<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">Because McGrady and Iverson couldn't do it last year, and were in the East. Pierce snagged an 8th seed...in the East. Kobe and the Lakers are in the West, and could very well end up winning the division...or getting into the playoffs for sure.</div> I'm not talking about just last year, I'm talking about them carrying their teams their whole career. They have carried their teams on their back and got them deep in the playoffs with weak rosters. Kobe at least has a decent supporting cast, Pierce, Iverson, Mcgrady would of loved to have a guy like Lamar Odom as their 2nd option and having a swingmen like Caron Butler who can also score. It's not like Kobe has no talent around him, he needs to make his team-mates better but I don't think he truely does that or ever will.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">then Eddie Jones (just look at his % in L.A) </div> This is Off-topic but EJ was one of my favs .... His game is totally different now than what it was in his L.A. days. When he was in L.A., his game was about taking it to the basket hard and finishing. Gradually, his game changed to become a pure perimeter player, which has led to a lower FG%. EJ's high FG % in his early years had nothing to do with Shaq. Two (of three) of his best FG% years were before Shaq even showed up in L.A.
Well his performance last night was worthless then...23 points, 11 assists, 6 rebounds, 5 steals, 2 blocks, 9-16 shooting (56% or so), perfect from the line, a Laker win...who cares. He doesn't wanna make his teammates better...he just wants to score the entire game...with 23 points.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">I dislike Kobe's fans than Kobe himself, the fact they Overhype everything he does Fail to realise Shaq was the main reason for the 3 championships They think every dunk he does is dunk of year He is actually a great defender some compare him to MJ and think he is equal to MJ at his current age They think he is some kind of basketball god Some even say he is the best player in the NBA </div> You're right, there are a lot of Kobe fans that fit that criteria. But there are a few us that say he's a great player and leave it at that. I know Shaq was the best player in the league during the 3 championships and right now I think Garnett is the best player in the league. I think Kobe will eventually be the best player in the league and lead the Lakers to a championship. I think thats a realistic prediction.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">Thats the thing Jurassic, the real difference between Kobe and Mcgrady is the fact Kobe has had Shaq by his side for 8 seasons.</div> :thumbsup: Exactly. Guys, I could care less if Kobe's FT% has gone up, that's stupid. If you are going to brag about stats that have BARELY improved (blocks have improved by less that 1, same with boards, and assists have only improved by 0.2/game ) you should also mention that he is turning the ball over more and getting more fouls/game. For the past couple years PP has been criticised for shoot 28-30% from three. Granted his team lives by the three, but still nobody is getting on Kobe for the same % from the arc. Don't brag about the fact that he is doing all of this while injured, because guys like Iverson get banged up way more than Kobe. Don't brag about him doing all of this without Shaq, because assists are the only improved category that Shaq would have made a difference in.
Well then I guess I'm going to pick on Shaq, and say that nearly all of his stats are decreasing...and who cares about his hamstring...guys play injured all the time. under 20 PPG (career low) 4.3 fouls a game (career high) 0.22 steals a game (career low) 11.3 boards a game (career average of 12) 2.8 assists a game (barely lower than last year) 54% shooting (career low) 3.33 turnovers a game (highest since rookie season) 4.3 fouls per game (career high) In other words, I can assume that Shaq is doing worse without Kobe. Fair enough? I'm done.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Guys, I could care less if Kobe's FT% has gone up, that's stupid. If you are going to brag about stats that have BARELY improved (blocks have improved by less that 1, same with boards, and assists have only improved by 0.2/game ) you should also mention that he is turning the ball over more and getting more fouls/game.</div> All of that's true, but the same thing goes for Shaq. Everyone picked Shaq to be the MVP and the Heat to have a 60 win season. But I don't hear anyone bringing that up.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post"> In other words, I can assume that Shaq is doing worse without Kobe. Fair enough? I'm done.</div> Shaq playing worse has nothing to do with Kobe, what Shaq is doing so far has to do with his injury but more due to the fact he is getting older and is on the way down. What is he now? 32? Shaq had no problems dominating in Orlando when clearly Kobe was not there. Players don't make Shaq look great, he is plain and simple great because of his size and strength. When you get older you are obviously not going to be great as you once where. Shaq needs to get more and better shots. Kobe is 26, thats a big different compared to Shaq' age.
