Blah Blah Blah, Kobe gets the respect that is due to him. It's just now that the refs are calling a good game and a fair game that's not going in LA's direction, eveyone's seeing Kobe cry and thinking that it's not his fault. I got an idea !!! Why don't the Lakers get their heads out of their behinds and starting playing basketball and stop worrying about the calls on the floor. Good players put that crap aside and overcome it. Man, this is a popular thread. You guys are hitting it like crazy! Good Stuff.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">Mullin was a hell of a player in his day, he didn't only get honors because he was a scorer, same goes w/ 'nique. Yea, Pippen took the Bulls to the playoffs w/out jordan, but he didn't do much there. He also had a team that had won 3 titles together minus one player. Jordan on the other hand had to adapt to a whole new team and was the focal point from the get-go. And that portland team pippen played on was loaded w/ talent. Sheed at his best, Steve Smith at his best, Stoudamire was playing great basketball then, Brian Grant was a monster back then. And to say pippen doesn't get enough credit is BS... he was honored as one of the 50 greatest ever... and kobe is recognized as one of the best players today. They get enough credit, and in Pippen's case, he probably got more than he deserved.</div> I'm not about to argue great player vs great player, with Pippen vs Mullin/Wilkins, but I'd still take Pippen because of his defense and all around game. Pippen still did more in the playoffs without Jordan than Jordan did without Pippen, did much more in the regular season as well, in terms of winning. Without Pippen Jordan won as many playoff games as Francis and Yao have, ouch! Minus one player? Here you are praising Jordan and you're going to say it's just minus 1 player, ok. They lost arguably the greatest player in history, replaced him with who? Easy to remember Pete Miers right? They only lose 2 more games than the season before, conclusion, Pippen can do well without Jordan and that Chicago team had A LOT of talent and great coaching. It was loaded with talent, but that doesn't mean he didn't play a huge role on that team, and that he was still one decent Blazer quarter away from winning a 7th ring. He is one of the top 50, so why say he's overrated? Jordan got all the credit, the perception has always been that Pippen was Robin to Jordan's Batman, when in reality Pippen was Batman and Jordan was Superman. They worked together, just like Bryant and Shaq do, Pippen should have never been asked to prove his greatness without Jordan, and Bryant shouldn't be asked to prove his greatness without Shaq. Only difference between the 2 is that Pippen was on the way down when Jordan left him for good and when Shaq leaves Bryant will still be on the way up, so he will end up proving himself, just sit back and watch the show.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not about to argue great player vs great player, with Pippen vs Mullin/Wilkins, but I'd still take Pippen because of his defense and all around game. Pippen still did more in the playoffs without Jordan than Jordan did without Pippen, did much more in the regular season as well, in terms of winning. Without Pippen Jordan won as many playoff games as Francis and Yao have, ouch! Minus one player? Here you are praising Jordan and you're going to say it's just minus 1 player, ok. They lost arguably the greatest player in history, replaced him with who? Easy to remember Pete Miers right? They only lose 2 more games than the season before, conclusion, Pippen can do well without Jordan and that Chicago team had A LOT of talent and great coaching. It was loaded with talent, but that doesn't mean he didn't play a huge role on that team, and that he was still one decent Blazer quarter away from winning a 7th ring. He is one of the top 50, so why say he's overrated? Jordan got all the credit, the perception has always been that Pippen was Robin to Jordan's Batman, when in reality Pippen was Batman and Jordan was Superman. They worked together, just like Bryant and Shaq do, Pippen should have never been asked to prove his greatness without Jordan, and Bryant shouldn't be asked to prove his greatness without Shaq. Only difference between the 2 is that Pippen was on the way down when Jordan left him for good and when Shaq leaves Bryant will still be on the way up, so he will end up proving himself, just sit back and watch the show.