<div class="quote_poster">jealous? Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">i know Wade might have a better supporting cast but that does not take away from how good he is. he leads that team to play at its best potential. i personally think the lakers supporting cast 'can' be great. and i again personally think they just lack that leadership of a real team player, which in my mind takes away from kobe to be the best.</div> Kobe's team only struggles when he has to put that "magic johnson" charade on combined with the injuries to Lamar and Luke. You also think Nash is the "best" as you say, correct? Well empirically he's not in the top 5 (he was just another all-star until he got put in that system). Only Kobe, Wade and a few others like Dirk are in the discussion for best player in the league. Kobe started off injured this season, but now in this last half of the Season he has really turned it on again. Again, this is all statistically true. If you don't use PER, you won't be able to determine exactly at what pace players generate their stats at; you won't realize that per possession, Nash isn't as great as you think. This "all around" crap is very overrated (with some exceptions like LeBron and Magic). All-around players like Odom are not better than various all-stars in the league. Points are one of the most important statistics in the game, Kobe doesn't have to do much else. When someone says Kobe is the best right now, don't have a heart attack because they make a fair point.
<div class="quote_poster">jealous? Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">i know Wade might have a better supporting cast but that does not take away from how good he is. he leads that team to play at its best potential. i personally think the lakers supporting cast 'can' be great. and i again personally think they just lack that leadership of a real team player, which in my mind takes away from kobe to be the best.</div> Here is the deal. Wade benefits from an obvious double standard here. Wade plays with Shaq and other very good role players. He has a better supporting cast than Kobe and plays in the much weaker eastern conference. Yet Miami is 36-30 and the Lakers 35-32. Add to that the fact that Miami is well below .500 without Shaq and well above .500 with Shaq in and Wade out. It would seem to me that Kobe is carrying a weaker team in a stronger conference. Yet I don't see anyone handing it to Wade about not being able to carry a team and maybe deferring more to Shaq since the team seems to play better with Shaq as the focus of the offense.
<div class="quote_poster">Fiyah Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">But the Kobe fans are not the one's making the comparisons. Its the non-Kobe fans who feel the need to pit their favorite up against the person they feel they need to go through - Kobe. They know which player is the one who stands in their way. And Kobe may have a lot of fans... but he also has a lot of detractors. I don't think there is a player in the game today who has such polar attention.</div> its both ways. around my work it happens more that some people would be talking about how good wade-mainly wade anyway- is and a kobe fan here will bring up why he thinks kobe is better. but it does happen both ways. just in my experience it happens more that the kobe fans are making the comparison. but im one guy with one experience. but i agree about no one having the vastivity of lovers and haters as much as kobe. but he lacks the totality of being the best in the league as opposed to wade and nash.
<div class="quote_poster">jealous? Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">its both ways. around my work it happens more that some people would be talking about how good wade-mainly wade anyway- is and a kobe fan here will bring up why he thinks kobe is better. but it does happen both ways. just in my experience it happens more that the kobe fans are making the comparison. but im one guy with one experience. but i agree about no one having the vastivity of lovers and haters as much as kobe. but he lacks the totality of being the best in the league as opposed to wade and nash.</div> Ugh, Nash again (Wade also gets more turnovers along with all those Assists as well, though he is good of course). Anyway, Michael jordan wasn't a great passer, but his PER speaks for itself. Scoring points efficiently and furiously is the main purpose of the game. Assists and such exist so that one's team will end up with more points on the board. The PER formula takes this into account. It just doesn't vaguely determine what is more important statistically or not like you.
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe's team only struggles when he has to put that "magic johnson" charade on combined with the injuries to Lamar and Luke. You also think Nash is the "best" as you say, correct? Well empirically he's not in the top 5 (he was just another all-star until he got put in that system). Only Kobe, Wade and a few others like Dirk are in the discussion for best player in the league. Kobe started off injured this season, but now in this last half of the Season he has really turned it on again. Again, this is all statistically true. If you don't use PER, you won't be able to determine exactly at what pace players generate their stats at; you won't realize that per possession, Nash isn't as great as you think. This "all around" crap is very overrated (with some exceptions like LeBron and Magic). All-around players like Odom are not better than various all-stars in the league. Points are one of the most important statistics in the game, Kobe doesn't have to do much else. When someone says Kobe is the best right now, don't have a heart attack because they make a fair point.</div> the 'all around' does apply with good suit. because like i said. to be the best in all aspects more so than anyone else. Odom doesnt do that better than nash or wade or many others for that matter in the 'all around' part. everyone talks about kobe being a spectical(sp?) to watch when he goes on scoring streaks. well that is more so watching Nash do everything. scoring--he can shoot, and has a near unheard of ability to weave traffic for the inside shot, and of course his assists, and he is an alright rebounder for his size, more so than kobe for his size and position.
