<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drake24 @ Jun 4 2007, 04:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Being a more valuable individual for your team does not make you a better basketball player. The only way you can even compare these two is if you only look at offense because there is no way in hell you are going to compare Nash's defense to Kobe's. Now on the offensive end, Kobe has more of an offensive arsenal to dispose of than Nash does. A better low post game, better finishing ability, better ability to score over double and even tripple teams, he is better at making off balance shots, and so on. Nash is better on offense because of his teammates. Just about all of them (even the big men) can hit from just about anywhere on a spot up jumper. Because of this, if you double Nash (who can find open players) you are basically screwed. Kobe doesn't have the supporting cast Nash does, how so? Nash has an All-NBA first team center, a All-NBA first defensive team player, and the sixth man of the year- his back up. If that doesn't speak volumes for your supporting cast, I don't know what does. Add to that the Lakers injuries this year of key players and the fact the Lakers still had the 7th seed in the West, I don't know how you can argue that Kobe isn't a better overall player. Here is a question for you, with the team the Suns had this year, and with Steve Nash being so great, why haven't they won a championship yet?Even if you wanted to argue that Nash is a more valuable player for his team, there is no logical way you can argue he is more of a complete player.</div>Doesn't really have anything to do with Nash because it would be tough to find 5 playoff games were he struggled in these 3 years. The Suns just haven't been good enough or they've been unlucky. I blame the coach not using the bench players for most of this. PFF, Nash has great talent on his team already. He isn't making any of them what they are. He is a great teammate and runs the offense very nicely, but if Kobe had that talent he would do well also. And even with his advantage in assisting his teammates, Kobe is a much better scorer and offense is just half the game. Kobe is much better in the other half. Nash has been great, but Kobe, Duncan, LeBron and Wade are all better players at least.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Doesn't really have anything to do with Nash because it would be tough to find 5 playoff games were he struggled in these 3 years. The Suns just haven't been good enough or they've been unlucky. I blame the coach not using the bench players for most of this.</div>Oh, that wasn't a stab at Nash. He played great. But as highly as PFF is speaking of Nash, I am asking why he hasn't won any rings or at least been to the finals with this cast. As much as PFF is talking about Nash's ability to win and the fact he is the best player in the league and all, I am asking why he hasn't at least been to the finals. That is all. I just wanted to see how he explained that."You forget the most important part: winning and elavating your teamates and yourself. NASH STANDS MILES ABOVE IN THAT CATEGORY. Nash is the most valuable player, Kobe is more talented, but Nash does more as a player"This kind of statement would lead me to believe Nash should have pulled off a finals trip with this year's Suns.
Personally, I don't see a distinction between "best" and "most valuable". If you generate more wins than any other player then you're the best player IMO.Now don't let that make you believe I think that Dirk is the best, because I think MVP voters are wack, but IMO, I just don't see what talent amounts to if you don't help your team win more than other players do, which is why I think Duncan is the best player in the league.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drake24 @ Jun 4 2007, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Oh, that wasn't a stab at Nash. He played great. But as highly as PFF is speaking of Nash, I am asking why he hasn't won any rings or at least been to the finals with this cast. As much as PFF is talking about Nash's ability to win and the fact he is the best player in the league and all, I am asking why he hasn't at least been to the finals. That is all. I just wanted to see how he explained that."You forget the most important part: winning and elavating your teamates and yourself. NASH STANDS MILES ABOVE IN THAT CATEGORY. Nash is the most valuable player, Kobe is more talented, but Nash does more as a player"This kind of statement would lead me to believe Nash should have pulled off a finals trip with this year's Suns.</div>Okay, that's fair. I just don't like the arguments I've gotten into with people taking away from Nash because he hasn't won when he's done everything he could do.PFF is just being silly again.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kobebryant_24OWNEDME @ Jun 4 2007, 07:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Personally, I don't see a distinction between "best" and "most valuable". If you generate more wins than any other player then you're the best player IMO.</div>Just clarifying, so you are saying whoever wins finals MVP is basically the best player in the league? I mean, to win the finals MVP you won the championship, you can't generate more wins than that. On top of that, if you have won the finals MVP you had a great deal to do with your teams success. And if that is the case, then the finals MVP would mean more than the MVP because that means you got farther than just being the MVP (if you weren't the MVP that is). But how would you factor in the teammates? I mean, you can be a great player and have sucky teammates. You can't win games by yourself.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kobebryant_24OWNEDME @ Jun 4 2007, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Personally, I don't see a distinction between "best" and "most valuable". If you generate more wins than any other player then you're the best player IMO.