</div> Like i said before, Pippen did it with a team who had won 3 titles in the years prior. Sure he lost the greatest player ever, but that team still knew how to play. They knew what it took to win games. What did Jordan have before Pippen came? Dave Corzine? Yea, theres a real winner. Jordan picked up that team when they were garbage and made them in to an instant playoff team. Pippen was still left w/ a playoff caliber team around him when MJ left. Redo the 50 greatest list, i'm sure most people would leave pippen off now, and kobe, duncan, garnett, AI, and the like would be on. Jordan and shaq would still remain though. To knock Jordan by saying Pippen did more w/out Jordan than Jordan did w/out Pippen is pretty stupid. When it all boils down to it, MJ was the greatest to ever play, Pippen is "arguably" a top 50 player (i argue that he is not). The circumstances each were put in without each other were totally different. Jordan was put in to rebuild the team, Pippen already had the pieces around him.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">Like i said before, Pippen did it with a team who had won 3 titles in the years prior. Sure he lost the greatest player ever, but that team still knew how to play. They knew what it took to win games. What did Jordan have before Pippen came? Dave Corzine? Yea, theres a real winner. Jordan picked up that team when they were garbage and made them in to an instant playoff team. Pippen was still left w/ a playoff caliber team around him when MJ left. Redo the 50 greatest list, i'm sure most people would leave pippen off now, and kobe, duncan, garnett, AI, and the like would be on. Jordan and shaq would still remain though. To knock Jordan by saying Pippen did more w/out Jordan than Jordan did w/out Pippen is pretty stupid. When it all boils down to it, MJ was the greatest to ever play, Pippen is "arguably" a top 50 player (i argue that he is not). The circumstances each were put in without each other were totally different. Jordan was put in to rebuild the team, Pippen already had the pieces around him.</div> So, minus Jordan the Bulls are only 2 games worse? They were one of the 3 most talented teams in the league, but a team that lost the best player ever a few weeks before the season began, and that impact was only -2 wins. Jordan did have some talent with him just not enough, but it wouldn't have mattered much anyway, during his early years he was mostly about himself, it took him a few seasons to mature into a team player. Pippen would still be a top 50 player (25-35) if the list is redone, you can't ignore the rings, you can't ignore the fact that he was the second best player on 2 dynasties, or that he was one of the top 5 or so defensive and versatile players of all time. No knocking Jordan from me, I'm just stating facts and trying to point out how dumb the argument that Kobe has to do anything without Shaq really is. Circumstances don't matter too much, great players make their situations better no matter how bad they are, Jordan wasn't great back then, he was the most exciting player in the league, but not great. Game's about to start, lets not get off topic, Bryant shows his worth this game, 30+ points = Laker win...
why dont u just stop whining. i was whatching espn today and they were showing some jordan highlights. theres really no comparison. jordan won 6 titles without a dominant big man. he was the man on that team and he was a guard. thats so incredible. kobe is a star but hes not the main reason the lakers win. face it
Here is another stat that shows Kobe does not deserve more respect because the Lakers and Kobe need Shaq on the floor. Shaq has been on the bench for 20 minutes in this series, and in those minutes the Pistons outscored the Lakers 40-19. IMO that just shows the Kobe cannot win without Shaq because there is no shotblocker on the floor to get scared off when people blow by their defender.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">So, minus Jordan the Bulls are only 2 games worse? They were one of the 3 most talented teams in the league, but a team that lost the best player ever a few weeks before the season began, and that impact was only -2 wins. Jordan did have some talent with him just not enough, but it wouldn't have mattered much anyway, during his early years he was mostly about himself, it took him a few seasons to mature into a team player. Pippen would still be a top 50 player (25-35) if the list is redone, you can't ignore the rings, you can't ignore the fact that he was the second best player on 2 dynasties, or that he was one of the top 5 or so defensive and versatile players of all time. No knocking Jordan from me, I'm just stating facts and trying to point out how dumb the argument that Kobe has to do anything without Shaq really is. Circumstances don't matter too much, great players make their situations better no matter how bad they are, Jordan wasn't great back then, he was the most exciting player in the league, but not great. Game's about to start, lets not get off topic, Bryant shows his worth this game, 30+ points = Laker win...