Kobe VS Jordan

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">He's already scored more points than Jordan did at the same age. He's already won more rings than Jordan did at the same age. Kobe Bryant has the opportunity to catch Jordan in every statistical category and surpass his ring total. I'm not saying the percentage is high, but their is still a possibility of Kobe Bryant finishing with better stats and more rings.

You are probably right, it's going to be hard to have a better team than the 2000 Laker dynasty. This current Laker team is a far cry from that. However, the next two or three seasons will determine if Kobe Bryant can win another title. It's going to depend on how this team does this year and next year, and then on who the Lakers add in 2007 or 2008.

Jordan's first title came when he was 28, and Kobe already has three titles and is only 27. I'm just pointing out Kobe is still young enough to surpass Jordan's accomplishments.</div>Yea, he is, but right now, I think he's up on Jordan by 18 points, and he's played 200 more games. While the totals are higher, he's really only higher because he's played more games.

I don't know about the more rings, but he can possibly have better stats, he would have to win 4 rings to have more rings, and without a dominant big man, or a great overall team, it's not as likely to happen, but a possiblity. The thing is that, unless the Bynum becomes really good, the Lakers are in a state where they can be a good team and be a lower playoff seed, or just out of the playoffs, which will constantly give them mid-range draft picks that won't like improve them drastically from year to year. So they'll get in one of those states of being a good team, but not ever getting to the "great" team level.

With the stats, the only thing is durability, Kobe has been averaging 70 games a year for his career, if he plays 70 games / year for another 10 years [till he's 37], and averages 23 PPG in that time [it will be like 27 PPG for the next first 5 years, and like 21-22 PPG on average for the last], he will end up about 2000 points short of Jordan's career points and with a career total of 30,000 ish.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting YourNewChef:</div><div class="quote_post">No he wouldn't. That explains why Jordon didn't win any rings during the Showtime/Celtic era. The competition was too great. In the 90's, the competition wasn't as intense. The best you had was Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Olajawan, and a bunch of other good, but not all star quality, players.
There is alot of talent now a days making it harder for teams to wini, plus the fact that most teams don't want to play team basketball.</div>
No No No...........Hakeem was the most talented, quickest, and agile bigman center EVER....Shaq and maybe Kareem could be considered above him, but don't get it twisted, Hakeem would DESTROY any bigman breathing today. Duncan, Garnett, Jermaine ONeal etc.............He wasn't just good, he was the one of the greatest to play the position.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">No No No...........Hakeem was the most talented, quickest, and agile bigman center EVER....Shaq and maybe Kareem could be considered above him, but don't get it twisted, Hakeem would DESTROY any bigman breathing today. Duncan, Garnett, Jermaine ONeal etc.............He wasn't just good, he was the one of the greatest to play the position.</div>

I never said Hakeem wasn't great.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">^^ YourChef you need to get a smaller signature max size is 468 (width) and 100 (height) Thank you.

I used to hate Hakeem Olajuwon, because he always took apart the Lakers. I always respected him though, and he would have dominated any era of basketball. I'm surprised more players haven't mimicked his game, the closest is probably KG, but he's not as smooth as Hakeem was.</div>

Yeah i agree Hakeem was a guard trapped in a centers body. Hakeem had the best all around game than any center. There wasnt anything that he couldnt do on the court.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting YourNewChef:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah those are sound players, but the BEST ones like Magic Johnson, Dominique Wilkins, and Isiah Thomas were coming to a end of their best years when Jordan was winning rings. Johnson, Wilkins, and Thomas were about 30-31 years old, which in NBA years is old. Not to mention that Jordan didn't have to deal with Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Dr. J while he was winning rings.</div>

At the same time you can look at who the Lakers have had to compete with for their champoinships that Shaq basically handed to Kobe: Pacers, Nets, Sixers?? And your saying that Jordan got to face easier competition?! The opponents the Bulls were facing were a lot better than what the Lakers walked through.
You need to rethink that post because you can say the exact same thing for Kobe getting to dodge the Bulls and Jordan.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Jordan's first title came when he was 28, and Kobe already has three titles and is only 27.</div>

Kobe was lucky enough to come along when Shaq was at his prime and the competition was weaker. Jordan had to start from scratch and build his game and the team into playoff and then championship form. Kobe is having to do that now.

