<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Jul 17 2007, 06:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe could easily win with pippen on his team. Pippen is a top 15 player of all time. He can score, rebounde, creat and facilitate all while being an elite defender. Kobe can do that but it takes a toll on him. If all he had to do was score like MJ did later in his career his effeciency would go higher and the lakers with the same roster as the bulls had 3-8 would win 3-4 rings.</div>It's idiotic statements like this that makes people hate you Kobe homers.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Let Em Hear This @ Jul 17 2007, 08:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It's idiotic statements like this that makes people hate you Kobe homers.</div>If you're gonna make statements this strong, at least give a reason why instead of just saying, "Oh, everyone is a stupid Kobe homer. Think he is a better jumpshooter than MJ?!? HOMER!!!"
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brando @ Jul 17 2007, 07:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>explain why....</div>I've already stated why, he wouldn't have won sh*t because he's a pussy he pouted and refused to come off the bench and be a decoy in a game against the Knicks. He put his own interests above the best the team and that is a perfect example of what is wrong with Pippen.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaRdYC26 @ Jul 17 2007, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I've already stated why, he wouldn't have won sh*t because he's a pussy he pouted and refused to come off the bench and be a decoy in a game against the Knicks. He put his own interests above the best the team and that is a perfect example of what is wrong with Pippen.</div>And MJ constantly talked down to teammates, punched 2 of them in practice, complained to manangement to trade him and make certain trades, killed a few players' confidence, complained about his shot attempts after Phil arrived, cursed out Phil in frotn of others, etc...What Pippen did was certainly wrong (and there are many other wrong things he did, like try and hold out until he was guaranteed a new contract). but it is simply the way the game is. But on the court, Pippen did his thing, arguably being a top 5 SF all time. The theory that Jordan made him as a player was shot down, so please bring us actual proof to back up your claims.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Let Em Hear This @ Jul 18 2007, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It's idiotic statements like this that makes people hate you Kobe homers.</div>Disprove it.Mj Before pippen got betterSub-par winning recordsGreat statsLot of indivudal statementsKobe has averaged 32/6/5 as the undisputed leader of the lakers. You add that to a top 15 player and solid 3-8 players like mj had and they easiy wins rings.
Mardy...Valo and I both owned you in this thread on the exact same topic.http://www.bballworld.us/forum/index.php?s...26225&st=75
Here was Valo's post DIRECTED TO MARDY:<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Mar 24 2007, 07:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dude, you seriously need to not talk when you don't know what you are talking about. Nowhere in here have you said anyting that even comes close to a rational thought. For that first one, that Jordan did it by himself, that is COMPLETELY off. He had a very good team around him, he might have handled a majority of the scoring by himself, but his team around him was great. How about having two of the grittiest and toughest rebounders and man to man defenders around for both of his championship runs in Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman. How about having three point shooters around him, like Steve Kerr, John Paxson, Toni Kukoc, BJ Armstrong to have cleared the lane for Michael Jordan's driving in to be effective. How about having one of the 50 greatest players of all time next to him like Scottie Pippen who facilitated the offense, meanwhile played defense just as well as Michael Jordan at the other end. Not to mention having a superb team defense around him. Case and point is the fact that this team won 55 games the year he went and played baseball, with Scottie Pippen being the unquestioned leader. They only won 57 games the year before. Add to that, they played tough in the playoffs, and took your Knicks team a seven game series. That Knicks team made it to the finals that year. So they was a championship contender without Michael Jordan, so how can you even say he did it by himself? He had a boat load of help, not to mention a hall of fame coach that put a system into place that allowed him to look great. That is ALOT of help, so don't say that he had no help around him. As for the part where Scottie Pippen played pathetic when Jordan retired to go play baseball, nothing could be farther from the truth. With stats of 22 points per game, 8.7 rebounds per game, 5.6 assists per game, 2.9 steals per game, and shot a measily 49 percent from the field. All this while leading his championship contender team to a 55 win season, and into the playoffs. Leading his team in the playoffs and having them challenge that very good Knicks team to a seven game series. By the way, the guy this was while filling Michael Jordan's spot with a Pete Myers, who was in the CBA the year before. Had they had an even decent shooting guard in that spot, and I feel certain we would have seen them go past that Knicks team into the finals. So to say he was pathetic is just dumb.Then later on you say that Lamar Odom/Luke Walton is just as effective as Scottie Pippen, which was just ludicrous speaking. These two can't stay healthy, and can't play the defense that Scottie Pippen could.</div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Jul 18 2007, 02:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Disprove it.Mj Before pippen got betterSub-par winning recordsGreat statsLot of indivudal statementsKobe has averaged 32/6/5 as the undisputed leader of the lakers. You add that to a top 15 player and solid 3-8 players like mj had and they easiy wins rings.</div>He had Shaq, Malone, and Payton against the Pistons. Imagine Jordan + Shaq. Can you say 13-PEAT? Jordan had a 50-win season during Pippen's rookie year where Pip had 0 impact. They also didn't get bounced out of the 1st round. You really can't compare Kobe and Jordan's careers because players get better with experience so Kobe should have a huge advantage now with 10 years of experience without great teammates over Jordan's pre-Pippen years where MJ had very little experience. Of course Jordan haters/Kobe homers will attribute Jordan's success to Pippen and the rest of the cast and attribute Kobe's lack of success to his mediocre teammates.