scored 36 points on 16-21 shooting. thats about a 75 % clip. Kobe scored 20 points on 8-25 shooting. thats about a 30 % clip. still with me? Now, If Kobe gives up 6 - 8 of those shots (in which case he still wouldve gotten to chuck 17-19 of 'em which is verrrrry generous for the night he was having) to Shaq who would've undoubtly made at least 4 or more of em, that defecit is null and the lakers likely win the game!! It DOES matter how many touches shaq gets because no matter how they defend him he can still score when he wants to. the same cant be said for kobe. he has trouble when doubled or gaurded by a great defender like any other guard. NO you stillllllllllll wanna try and tell me that Kobe is the key to that offense?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">The sole reason a team wins is never on one player, still the Lakers usually don't win when Bryant has a bad game. If Bryant got 30+ the Lakers will win, they would of won last night too, they haven't lost one game where Bryant goes over 30 in this year's playoffs, but they've lost all the game Shaq goes over 30 in, hmmm... I'll stick by that statement, I'm not about to argue that now though, way too many people that don't want to see anyone reach Jordan's level.</div> when kobe goes off for 30, shaq also doesn't hurt the cause by going 8-25. shaq will defer to kobe when kobe is hot, but kobe doesn't know how to reciprocate that. As far as the lakers can't win w/out bryant having a good game... Go back to game 1 of the houston series, kobe shot 4-19 for 16 points, lakers still won... shaq had 20-17 that game... Game 4 of that series kobe shoots 7-21 for 18, lakers win... Without shaq this series, lakers would probably lose each game by a margin of 15... he's really the only reason why the lakers have been somewhat close in 2 out of the 3 games the lakers lost. sure, without kobe they wouldn't have won game 2, but without shaq, that opportunity most likely isn't even there.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post">ONE game? Now, If Kobe gives up 6 - 8 of those shots (in which case he still wouldve gotten to chuck 17-19 of 'em which is verrrrry generous for the night he was having) to Shaq who would've undoubtly made at least 4 or more of em, that defecit is null and the lakers likely win the game!! It DOES matter how many touches shaq gets because no matter how they defend him he can still score when he wants to. the same cant be said for kobe. he has trouble when doubled or gaurded by a great defender like any other guard. NO you stillllllllllll wanna try and tell me that Kobe is the key to that offense? </div> What for the number crunching? The number that you rolled your eyes at was one, you gave one example, one game that he might have been greedy. Shaq can score when he wants to, but he won't beat the Pistons without Bryant's help, as a matter of fact he has never won anything of any worth without Bryant's help. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post"> As far as the lakers can't win w/out bryant having a good game... Go back to game 1 of the houston series, kobe shot 4-19 for 16 points, lakers still won... shaq had 20-17 that game... Game 4 of that series kobe shoots 7-21 for 18, lakers win... Without shaq this series, lakers would probably lose each game by a margin of 15... he's really the only reason why the lakers have been somewhat close in 2 out of the 3 games the lakers lost. sure, without kobe they wouldn't have won game 2, but without shaq, that opportunity most likely isn't even there.</div> That's fine I did say usually and the Rockets aren't exactly elite competition... Close matters? I never said that the Lakers could be successful without Shaq, but they aren't beating the Pistons without good games from Bryant. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post">bingo. without shaq. the lakers dont even make the playoffs</div> As long as Payton and Malone are with Bryant they would have, getting to the Finals is another story, they wouldn't have made it... Then again without Bryant Shaq goes down as the most dominant player ever in any sport, besides baseball and Bonds, to never win a title...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">What for the number crunching? The number that you rolled your eyes at was one, you gave one example, one game that he might have been greedy. Shaq can score when he wants to, but he won't beat the Pistons without Bryant's help, as a matter of fact he has never won anything of any worth without Bryant's help. That's fine I did say usually and the Rockets aren't exactly elite competition... Close matters? I never said that the Lakers could be successful without Shaq, but they aren't beating the Pistons without good games from Bryant.</div> if shaq has a bad game, lakers usually don't win either. shaq could have won the three rings w/ the second best SG in the league during those years. give kobe the second best center during those years and he doesn't even make the finals... given there are better guards than centers in the league, if kobe is as great as you make him out to be, he should be able to do just fine w/ the second best center... but he wouldn't even be able to do that. and if kobe can only pull out 1 good game out 4, then this thread is stupid cuz if he needs 4 games to pull out 1 good game, he doesn't deserve more respect.