 

Not sure if any of you caught this article by one of Phil Jackson's closest friends. It breaks down the all time best shooting guards. In case your wondering where he ranked MJ and Kobe, 1 and 4 respectively.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/3737458

 

away_27:

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">you can look at who the Lakers have had to compete with for their champoinships that Shaq basically handed to Kobe: Pacers, Nets, Sixers?? </div>

You forgot to put your beloved Kings in that group, as well as the spurs, AND the Blazers who beleive it or not were in the NBA elite when the Lakers were winning their titles. Your opinion is cleary biased by the fact that you listed teams from only the east, they had to through three rounds before they even got to the finals- and we all know that once they got there the title was already there's.

OH- and handed to Kobe??? Why do I distinctly remember Kobe averaging 26 5 and 5 in the playoffs through that stretch? Or hitting clutch shots (game winning ones as well) on numerous ocassions to bail the Lakers out when Shaq's free throws almost cost them games time and time again? Shaq didn't hand Kobe anything, they worked together for those rings and if you can't see that you shouldn't bother posting again in here.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting YourNewChef:</div><div class="quote_post"> The best you had was Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Olajawan, and a bunch of other good, but not all star quality, players..</div>
This is what you said earlier................and now your saying this:

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting YourNewChef:</div><div class="quote_post">I never said Hakeem wasn't great.</div>
Maybe you lost me somewhere................

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting STAT5:</div><div class="quote_post">FIRST OF ALL. YOUR AVATER IS INSULTING. THIS IS AN OPPINION. NOBODY ASKED YOU TO COMMENT ON IT. AND OBVIOSLY CONSIDERING YOUR A SEATTLE FAN YOU SHOULD TRY AND POST SOME WHERE ELSE. YOU GREW UP WATCHING ALL OF THOSE ALL STARS. AND YOU WATCH KOBE BRYANT FOR 20 GAMES AND YOU WANT TO JUDGE HIM. TRUH HURTS I KNOW YOU CANT TAKE IT BUT YOU SHOULD ATLEAST TRY</div>

Wow.

Man...you really put me in my place...and found the caps lock key in the process.

Hmmm. There are just a few things you got wrong. First, if you say that players are not "all-star quality", you should check and see if they were all stars. Logic tells you that if they were, (drum roll) they were "all-star quality" Second, if you never watched them play, your opinion does not count. Thats right, I said it. Voicing your opinion (w/one P) of something that you know nothing about is not only insulting, it's asinine. Third. how would you know how many of Kobe's games I've seen? There is this neat thing called the "NBA Package", which you can get more information about from your local cable provider, but, what I can tell you is they air basketball games. I have seen Kobe play plenty. Fourth and Finally, I never judged Kobe. In fact if you read back, I said you CAN compare him to Jordan. Go on, read back, this post will still be here when you get back. So, to summarize, you are wrong, you're wrong, wrong you are, and, oh ya, your so very wrong. There are two words you should look up to help you understand this post, but to save you the time and frustration, I will do it for you.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">o?pin?ion
n.
1. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.</div>

or more commonly prefered on a message board

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">2. A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert</div>

the other is

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">as?i?nine
adj.
1. Utterly stupid or silly: asinine behavior.
2. Of, relating to, or resembling an ass.
</div>

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ilive4ball:</div><div class="quote_post">away_27:



You forgot to put your beloved Kings in that group, as well as the spurs, AND the Blazers who beleive it or not were in the NBA elite when the Lakers were winning their titles. Your opinion is cleary biased by the fact that you listed teams from only the east, they had to through three rounds before they even got to the finals- and we all know that once they got there the title was already there's.