</div> We all know the postseason is a totally different season. I don't care if the bulls only lost 2 more games w/out jordan... Minny had the best record in the league this year, Detroit didn't even have a top 5 record in the league... In post season play, Pippen didn't have what it took. Thats where the real players prove themselves. Kobe gets the respect he deserves... When it was time to shine, he didn't shine. Kobe had a huge chance to prove himself, and didn't do it when shaq was out w/ foul trouble. Jordan has always been great, i dont know what you're talking about... He couldnt get to the next level because he didn't have the pieces, but as a player, he was still one of the best in the league... You don't average 30-5-5 without being great... And we all know about his 32.5-8-8 season. And read streetball2k3's comment about what Al Michael's said about shaq's +/-
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post">why dont u just stop whining. i was whatching espn today and they were showing some jordan highlights. theres really no comparison. jordan won 6 titles without a dominant big man. he was the man on that team and he was a guard. thats so incredible. kobe is a star but hes not the main reason the lakers win. face it</div> If anyone was to make a Jordan comparison to anyone in the NBA today it would be Kobe Bryant, it's not really fair, but he's the closest to Jordan right now. No he's not the main reason, but it's not just get the ball down to Shaq and get out of the way, like it never was just get the ball to Jordan and get out of the way. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Streetball2k3:</div><div class="quote_post">Here is another stat that shows Kobe does not deserve more respect because the Lakers and Kobe need Shaq on the floor. Shaq has been on the bench for 20 minutes in this series, and in those minutes the Pistons outscored the Lakers 40-19. IMO that just shows the Kobe cannot win without Shaq because there is no shotblocker on the floor to get scared off when people blow by their defender.</div> Of course they need Shaq on the floor, nobody said Bryant could do it alone... Shot blocking wasn't much of a factor in this series anyway, the Pistons didn't get too many penetration layups until last night's game, pick and roll defense was huge though, the Lakers played that horribly. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">We all know the postseason is a totally different season. I don't care if the bulls only lost 2 more games w/out jordan... Minny had the best record in the league this year, Detroit didn't even have a top 5 record in the league... In post season play, Pippen didn't have what it took. Thats where the real players prove themselves. Kobe gets the respect he deserves... When it was time to shine, he didn't shine. Kobe had a huge chance to prove himself, and didn't do it when shaq was out w/ foul trouble. Jordan has always been great, i dont know what you're talking about... He couldnt get to the next level because he didn't have the pieces, but as a player, he was still one of the best in the league... You don't average 30-5-5 without being great... And we all know about his 32.5-8-8 season. And read streetball2k3's comment about what Al Michael's said about shaq's +/-</div> Pippen wasn't going to take that team to a championship by himself, on the other hand neither was Jordan, by themselves they could keep the Bulls contending for a championship, but niether was going to win one without the other. This was Bryant's worst series of his career, no coincidence that it was also the Phil led Lakers worst series as well. That was not the truly great Jordan back then, who cares what his numbers were, the truly great Jordan was the one who won and elevated the play of his teammates, not the highlight show of his early years. He couldn't get to the next level because he never became a truly great team player until Phil Jackson came around and challenged him to be a greater than he was, just like he challenged Shaq to be greater than he was and later did the same for Bryant.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post"> Pippen wasn't going to take that team to a championship by himself, on the other hand neither was Jordan, by themselves they could keep the Bulls contending for a championship, but niether was going to win one without the other. This was Bryant's worst series of his career, no coincidence that it was also the Phil led Lakers worst series as well. That was not the truly great Jordan back then, who cares what his numbers were, the truly great Jordan was the one who won and elevated the play of his teammates, not the highlight show of his early years. He couldn't get to the next level because he never became a truly great team player until Phil Jackson came around and challenged him to be a greater than he was, just like he challenged Shaq to be greater than he was and later did the same for Bryant.