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">and if kobe can only pull out 1 good game out 4, then this thread is stupid cuz if he needs 4 games to pull out 1 good game, he doesn't deserve more respect.</div> Then again if his only good game is the only game the Lakers win he does deserve more respect, however I didn't start this thread to discuss this series, Bryant has been underappreciated for years now. Besides he has to deal with the best defense and best defender, at least on him, in the league, Shaq doesn't have much resistance down low, of course he never has. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">if shaq has a bad game, lakers usually don't win either. shaq could have won the three rings w/ the second best SG in the league during those years. give kobe the second best center during those years and he doesn't even make the finals... given there are better guards than centers in the league, if kobe is as great as you make him out to be, he should be able to do just fine w/ the second best center... but he wouldn't even be able to do that. </div> With Iverson? Probably so, I don't think the gap between Kobe and Iverson is that big. Giving anyone the second best center in the years the Lakers won the championship with Shaq isn't fair, because this has been BY FAR the worst center era in NBA history. Give Bryant Duncan and he beats Shaq and any other shooting guard, that's much more fair.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">Then again if his only good game is the only game the Lakers win he does deserve more respect, however I didn't start this thread to discuss this series, Bryant has been underappreciated for years now. Besides he has to deal with the best defense and best defender, at least on him, in the league, Shaq doesn't have much resistance down low, of course he never has. With Iverson? Probably so, I don't think the gap between Kobe and Iverson is that big. Giving anyone the second best center in the years the Lakers won the championship with Shaq isn't fair, because this has been BY FAR the worst center era in NBA history. Give Bryant Duncan and he beats Shaq and any other shooting guard, that's much more fair.</div> how does he deserve more respect if it takes him 4 games to get 1 good one out? that makes no sense. no one underappreciates bryant. everyone here is in agreement he is the best 2-guard in the league, and some would even argue he is the best player in the league, and im sure everyone here would have him in their top 5, i personally have him ranked as 3. how is he underappreciated? bryant isnt the only player in the league who draws the toughest defenders night in and night out... several players around the league do... and is it really shaq's fault no one can guard him? shaq is not the best player on the lakers, but he is the most important. shaq would be the most important player on every team, but doesn't necessarily have to be the best player on the team. kobe needs to thank shaq for helping him win 3 titles. Without kobe, shaq would still have at least 1 title, without shaq, kobe would have 0.
Kobe Bryant is so overrated, why does this guy have such a big ego? He goes out and shoots 8-25 , when Shaq is on fire going 16-21. Kobe is nowhere near MJ. Let him go to a team where he is the focal point of the offense. He is going to strugelle so much. He is nothing without shaq
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">no one underappreciates bryant. everyone here is in agreement he is the best 2-guard in the league, and some would even argue he is the best player in the league, and im sure everyone here would have him in their top 5, i personally have him ranked as 3. how is he underappreciated? and is it really shaq's fault no one can guard him? kobe needs to thank shaq for helping him win 3 titles. Without kobe, shaq would still have at least 1 title, without shaq, kobe would have 0.</div> Bryant always has that "He only plays great because Shaq plays with him" he's never looked at as a great individual talent, because Shaq is on his team. Nobody ever says Jordan wouldn't win anything without Pippen, when in fact he never won anything without Pippen and he never won a championship before Pippen became the best at his position, just like Shaq never won a championship before Bryant became the best at his position. Everything else in your post I generally agree with, WOW!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting YaoMing03-04:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe Bryant is so overrated, why does this guy have such a big ego? He goes out and shoots 8-25 , when Shaq is on fire going 16-21. Kobe is nowhere near MJ. Let him go to a team where he is the focal point of the offense. He is going to strugelle so much. He is nothing without shaq</div> What exactly was Shaq without Bryant? A dominant player without any crowns, Bryant is having the worst playoff series of his career even worst than the Utah series a few years back. He had 56 in a game without Shaq, and if I'm not mistaken all those points were before the 4th quarter!