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Let Em Hear This @ Jul 18 2007, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He had Shaq, Malone, and Payton against the Pistons. Imagine Jordan + Shaq. Can you say 13-PEAT? Jordan had a 50-win season during Pippen's rookie year where Pip had 0 impact. They also didn't get bounced out of the 1st round. You really can't compare Kobe and Jordan's careers because players get better with experience so Kobe should have a huge advantage now with 10 years of experience without great teammates over Jordan's pre-Pippen years where MJ had very little experience. Of course Jordan haters/Kobe homers will attribute Jordan's success to Pippen and the rest of the cast and attribute Kobe's lack of success to his mediocre teammates.</div>Malone was hurt the series for the Pistons and Payton didn't play well the whole year, getting torched by Billups in the Finals. Kobe certainly didn't have a good series, but the team as a whole was a mess.Pippen didn't make a ton of impact in his rookie year, but Jordan did have one of the league's top rebounders in Charles Oakley, and Sam Vincent was dishing out nearly 9APG. And Pippen certainly was impactful, and averaged a nice 10/5/3 along with 2SPG. in the first round.For the first few years, Jordan didn't have success due to mediocre teammates around him, just like Kobe now. Kobe didn't win rings without Shaq, and hasn't proven he can without Shaq...but Jordan also never did crap without Pippen. You need more than 1 superstar and mediocrity to get anything done in this league.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 18 2007, 11:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Malone was hurt the series for the Pistons and Payton didn't play well the whole year, getting torched by Billups in the Finals. Kobe certainly didn't have a good series, but the team as a whole was a mess.Pippen didn't make a ton of impact in his rookie year, but Jordan did have one of the league's top rebounders in Charles Oakley, and Sam Vincent was dishing out nearly 9APG. And Pippen certainly was impactful, and averaged a nice 10/5/3 along with 2SPG. in the first round.For the first few years, Jordan didn't have success due to mediocre teammates around him, just like Kobe now. Kobe didn't win rings without Shaq, and hasn't proven he can without Shaq...but Jordan also never did crap without Pippen. You need more than 1 superstar and mediocrity to get anything done in this league.</div>Uhh... the Spurs just proved you wrong. You can't really call Parker a superstar yet, he's on the verge. Detroit... Billups is the only thing they have that's close to a superstar.Honestly, to win in this league, you need a PG that penatrate and control the game. (Parker/Billups). A small forward that plays a little above average to put on an opposing teams best wingman, and can be a solid third option on offense (Manu/Bowen/Prince). A Big guy thats either going to be a 1st or 2nd option on offense that can play both inside and out (Duncan/Sheed). And a center that will does the dirt work (Oberto/Elson/Nazr/Ben Wallace). And to top that all off, fundamental team defense. You have that, you win a championship.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Lefty @ Jul 18 2007, 09:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Uhh... the Spurs just proved you wrong. You can't really call Parker a superstar yet, he's on the verge.</div>Parker and Ginobli are both all stars and they have a great supporting cast. I wouldn't consider all of that as mediocrity (BTW, Duncan is the superstar on that team).<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Detroit... Billups is the only thing they have that's close to a superstar.</div>Hamilton is an all star 20PPG scorer, Rasheed Wallace is one of the best PF's in the East and proven in every which way, Prince is always a candidate for DPOY...again, far from mediocrity. Oh, and when they won a ring, they had the best rebounder and defender of the 2000's in Ben Wallace.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Honestly, to win in this league, you need a PG that penatrate and control the game. (Parker/Billups). A small forward that plays a little above average to put on an opposing teams best wingman, and can be a solid third option on offense (Manu/Bowen/Prince). A Big guy thats either going to be a 1st or 2nd option on offense that can play both inside and out (Duncan/Sheed). And a center that will does the dirt work (Oberto/Elson/Nazr/Ben Wallace). And to top that all off, fundamental team defense. You have that, you win a championship.</div>All championship teams are different. Lakers never had a PG who penetrated the lane or whatever, and never really had a 3rd scoring option. Heat never really played great, fundemental defense.There is no formual to winning a championship, you just have to do the best you possibly can to build around the personel you have.
Nitro, it's much harder to build around a shooting guard. MJ was the exception, kobe can also join him.To build around bryant and win you would needa- A point guard who can handle the ball majority of the time, plays defense and can create for othersb- A defensive swingman who can take the pressure of bryant defensivelyc- A big who can board and swat, doesn't need to be an allstar just needs to be solidWe have C in Andrew bynum, he can deliver that next season.B is very doable, kings love farmar and with artest's latest escapades it just might happenA is the big issues, still don't have a point guard who can deliver all of that. The cheapest possible pg we can get is Duhon if Chicago bites on a s&t with mihm. Bulls worked Mihm out, might happen.The team would ook like thisC- Bynum/Skinner (vets mim)PF- Odom/Vlad/TuriafSF- Artest/WaltonSG- Bryant/evans/critPG- Duhon/Fisher/vujacicIt's a contender if healthy. Kobe's been working his but off this season on defense. He realises his defense slipped off. Kobe will play elite defense next season, add that to another elite defender and you have MJ-PIP lite on D. Duhon is actually one of the best ranking defensive pgs in the league. At the 1 his opponent's PER is only 12 on .434% efg. He has done that for 2 seasons in a row, can't ignore it. He isn't a lockdown defender but he can handle the ball and can play defense. That's all kobe needs. Then you lamar who can rebound, create for others and himself. As a third option he can thrive. Comparable to the 1991 bulls. 2 elite perimeter defenders, one franchise and good defense. Other teams might have more depth but if PJ actually coaches defense then imo a Kobe+artest+odom duo can beat any team in the nba in a series.