</div> No one can get a team a title alone, Jordan realized that... Bryant didn't. But you can't say Pippen could lead the bulls without jordan better than jordan can lead the bulls without pippen. If you asked 100 people who would they rather have lead their team during the bulls era, jordan or pippen, 100 people would tell you jordan. If you ask 100 people the same question about shaq and kobe, you wouldn't get the same results. You don't get it... Pippen was a damn good player, but he was never great, he rode jordan's coattails more than kobe was riding shaqs... pippen NEVER proved his greatness, and he had several opportunities to do it. Dropping 32.5-8-8 and losing is not because you are being flashy, its because your team doesn't have what it takes while on the other hand you're doing all you can do win... But because your "team" can't get over the hump, that doesn't mean the player isn't great.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">No one can get a team a title alone, Jordan realized that... Bryant didn't. But you can't say Pippen could lead the bulls without jordan better than jordan can lead the bulls without pippen. If you asked 100 people who would they rather have lead their team during the bulls era, jordan or pippen, 100 people would tell you jordan. If you ask 100 people the same question about shaq and kobe, you wouldn't get the same results. You don't get it... Pippen was a damn good player, but he was never great, he rode jordan's coattails more than kobe was riding shaqs... pippen NEVER proved his greatness, and he had several opportunities to do it. Dropping 32.5-8-8 and losing is not because you are being flashy, its because your team doesn't have what it takes while on the other hand you're doing all you can do win... But because your "team" can't get over the hump, that doesn't mean the player isn't great.</div> Bryant didn't? No, I think the Lakers realized that against the Pistons, Bryant didn't play well, Shaq did, and they were embarrassed. I didn't and wouldn't ever say Pippen could lead the Bulls better than Jordan could, but neither was winning a championship without the other and both were great enough to keep a team contending for a championship. I'd be one of those 100 people who take Jordan as well, I'd still take Bryant over O'neal though, especially now that Shaq is on a decline. What did you need Pippen to do to prove his greatness? It's not right, the guy won 6 championships, was one of the most versatile players ever, was one of the 5 or so greatest defensive forwards ever, he wasn't going to win a championship on the Bulls without Jordan if that's what you're talking about. If you call the early Jordan the great Jordan that's fine, I would have been extremely disappointed to never see a greater Jordan than that guy, it's like watching McGrady now, all that talent, but zero results.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">Bryant didn't? No, I think the Lakers realized that against the Pistons, Bryant didn't play well, Shaq did, and they were embarrassed. I didn't and wouldn't ever say Pippen could lead the Bulls better than Jordan could, but neither was winning a championship without the other and both were great enough to keep a team contending for a championship. I'd be one of those 100 people who take Jordan as well, I'd still take Bryant over O'neal though, especially now that Shaq is on a decline. What did you need Pippen to do to prove his greatness? It's not right, the guy won 6 championships, was one of the most versatile players ever, was one of the 5 or so greatest defensive forwards ever, he wasn't going to win a championship on the Bulls without Jordan if that's what you're talking about. If you call the early Jordan the great Jordan that's fine, I would have been extremely disappointed to never see a greater Jordan than that guy, it's like watching McGrady now, all that talent, but zero results.</div> Jordan could have won titles w/ another really good SF, he didnt have to have pippen. Pippen needed to show he could win w/out jordan, which he didnt prove, but he had many opportunities... Sure jordan didnt do it w/out pippen, but we all know he could have had he been given another solid SF like Grant Hill or somebody like that. Pippen won 6 rings, great... Horry and Kerr have 5, they must be in the next group of greats after Pippen and Jordan who have 6 right? No, they won it because they played w/ greatness... sure they were a vital part to the teams they won it with, but they were lucky to be a part of that. Bruce bowen is one of the greatest defensive players today, does that put him on the list as one of the greatest players in todays game?