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">Bryant always has that "He only plays great because Shaq plays with him" he's never looked at as a great individual talent, because Shaq is on his team. Nobody ever says Jordan wouldn't win anything without Pippen, when in fact he never won anything without Pippen and he never won a championship before Pippen became the best at his position, just like Shaq never won a championship before Bryant became the best at his position. Everything else in your post I generally agree with, WOW!</div> Alot of kobe's success does have to do w/ shaq, but i dont think it goes as far as saying without shaq, he's nobody. It's pretty much universally agreed upon that there is no better 2-guard in the league. And as far as pippen goes, that guy is overrated... he was a damn good player, but definitely did not deserve to be considered one of the all-time greats, and that was proved when jordan left. Pippen was not the best at his position. He is somewhat in the same boat as kobe is in right now... benefitting from the greatness of his teammate. But pippen benefitted much much much more than kobe did. Again, Scottie Pippen was never the best at his position, and those who regard him as one of the greatest are mistaking. Kobe however, is already regarded as a great and is the best at his position, and he plays w/ another guy who is the best at his position. Kobe and Shaq benefit from each other more than Jordan benefitted from Pippen. And both shaq and kobe are regarded as great individual talents.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">What for the number crunching? The number that you rolled your eyes at was one, you gave one example, one game that he might have been greedy. Shaq can score when he wants to, but he won't beat the Pistons without Bryant's help, as a matter of fact he has never won anything of any worth without Bryant's help. That's fine I did say usually and the Rockets aren't exactly elite competition... Close matters? I never said that the Lakers could be successful without Shaq, but they aren't beating the Pistons without good games from Bryant. As long as Payton and Malone are with Bryant they would have, getting to the Finals is another story, they wouldn't have made it... Then again without Bryant Shaq goes down as the most dominant player ever in any sport, besides baseball and Bonds, to never win a title...</div> as long as malone and payton are with shaq he would
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post"> And as far as pippen goes, that guy is overrated... he was a damn good player, but definitely did not deserve to be considered one of the all-time greats, and that was proved when jordan left. Pippen was not the best at his position. He is somewhat in the same boat as kobe is in right now... benefitting from the greatness of his teammate. But pippen benefitted much much much more than kobe did. Again, Scottie Pippen was never the best at his position, and those who regard him as one of the greatest are mistaking. Kobe however, is already regarded as a great and is the best at his position, and he plays w/ another guy who is the best at his position. Kobe and Shaq benefit from each other more than Jordan benefitted from Pippen. And both shaq and kobe are regarded as great individual talents.</div> During the time the Bulls were winning championships and probably a few seasons before there was no better small foward in the league, period. The season right after Jordan left the Bulls won 55 games, Pippen almost won MVP, and if it wasn't for a dumb foul they could of gone to the Finals. That dude was arguably the best player in the NBA when Jordan was gone, at the very least a top 3 player even after he came back. You're right about Bryant and Pippen being on the same boat, both of them will be underappreciated because they play/ed with dominant/great players. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post"> as long as malone and payton are with shaq he would</div> They don't get passed San Antonio without Bryant...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">During the time the Bulls were winning championships and probably a few seasons before there was no better small foward in the league, period. The season right after Jordan left the Bulls won 55 games, Pippen almost won MVP, and if it wasn't for a dumb foul they could of gone to the Finals. That dude was arguably the best player in the NBA when Jordan was gone, at the very least a top 3 player even after he came back. You're right about Bryant and Pippen being on the same boat, both of them will be underappreciated because they play/ed with dominant/great players. They don't get passed San Antonio without Bryant...