<div class="quote_poster">jealous? Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">the 'all around' does apply with good suit. because like i said. to be the best in all aspects more so than anyone else. Odom doesnt do that better than nash or wade or many others for that matter in the 'all around' part.</div> And how did you determine that? His stats match-up favorably with many all-stars (not Wade's). Though, he of course isn't one and for good reason; he's not EFFICIENT enough per possession. You have NO WAY of knowing that without understanding complex nba jargon; similar to a casual NBA fan. If you don't take the time to look into that, you're just some other guy on the street with a vague opinion. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> everyone talks about kobe being a spectical(sp?) to watch when he goes on scoring streaks. well that is more so watching Nash do everything. scoring--he can shoot, and has a near unheard of ability to weave traffic for the inside shot, and of course his assists, and he is an alright rebounder for his size, more so than kobe for his size and position.</div> Yes but these are arbitrary conclusions. You don't understand the stats you're observing. The human eye can only measure so much by itself.
Jealous it seems you have something against Kobe could the fact that you don't like him be blinding you from seeing things everyone else sees?? Its hard to take someone seriously when they are a known Kobe hater, no matter what he does you will always be blind to the truth.
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">And how did you determine that? His stats match-up favorably with many all-stars (not Wade's). Though, he of course isn't one and for good reason; he's not EFFICIENT enough per possession. You have NO WAY of knowing that without understanding complex nba jargon; similar to a casual NBA fan. If you don't take the time to look into that, you're just some other guy on the street with a vague opinion. Yes but these are all arbitrary conclusions. You don't understand the stats you're observing. The human eye can only measure so much by itself.</div> i try to observe all aspects of a players game to conclude who is better. that is the only way to determine who is better than the other. all i have heard as to why kobe is better has to do with points and scoring. im sorry but to me, kobe can average 100 points a game, but if his team is still as bad as it is and he still lacks that leadership as a team contributor then he is still not the best to me. the best=all aspects of the game of basketball combined not just 1 or 2. it goes far beyond stats, its how you run a team . i mean if your the best on the team you are obligated to lead that team to play at its best, otherwise you get no where, more said about the lakers than suns or heat.
<div class="quote_poster">jealous? Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">i try to observe all aspects of a players game to conclude who is better. that is the only way to determine who is better than the other. all i have heard as to why kobe is better has to do with points and scoring. im sorry but to me, kobe can average 100 points a game, but if his team is still as bad as it is and he still lacks that leadership as a team contributor then he is still not the best to me. the best=all aspects of the game of basketball combined not just 1 or 2. it goes far beyond stats, its how you run a team . i mean if your the best on the team you are obligated to lead that team to play at its best, otherwise you get no where, more said about the lakers than suns or heat.</div> Well then, as much a genius as you believe yourself to be, your arguments will ALWAYS be flawed and your concept of a "great" player will be limited. Your naked eye alone isn't good enough.
<div class="quote_poster">xclutchx Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Jealous it seems you have something against Kobe could the fact that you don't like him be blinding you from seeing things everyone else sees?? Its hard to take someone seriously when they are a known Kobe hater, no matter what he does you will always be blind to the truth.</div> i can see how you might think that. the same applies to kobe fans. blinded by some great performances and thinking kobe had more to do with the championships than shaq. if i didnt have this avy and sig no one would know my status. hell i could of been a rare breed of kobe fan that thinks he is great but not the best, you never know. the thing is i have a sometimes childish 'humor' and the avy and sig came together to be funny. but your right i dont not like kobe, but first of all i am not ignorant, i know to see what i see when things happen. and i can tell you the reason my 'hatred' for kobe had always been going up is because of just opposite from what your saying, the fact that kobe fans will never see the bad in kobe no matter what.
<div class="quote_poster">jealous? Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">i can see how you might think that. the same applies to kobe fans. blinded by some great performances and thinking kobe had more to do with the championships than shaq. if i didnt have this avy and sig no one would know my status. hell i could of been a rare breed of kobe fan that thinks he is great but not the best, you never know. the thing is i have a sometimes childish 'humor' and the avy and sig came together to be funny. but your right i dont not like kobe, but first of all i am not ignorant, i know to see what i see when things happen. and i can tell you the reason my 'hatred' for kobe had always been going up is because of just opposite from what your saying, the fact that kobe fans will never see the bad in kobe no matter what.</div> People that believe Nash is in the discussion are blinded to a greater degree. He hasn't even been a strong MVP candidate the last few years. The system never gets credit.
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Well then, as much a genius as you believe yourself to be, your arguments will ALWAYS be flawed and your concept of a "great" player will be limited. Your naked eye alone isn't good enough.</div> am i wrong about this?? "the best=all aspects of the game of basketball combined" i never claimed to know all. and i never will. i look at stats everyday for random things, they do play a part of course but thats not all it is in being the best player.
<div class="quote_poster">jealous? Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">am i wrong about this?? "the best=all aspects of the game of basketball combined" i never claimed to know all. and i never will. i look at stats everyday for random things, they do play a part of course but thats not all it is in being the best player.</div> You are primarily measuring who has the greatest impact offensively; via assists or points; so yes, PER is the only way to measure them. PER takes every offensive stat into account. Of course, like any regular joe off the street you have no idea what it means. Now if you bring up defense, then PER has nothing to do with that, but you didn't mention that.