Kobe should lose some respect because he said all that there going to win the finals and all that stuff then he goes out there and gives 50 percent
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">Jordan could have won titles w/ another really good SF, he didnt have to have pippen. Pippen needed to show he could win w/out jordan, which he didnt prove, but he had many opportunities... Sure jordan didnt do it w/out pippen, but we all know he could have had he been given another solid SF like Grant Hill or somebody like that. Pippen won 6 rings, great... Horry and Kerr have 5, they must be in the next group of greats after Pippen and Jordan who have 6 right? No, they won it because they played w/ greatness... sure they were a vital part to the teams they won it with, but they were lucky to be a part of that. Bruce bowen is one of the greatest defensive players today, does that put him on the list as one of the greatest players in todays game?</div> After Pippen there was who? Bird? Wilkens? That's about it though and the Bulls wouldn't of won with another scorer like Wilkens, they didn't need an extra scorer. He didn't win without Jordan? Did Jordan win without Pippen? No, he was never over .500 and he only won one playoff game. Oh wait, he had a bad team, even though you don't hear great players use their teammates as an excuse for their failures, but excuses could be made for him, because he was Jordan. Pippen didn't win a championship but he won, the Bulls didn't collapse without Jordan, they were still an elite team, just not championship material. Why could he have won with Hill? Pippen was one of the greatest defensive small forwards of all time, and on offense there was nothing Hill could do better than Pippen, Hill wasn't going to guard the opposing teams best offensive player like Pippen would. Jordan was lucky to have Pippen, he wasn't going to win titles without him and there was no one in the league that could of done what Pippen was doing for them on both ends of the floor, especially during their second championship run. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting TwinTowers:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe should lose some respect because he said all that there going to win the finals and all that stuff then he goes out there and gives 50 percent</div> Are you kidding me? What exactly did Shaq give on defense? All the guy had to do was put some effort into pick and roll defense and rebound, since he had zero responsibility else where.
You are right but........... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Streetball2k3:</div><div class="quote_post">Here is another stat that shows Kobe does not deserve more respect because the Lakers and Kobe need Shaq on the floor. Shaq has been on the bench for 20 minutes in this series, and in those minutes the Pistons outscored the Lakers 40-19. IMO that just shows the Kobe cannot win without Shaq because there is no shotblocker on the floor to get scared off when people blow by their defender.</div> Props to you on that. But its also the other way around Shaq can't win without Kobe. Don't get me wrong I love Shaq but he doesn't average enough points a game. I think as long as Shaq and Kobe stick together the Lakers will have another chance at the championship next year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">After Pippen there was who? Bird? Wilkens? That's about it though and the Bulls wouldn't of won with another scorer like Wilkens, they didn't need an extra scorer. He didn't win without Jordan? Did Jordan win without Pippen? No, he was never over .500 and he only won one playoff game. Oh wait, he had a bad team, even though you don't hear great players use their teammates as an excuse for their failures, but excuses could be made for him, because he was Jordan. Pippen didn't win a championship but he won, the Bulls didn't collapse without Jordan, they were still an elite team, just not championship material. Why could he have won with Hill? Pippen was one of the greatest defensive small forwards of all time, and on offense there was nothing Hill could do better than Pippen, Hill wasn't going to guard the opposing teams best offensive player like Pippen would. Jordan was lucky to have Pippen, he wasn't going to win titles without him and there was no one in the league that could of done what Pippen was doing for them on both ends of the floor, especially during their second championship run.</div> you keep going back to the same points... like i said, jordan didnt have pieces around him when he first came in the league, pippen already had a team that won 3 titles, minus jordan. Pippen had a better team w/out jordan, than jordan did w/out pippen. Do i have to reiterate this one more time for you before you finally start to understand? Jordan won the biggest game of his career w/out pippen, and it wasn't even a Jordan in his prime. Sure it was only one game, but it was a HUGE game, and he did it against two hall of famers, with no hall of famers on his team. You must have forgotten how good Grant Hill was... look at what happened to the piston's when he left. I'm not saying he is a better defender than pippen, but he was definitely one of the best players in the league in his day. Hill didn't need to guard the best player on the other team, jordan coulda done that, and he woulda been more than happy to do so. Their second championship run had as much to do w/ rodman as it did pippen. Pippen doesn't deserve any more respect than he already gets, and neither does kobe... end of discussion