Well Shaq is playing a few less minutes than last year, and averaging a couple less points than last year. Shaq is playing with a guard who is averaging more points than Kobe did last year. Those make up for the drop in ppg. Shaq doesn't need to get assists, it's not his job and is irrelevant. Shaq's team is virtually guaranteed homecourt in the east. I truly believe that come playoff time he will pick up his game. Besides, Shaq never claimed to bring it every night. Kobe has always been considered a player who brings it every night. Kobe is having more individual success stat-wise, but Shaq has team success. I wouldn't say that Shaq is better off (although he might be), but I wouldn't say that he is doing worse without Kobe. Besides, Shaq has already been successful in the past without Kobe. Nobody will ever associates Shaq's successful career with the fact that he had Kobe, because Shaq was good stat-wise before being in LA. Until Kobe succeeds without Shaq (by succeed I mean winning in the playoffs), his success will be tied in with Diesel.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq playing worse has nothing to do with Kobe, what Shaq is doing so far has to do with his injury but more due to the fact he is getting older and is on the way down. What is he now? 32? Shaq had no problems dominating in Orlando when clearly Kobe was not there. Players don't make Shaq look great, he is plain and simple great because of his size and strength. When you get older you are obviously not going to be great as you once where. Shaq needs to get more and better shots.</div> Haha, that was the answer I expected. Now, AllNet, go up to Shaq and tell him that, and see what he says. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq, my crosseyed friend, you're getting old, you're hurt and on the way down. You dominated by yourself in Orlando (we forget Penny's 30+ point games in the playoffs), but now you just don't have it anymore.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Shaq:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm in the best shape since my rookie season. I've stepped down from lifting weights and now I'm all about cardio. Muscle weighs more than fat. Stats? What's stats, when you have skill? The ball is my world...it's in my hands. I jumped off the Titanic, and now I'm in the same boat as The Stilt, Russell, The Dream. I've earned respect from the basketball gods. I've turned Florida hurricanes into calm waters. I'm Shaq-Diesel, running on a full tank. I promise my Shaqo-holics...I will win you a championship! [eats a Crunch bar] My sons in the past were jokes, clowns. D-Wade is amazing, better than MJ, Drex, Bird and Magic. The Heat will reign supreme over all!</div>
Thats a nice little role play you just ran Fact is Shaq may not be as great as he once was but he can still dominate teams. Stats also don't do his justice. You only have to see how much attention he draws. Guys like Eddie Jones, Damon Jones and R. Butler have had so many wide open shots all because of Shaq and unluckily for them they have not connected like shooters are suppose to. I expect come december time, Shaq will be putting up more 28 and 11 type games. BTW Derek Fisher is another guy Shaq made look good, what is he shooting this year 30% from two and 15% from three?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">Well Shaq is playing a few less minutes than last year, and averaging a couple less points than last year. Shaq is playing with a guard who is averaging more points than Kobe did last year. Those make up for the drop in ppg. Shaq doesn't need to get assists, it's not his job and is irrelevant. Shaq's team is virtually guaranteed homecourt in the east. I truly believe that come playoff time he will pick up his game. Besides, Shaq never claimed to bring it every night. Kobe has always been considered a player who brings it every night. Kobe is having more individual success stat-wise, but Shaq has team success. I wouldn't say that Shaq is better off (although he might be), but I wouldn't say that he is doing worse without Kobe. Besides, Shaq has already been successful in the past without Kobe. Nobody will ever associates Shaq's successful career with the fact that he had Kobe, because Shaq was good stat-wise before being in LA. Until Kobe succeeds without Shaq (by succeed I mean winning in the playoffs), his success will be tied in with Diesel.</div> Shaq is having more success team wise because he's playing in the East. Both the Lakers and the Heat have losses against top tier team. Both of them have beat the teams they are suppose to beat, but the Heat has played more of those teams so far. Shaq was statistically successful without Kobe, but he didn't win a championship. Shaq was the best in the league those years, but he couldn't have done it without Kobe. If both Shaq and Kobe never win a championship without each other, then it would be said that they needed each other and their success would be tied to each other. Kobe has a good 10 - 12 year left in this league, I think he can get one maybe two.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post"> BTW Derek Fisher is another guy Shaq made look good, what is he shooting this year 30% from two and 15% from three?</div> Yea, poor fish. He's one of my fav athletes, but out of all the Lakers, he benefited the most from Shaq. After his foot injuries, he became a one-dimensional spot up shooter. Without Shaq to set him up, his numbers will continue to plummet
The point is this: Shaq has never had success without Kobe. He had Penny, who was shooting over 50% in a few seasons with Shaq and had nearly 7 assists a game in those seasons...so Shaq didn't do it by himself then. Kobe has yet to have the chance to win without Shaq. Nine games, and everyone is still saying he's doing nothing, he's garbage, he's not a leader, his stats are down, blah blah blah. Everyone gave Allen Iverson 5 or 6 years by himself before the Sixers got into the Finals and Iverson had an MVP. How many years did McGrady have? He has yet to do anything, but for some reason, guys say he's better than Kobe and better than Pierce and Iverson. Everyone is quick to jump onto the bandwagon flying through Los Angeles, with people throwing eggs at an "unsuccessful" Kobe Bryant...when actually, his solo career hasn't even kicked off yet, and he has yet to even reach his prime. Those are the facts. Nothing I said above was opinion...so maybe in 6 years, in Kobe's best years, whenever...someone can come back here and talk trash on Kobe...and if Kobe hasn't done anything (MVP's, scoring titles, Western Conf. championship, NBA title, etc), then I'll sit back and listen.