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You are primarily measuring who has the greatest impact offensively; via assists or points; so yes, PER is the only way to measure them. PER takes every offensive stat into account. Of course, like any regular joe off the street you have no idea what it means. Now if you bring up defense, then PER has nothing to do with that, but you didn't mention that.</div> what are you talking about? when i say every aspect of the game-that includes every aspect. all there is really to say about defense is if a player is good at it or not. so it wont come up as much. and i do know about efficiency of a player. i use to always calculate it in the playoffs between certian players. i know that it takes every stat into account and gives you the exact efficiency for a player. and on the PER as of now kobe is like 4 or 5 and wade is above him. nash is down a bit but, thats just a part of the equation. the PER does not show how much better you make your team with your leadership and presence. therefore the leagues MVP comes into play. how many does kobe have?-0 i think. and nash is top runner to make it 3 in a row.
You think Marion and Stoudemire are good all becuz of Nash? Did Nash playon the allstar game? NO. Marion and Stoudemire combo were dominating in the allstar game. Who was the one setting up for them? Kobe. Stoudemire was the 2nd on AllStar MVP. Marion was also shining in that game. Oh, you can say Allstar game is a leisure game and no one was being serious except Kobe, Lebron, Marion and Stoudemire....but the West won by so much and Kobe + Stoudemire + Marion were the killer combo. This is not only applied to Kobe. If you give Wade/Lebron/AI/Tmac Stoudemire and Marion, they will give you a ring easily.
<div class="quote_poster">TopLake Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You think Marion and Stoudemire are good all becuz of Nash? Did Nash playon the allstar game? NO. Marion and Stoudemire combo were dominating in the allstar game. Who was the one setting up for them? Kobe. Stoudemire was the 2nd on AllStar MVP. Marion was also shining in that game. Oh, you can say Allstar game is a leisure game and no one was being serious except Kobe, Lebron, Marion and Stoudemire....but the West won by so much and Kobe + Stoudemire + Marion were the killer combo. This is not only applied to Kobe. If you give Wade/Lebron/AI/Tmac Stoudemire and Marion, they will give you a ring easily.</div> the reason to most it is so leisure is because it means nothing my man. Fans vote in the starters. that does not validate kobe is better because he got in and nash didnt, that just means kobe has more fans which is understandable since kobe has generated more fans longer, and nash really hit his stride in the last few years.
<div class="quote_poster">jealous? Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">what are you talking about? when i say every aspect of the game-that includes every aspect. all there is really to say about defense is if a player is good at it or not. so it wont come up as much. and i do know about efficiency of a player. i use to always calculate it in the playoffs between certian players. i know that it takes every stat into account and gives you the exact efficiency for a player. and on the PER as of now kobe is like 4 or 5 and wade is above him. nash is down a bit but, thats just a part of the equation. the PER does not show how much better you make your team with your leadership and presence. therefore the leagues MVP comes into play. how many does kobe have?-0 i think. and nash is top runner to make it 3 in a row.</div> Yeah it does. Adjusted PER, which takes into account Assisted FG% (because the original formula is less specific), still only raises Nash's PER to around 26, which is Kobe's level (including Kobe's messed up stats at the start of the season after shortly having surgery). All your assumptions are false. And the league MVP is a joke, give me a break. Shaq has only one.
<div class="quote_poster">huevonkiller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah it does. Adjusted PER, which takes into account Assisted FG% (because the original formula is less specific), still only raises Nash's PER to around 26, which is Kobe's level (including Kobe's messed up stats at the start of the season after shortly having surgery). All your assumptions are false. And the league MVP is a joke, give me a break. Shaq has only one.</div> you make no sense. how are my so called 'assumptions' false and you just tried to say kobe's mess up stats at the start of the season. kobe came back from that injury when it was time to come back. and he played very well once he came back. your assuming he played worse when he came back than he would of healthy, but how do you know. your assuming. but what i know is i thought he would play worse than he did when he started the season, and in fact played good considering. im not trying to validate the league MVP until i was saying how its not just stats, its leadership, and the MVP means the most valuable player to your team, and nash was that. and chances are will be again. thats not saying other people are not important to their team but it shows nash's team needs him more than other teams to be good.
Fiyah brought up a great argument for Kobe being the measuring stick for everyone comparing who is best. What seems to limit people's appreciation for Kobe are their expectations of him. People's expectations of Kobe Bryant are for him to play at a high level every minute he's on the court. No one places those same expectations on Steve Nash, so when Nash does something you don't expect, you're more impressed by it.
<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Fiyah brought up a great argument for Kobe being the measuring stick for everyone comparing who is best. What seems to limit people's appreciation for Kobe are their expectations of him. People's expectations of Kobe Bryant are for him to play at a high level every minute he's on the court. No one places those same expectations on Steve Nash, so when Nash does something you don't expect, you're more impressed by it.</div> i expect every player to play thier best every minute of the game everyday. 20+ points and 11+ assist nearly every game is amazing 65 and 50 point games are amazing, but thats 2 games. Nash plays on a more consistent superb team ball. kobe plays a few superb games as a player.