</div>Well I feel Nash is the most valuable because even with the burden put on him, D'Antoni rarely calling any plays, he has been great. He runs the best offense in the league and without him we would probably drop off more than any other team because well, he's really our coach along with being our best player and we have no one else besides Amare and Barbosa who can create for themselves and Barbs isn't much of a passer. Kobe though is just a more talented player because of what he can do defensively. He was gifted with his height and race so is more explosive and can rebound better. And he's just a better scorer. I say Nash is more valuable because of all that he has to do for us, but Kobe is right behind in that too because his supporting cast is weak.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drake24 @ Jun 4 2007, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Just clarifying, so you are saying whoever wins finals MVP is basically the best player in the league? I mean, to win the finals MVP you won the championship, you can't generate more wins than that. On top of that, if you have won the finals MVP you had a great deal to do with your teams success. And if that is the case, then the finals MVP would mean more than the MVP because that means you got farther than just being the MVP (if you weren't the MVP that is). But how would you factor in the teammates? I mean, you can be a great player and have sucky teammates. You can't win games by yourself.</div>Yeah...Chauncey Billups was never the best in the league...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drake24 @ Jun 4 2007, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Just clarifying, so you are saying whoever wins finals MVP is basically the best player in the league? I mean, to win the finals MVP you won the championship, you can't generate more wins than that. On top of that, if you have won the finals MVP you had a great deal to do with your teams success. And if that is the case, then the finals MVP would mean more than the MVP because that means you got farther than just being the MVP (if you weren't the MVP that is). But how would you factor in the teammates? I mean, you can be a great player and have sucky teammates. You can't win games by yourself.</div>I'm not saying that at all. By "generate wins" I'm saying that if you add Tim Duncan to your average team they improve by more games than they would by having any other player added and that, IMO, is what value is.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Jun 4 2007, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe though is just a more talented player because of what he can do defensively. He was gifted with his height and race so is more explosive and can rebound better.</div> :no1:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kobebryant_24OWNEDME @ Jun 4 2007, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not saying that at all. By "generate wins" I'm saying that if you add Tim Duncan to your average team they improve by more games than they would by having any other player added and that, IMO, is what value is.</div>Oh, okay. Yes, I agree, that is what value is. But one player may be a better "value" on one team than another and it could be the opposite on a different team. That is why, in my opinion, there is a difference from most valuable player and the best player. When I think of best player, I think of "in a certain area" or "overall" and when I think of valuable player, I think of what you said. That is just my opinion.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drake24 @ Jun 4 2007, 07:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Oh, okay. Yes, I agree, that is what value is. But one player may be a better "value" on one team than another and it could be the opposite on a different team. That is why, in my opinion, there is a difference from most valuable player and the best player. When I think of best player, I think of "in a certain area" or "overall" and when I think of valuable player, I think of what you said. That is just my opinion.</div>Bingo.If you think Duncan would be more valuable to the Suns, and likewise for Nash and the Spurs, you have to be crazy. It is all about the focus of the team (offense/defense), the personel surrounding your star, and how the coaches are able to utilize that talent.You have to bring value of the player into the mix when judging a player, but a much bigger area of critique for me is their talent/mentality/smarts/etc...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kobebryant_24OWNEDME @ Jun 4 2007, 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>:no1:</div>You caught that...you ARE a good reader. I'm just saying, the calf muscles and stuff...
God, this thread has evolved into some Pacer's Fan Forever logic mixed with some Paul Hornung-esque insight.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mobruler @ Jun 4 2007, 02:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hmm, the best player ever not named Jordan vs. the best high-schooler ever not named Kobe?Kobe wins this one flat out. Lebron has 3 good games in the playoffs in a row and everyone is ready to hand him the torch. Kobe has 3 rings in a row. Lebron's J falls lethally when he's in the zone. Kobe's J falls lethally always. Kobe changes games on the defensive side of the ball and has won many games on defensive possessions. Lebron hasn't. Lebron's stock is up now, but c'mon. If you're going to try and compare these players, put everything they've done into perspective and be fair. This isn't even a solid debate. Kobe is the best player in the world right now.</div> Lebron james has next to nothing as a supporting cast, Game 5 speaks for itself. Hes also 22, and nearing into Kobe's game style, and from the beginning Ive always said Lebron was clearly the best of the 03 draft, including wade carmelo and bosh. Its a no brainer to consider Lebron, Duncan, and Kobe as the best in the NBA.