</div> Pippen never took the bulls to the conference finals, he only took them to the conference semi's. A few season before the bull's won their first title, Pippen was definitely not the best SF in the league... There was this guy named larry bird you may have heard of... And during the Bulls first title runs Pippen made zero All-NBA first teams, not because he was underappreciated, simply because there were better players. Pippen made three first team selections, two during the years jordan was gone, and one the year chicago won 72 games... Pippen was definitely not the best player in the league during the years jordan left the league, there was still hakeem, robinson, and malone all in their prime. Not to mention ewing who is probably overlooked because MJ screwed him over so many times, as well as barkley. Again, look what pippen did w/out jordan. Nothing. Conference semi's was the best he could do. Pippen could not dominate a game like MJ, Shaq, and Kobe can.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">A few season before the bull's won their first title, Pippen was definitely not the best SF in the league... There was this guy named larry bird you may have heard of... And during the Bulls first title runs Pippen made zero All-NBA first teams, not because he was underappreciated, simply because there were better players. Pippen made three first team selections, two during the years jordan was gone, and one the year chicago won 72 games... Pippen was definitely not the best player in the league during the years jordan left the league, there was still hakeem, robinson, and malone all in their prime. Again, look what pippen did w/out jordan. Nothing. Conference semi's was the best he could do. Pippen could not dominate a game like MJ, Shaq, and Kobe can.</div> 91-92 Mullin got the highest SF honor for scoring a ton, but all around Pippen was the better player, 92-93 it was the same situation, but with Dominique, if you ask a scout who had the more complete, impact game, they'd tell you Pippen did. I did say probably and arguably when mentioning best player titles, and his complete game deserved some best player recognition, he had it all. Pippen won 55 games without Jordan, only 2 less than they won WITH Jordan, got out of the first round without Jordan, pushed the Finals bound Knicks to 7, and would have been Finals bound had they beat the Knicks. Lets not forget the season he had with the Trail Blazers, he was basically one quarter away from winning another championship. Without Pippen Jordan never had a .500 record, never got out of the First Round, all he did was win scoring titles and sell shoes. To me it's the same situation with Pippen as it is with Bryant, they don't get enough credit, because Jordan and Shaq got most of it. I mean you're not the only one to think that Pippen was overrated because of Jordan, you'll ask what Pippen did without Jordan, which was plenty, but nobody could mention what Jordan did without Pippen, which was hardly anything.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">91-92 Mullin got the highest SF honor for scoring a ton, but all around Pippen was the better player, 92-93 it was the same situation, but with Dominique, if you ask a scout who had the more complete, impact game, they'd tell you Pippen did. I did say probably and arguably when mentioning best player titles, and his complete game deserved some best player recognition, he had it all. Pippen won 55 games without Jordan, only 2 less than they won WITH Jordan, got out of the first round without Jordan, pushed the Finals bound Knicks to 7, and would have been Finals bound had they beat the Knicks. Lets not forget the season he had with the Trail Blazers, he was basically one quarter away from winning another championship. Without Pippen Jordan never had a .500 record, never got out of the First Round, all he did was win scoring titles and sell shoes. To me it's the same situation with Pippen as it is with Bryant, they don't get enough credit, because Jordan and Shaq got most of it. I mean you're not the only one to think that Pippen was overrated because of Jordan, you'll ask what Pippen did without Jordan, which was plenty, but nobody could mention what Jordan did without Pippen, which was hardly anything.</div> Jordan won the biggest game of his career w/out pippen. Don't forget, Game 6 of the '98 Finals, Pippen left very early in the game with a back injury, and only came back for the last few minutes. Jordan put that team on his back and you know the rest of the story. Mullin was a hell of a player in his day, he didn't only get honors because he was a scorer, same goes w/ 'nique. All-NBA first team is not decided on by who scores the most points, its for all-around play throughout the season. It has always been that way. Stackhouse averaged 29.8ppg in '00-01 and didnt even get third team. Yea, Pippen took the Bulls to the playoffs w/out jordan, but he didn't do much there. He also had a team that had won 3 titles together minus one player. Jordan on the other hand had to adapt to a whole new team and was the focal point from the get-go. And that portland team pippen played on was loaded w/ talent. Sheed at his best, Steve Smith at his best, Stoudamire was playing great basketball then, Brian Grant was a monster back then. And to say pippen doesn't get enough credit is BS... he was honored as one of the 50 greatest ever... and kobe is recognized as one of the best players today. They get enough credit, and in Pippen's case, he probably got more than he deserved.