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">you keep going back to the same points... like i said, jordan didnt have pieces around him when he first came in the league, pippen already had a team that won 3 titles, minus jordan. Pippen had a better team w/out jordan, than jordan did w/out pippen. Do i have to reiterate this one more time for you before you finally start to understand? Jordan won the biggest game of his career w/out pippen, and it wasn't even a Jordan in his prime. Sure it was only one game, but it was a HUGE game, and he did it against two hall of famers, with no hall of famers on his team. You must have forgotten how good Grant Hill was... look at what happened to the piston's when he left. I'm not saying he is a better defender than pippen, but he was definitely one of the best players in the league in his day. Hill didn't need to guard the best player on the other team, jordan coulda done that, and he woulda been more than happy to do so. Their second championship run had as much to do w/ rodman as it did pippen. Pippen doesn't deserve any more respect than he already gets, and neither does kobe... end of discussion</div> Again, you're making excuses for him, great players don't make excuses, that's why at that time Jordan wasn't a truly great player, he was a great talent, but he wasn't ever going to be the man on a winning team without some help from a very good player, Pippen. Wasn't Jordan the one carrying those championship teams? Weren't they supposed to suffer without him? They were still talented and Pippen was more than capable of carrying that team on his own, hence the near MVP, of course had it been the other way around Jordan would of got the MVP, because he's Jordan. One game? Wait, not one game a few minutes without Pippen, minutes! Preformances like that made him the greatest, but he wasn't getting there without Pippen, and Dennis Rodman is a HOF'er... 5 time champ, top 3 rebounder ever and top 5 defensive player ever, to me that's Hall of Fame worthy. If you want to go by a few minutes, Bryant had his without O'neil against the Pacers, remember that? Grant Hill was good, but NEVER as good as Pippen because on defense he wasn't even close and on offense he couldn't do ANYTHING better than Pippen. Jordan could have done that, however he wasn't going to be happy about it, because he wouldn't have nearly as much energy left in the 4th quarter as he would with Pippen guarding the best offensive player. Besides one on one defense was never his specialty, help defense was, everyone remembers the steal before the shot, help defense. The second run had as much to do with Rodman as it did with Pippen? That's just silly, Rodman was HUGE but Pippen was absolutely necessary, Pippen was at his peak at that time, before injuries and age brought him down. If this series doesn't prove Bryant's worth to people I don't know what will, he sucked, the Lakers sucked, that's the bottome line, Buss wants him on the Lakers over everyone else for a reason. Shaq was single covered and allowed to get everything he wanted on offense, they had defenders running at Bryant all game long. The Pistons defensive gameplan was to not let Bryant go off and allow Shaq to have whatever he wants because Brown knows that Shaq can't beat you, especially not in the 4th quarter, Bryant can. Most people still want to be fooled and think that Shaq is this world beater, but he's not, only was for 1 season, and he will fade fast unless he starts working during the offseason and starts taking care of his body.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post">why dont u just stop whining. i was whatching espn today and they were showing some jordan highlights. theres really no comparison. jordan won 6 titles without a dominant big man. he was the man on that team and he was a guard. thats so incredible. kobe is a star but hes not the main reason the lakers win. face it</div> What are you talkin about? 70% of today's stars are guards or small forwards that occasionally get shifted at a guard position.