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">The point is this: Shaq has never had success without Kobe. He had Penny, who was shooting over 50% in a few seasons with Shaq and had nearly 7 assists a game in those seasons...so Shaq didn't do it by himself then.</div> I call taking a team to the finals being a success, Penny was 2nd option and It was clear Shaq was the man on that team and Penny's game was boosted due to Shaq's presents. The tough part from Shaq was having to face Hakeem one of the best ever to play the game at the center position, at that time Shaq was very young and him even competing with the dream was a credit to him. Shaq just so happened to be on a team facing two legends of the game back to back, Hakeem's Rockets and MJ's Bulls a year later. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe has yet to have the chance to win without Shaq. Nine games, and everyone is still saying he's doing nothing, he's garbage, he's not a leader, his stats are down, blah blah blah. Everyone gave Allen Iverson 5 or 6 years by himself before the Sixers got into the Finals and Iverson had an MVP. How many years did McGrady have? He has yet to do anything, but for some reason, guys say he's better than Kobe and better than Pierce and Iverson.</div> How much longer can he afford to wait? the guy is 26 and L.A won't be under the cap for a few years which already means they won't get close to a title til at least in that time. L.A's only real hope in the near future is with Yao Ming but I'm betting on him re-signing in Houston.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post"> How much longer can he afford to wait? the guy is 26 and L.A won't be under the cap for a few years which already means they won't get close to a title til at least in that time. L.A's only real hope in the near future is with Yao Ming but I'm betting on him re-signing in Houston.</div> 26 is pretty young man, it's not like he's karl malone. Him, KG, T-Mac, AI, PP etc... still have resonable hopes of winning titles before their careers end. This is addressing this thread in its entirety.....I know a lot of hyped up and overzealous laker fans had some crazy expectations for this franchise, and others are quick to bash the lakers thus far, but you can't win a championship in 9 games. You just can't ...
Since his third year in the league, Shaq's teams have always been contenders -- mainly because of his presence. I don't think its fair to say that he wasn't a success without Kobe. Shaq has proven himself a lot more throughout the course of his career. I consider Shaq to easily be a top 5 player, all time. Kobe doesn't make the top 10. Kobe simply has a long way to go to be considered the greater player (from a career standpoint), in my opinion.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bdubb:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq is having more success team wise because he's playing in the East.</div> Last time I checked, the east has caught up to the west. Who are the champs again? The west just lost Shaq, so that argument isn't as valid anymore. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq was statistically successful without Kobe, but he didn't win a championship. Shaq was the best in the league those years, but he couldn't have done it without Kobe.</div> Well Shaq did get it done without Phil though. So I guess Kobe's success will be tied to Shaq and Phil, while Shaq's will only be tied to Kobe. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If both Shaq and Kobe never win a championship without each other, then it would be said that they needed each other and their success would be tied to each other. Kobe has a good 10 - 12 year left in this league, I think he can get one maybe two.</div> Not unless Kobe also makes it to the finals with Divac, lol. Even though Shaq had Penny he still got to the finals with a different guard. Now it's up to Kobe to get to the finals with another big man (Vlade/Grant, lol). That might seem unfair, but you can thank Mitch for that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">26 is pretty young man, it's not like he's karl malone. Him, KG, T-Mac, AI, PP etc... still have resonable hopes of winning titles before their careers end. This is addressing this thread in its entirety.....I know a lot of hyped up and overzealous laker fans had some crazy expectations for this franchise, but you can't win a championship in 9 games. You just can't ...</div> Of course he is still young but to win a title you need the right guys around you and It's been proven shooting guards don't win titles without a big man in this era. Kobe can be as clutch as he wants but unless you have talented guys who can help you win games you aren't going to go all the way. You need the right balence of attack but most importantly you need a defensive presents inside. I'm not saying Kobe will fail as It's impossible to predict the future but there are alot of question marks about him and how far he can take a team as the go to guy.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">I call taking a team to the finals being a success, Penny was 2nd option and It was clear Shaq was the man on that team and Penny's game was boosted due to Shaq's presents. The tough part from Shaq was having to face Hakeem one of the best ever to play the game at the center position, at that time Shaq was very young and him even competing with the dream was a credit to him. Shaq just so happened to be on a team facing two legends of the game back to back, Hakeem's Rockets and MJ's Bulls a year later.</div> You can't be so sure that his game was boosted. He arrived in Orlando, meaning he wasn't with anyone else. Plus, in Penny's first season without Shaq in Orlando, he still had consistent numbers, but he suffered an injury that kept him out for 22 games. He continued to miss games until eventually, he couldn't even start...therefore, ruining his career...not the departure of Shaq. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">How much longer can he afford to wait? the guy is 26 and L.A won't be under the cap for a few years which already means they won't get close to a title til at least in that time. L.A's only real hope in the near future is with Yao Ming but I'm betting on him re-signing in Houston.</div> Nobody thought the Pistons would beat the Lakers, either. Five guys that were all considered mediocre in their careers...and they all get together and do what was the "impossible" last year. And I wouldn't want Yao Ming. Look at the McGrady-Yao "connection" in Houston right now. We are better than the Rockets. If Odom gets out of his scoring slump, and we pick up a good point guard in the future, we'll be contenders for sure.