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">Again, you're making excuses for him, great players don't make excuses, that's why at that time Jordan wasn't a truly great player, he was a great talent, but he wasn't ever going to be the man on a winning team without some help from a very good player, Pippen. Wasn't Jordan the one carrying those championship teams? Weren't they supposed to suffer without him? They were still talented and Pippen was more than capable of carrying that team on his own, hence the near MVP, of course had it been the other way around Jordan would of got the MVP, because he's Jordan. One game? Wait, not one game a few minutes without Pippen, minutes! Preformances like that made him the greatest, but he wasn't getting there without Pippen, and Dennis Rodman is a HOF'er... 5 time champ, top 3 rebounder ever and top 5 defensive player ever, to me that's Hall of Fame worthy. If you want to go by a few minutes, Bryant had his without O'neil against the Pacers, remember that? Grant Hill was good, but NEVER as good as Pippen because on defense he wasn't even close and on offense he couldn't do ANYTHING better than Pippen. Jordan could have done that, however he wasn't going to be happy about it, because he wouldn't have nearly as much energy left in the 4th quarter as he would with Pippen guarding the best offensive player. Besides one on one defense was never his specialty, help defense was, everyone remembers the steal before the shot, help defense. The second run had as much to do with Rodman as it did with Pippen? That's just silly, Rodman was HUGE but Pippen was absolutely necessary, Pippen was at his peak at that time, before injuries and age brought him down. If this series doesn't prove Bryant's worth to people I don't know what will, he sucked, the Lakers sucked, that's the bottome line, Buss wants him on the Lakers over everyone else for a reason. Shaq was single covered and allowed to get everything he wanted on offense, they had defenders running at Bryant all game long. The Pistons defensive gameplan was to not let Bryant go off and allow Shaq to have whatever he wants because Brown knows that Shaq can't beat you, especially not in the 4th quarter, Bryant can. Most people still want to be fooled and think that Shaq is this world beater, but he's not, only was for 1 season, and he will fade fast unless he starts working during the offseason and starts taking care of his body.</div> I never said he couldnt win w/out a Pippen, but you can't say he HAD to have Pippen either. You can't sit here and say w/out Pippen, you are 100% sure Jordan wouldn't have won. I can say and be 100% sure when i say, without Shaq, Kobe would have nothing. No one said Bulls would drop off the face of the earth when jordan retired, if Pippen was soooooooo capable, then he woulda taken them to at least the conference finals, and not take himself out of games (a la kobe bryant on several instances this season). Big deal, he got near mvp, theres a reason why he didn't win it, because he didnt deserve it because he didn't prove anything. Peja was a MVP candidate this year, and had the kings not fallen off, he would have been the runner-up in mvp. But theres a reason why he didn't and would not have won, because he can't carry a team like Olajuwon and Garnett. And don't use that "Oh, because it's Jordan" stuff, every accolade jordan ever recieved, he deserved, he actually deserves more than he got. I did say ONE GAME in my previous post, and thats what i mean, ONE GAME... not a few minutes... ONE GAME. Pippen left EARLY in the first quarter, and returned in the fourth quarter (can't remember exactly when he came back in the fourth)... But even when he did come back, the Jazz didn't even guard him, and he didn't do much on the other end of the floor either... And i don't think anyone wants to compare Kobe's few minutes vs indy against one of the greatest NBA Finals performances ever. If you think Jordan can only play good help defense, then you're sadly mistaken. You're gonna take ONE play that highlighted his career and say that's what makes him? It's hard to make first defensive team every year if you are only a good help defender, especially at the guard position. You don't win defensive player of the year by being a good help defender at the guard position... At the center or PF position, maybe, because it leads to blocks... But as a guard, NO! And without Rodman on that team, Chicago may not have even won vs Utah with malone in his prime. Who did Pippen guard? Hornacek? Russell? Yea, theres a HUGE defensive assignment. If you wanna say this series shows kobe's value, then it should also say something about him as a player and how he wasn't able to carry the team and follow up on his words... If you asked Lakers management what one player they could have for next season, and next season only, they would all probably say shaq... The reason they want to keep Kobe is for the long haul. And your eyes are letting you see only what you wanna see, if you wanna call what they did to Kobe "double teaming" then so be it, but if thats what ur gonna call a double, then they're doing the same to shaq. No one is "running at" kobe when he gets the ball... They're only showing when he drives with the ball, but even then, they rarely ever fully came over to a forceful double team. And that was the same thing they did with shaq.