OH- and handed to Kobe??? Why do I distinctly remember Kobe averaging 26 5 and 5 in the playoffs through that stretch? Or hitting clutch shots (game winning ones as well) on numerous ocassions to bail the Lakers out when Shaq's free throws almost cost them games time and time again? Shaq didn't hand Kobe anything, they worked together for those rings and if you can't see that you shouldn't bother posting again in here.</div>

You're right, then Kobe must have been the finals MVP right? Wrong. Kobe wasn't even the best player on that team, which is why you can't even compare him to MJ who clearly led his team to 6 championships and claimed the Finals MVP award every time.

Bear in mind, the Blazers and my beloved Kings have no claim to fame because they never won championships. If we're going to debate great players you have to look at the great teams they defeated. If I'm not mistaken the Bulls managed to defeat the defending champion Detroit Pistons and your beloved Lakers in the same playoffs. Those are elite teams. Granted, the Spurs had won a championship the year before the Lakers won theirs but, oh wait, the Lakers didn't face the Spurs in the 99-00 playoffs. The Bulls competed in an era that consisted of great players and great dynasties and had to go through them to earn their spot among the NBA's greatest, and all the while they were lead by one person. Kobe wasn't the leader during the Laker's championships and now that he is the leader of his team we can all see how great of a job he's been doing. Now if you can't see that, you shouldn't bother posting here again!

 

I guess I worded it wrong and I blame myself. OK I guess where I am trying to come from is that they aren't players who were unstoppable. Kareem was unstoppable and Dr. J was almost unstoppable in his prime. Hakeem, I'll admit, gave Kareem a run for his money in 1984 playoffs by knocking the Lakers out of the playoffs. Hakeem caught his break with those two championships manily because Jordan was playing baseball and because Shaq was just a baby (to the NBA). Jordan was basically unstoppable. As far as Karl Malone and Charles Barkley go, I don't consider them GREAT hall of famers. Like Kenny Smith said, people w/out rings are losers. A harsh statement but somewhat true. Karl Malone had a good PPG and came close to a Ring 3 times but couldn't quite get it done even with the good lineup he was playing with. Eh don't flame me too bad lol.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting away_27:</div><div class="quote_post">You're right, then Kobe must have been the finals MVP right? Wrong. Kobe wasn't even the best player on that team, which is why you can't even compare him to MJ who clearly led his team to 6 championships and claimed the Finals MVP award every time.

Bear in mind, the Blazers and my beloved Kings have no claim to fame because they never won championships. If we're going to debate great players you have to look at the great teams they defeated. If I'm not mistaken the Bulls managed to defeat the defending champion Detroit Pistons and your beloved Lakers in the same playoffs. Those are elite teams. Granted, the Spurs had won a championship the year before the Lakers won theirs but, oh wait, the Lakers didn't face the Spurs in the 99-00 playoffs. The Bulls competed in an era that consisted of great players and great dynasties and had to go through them to earn their spot among the NBA's greatest, and all the while they were lead by one person. Kobe wasn't the leader during the Laker's championships and now that he is the leader of his team we can all see how great of a job he's been doing. Now if you can't see that, you shouldn't bother posting here again!</div>

Yeah the bulls beat the Detroit Pistons and Lakers. At the time beating the Pistons was great for the Bulls, but it was obvious they would beat the Lakers. The Lakers weren't elite anymore because......
1). Kareem retired
2). Pat Riley left LA
2). Magic was aging and losing his shape.

 

By no means am I saying that you have to be Finals MVP to be considered great or that Kobe was a big piece of the championships. What I am saying is that even in the Finals, Kobe wasn't considered the most valuable player something Jordan has always been. Kobe is a big part of the Lakers success but he is going to have to prove that he can win again with a different group of guys before we can consider Kobe a winner or begin to compare his legacy to Jordan's. We can compare skills because as far as creativity, ability, and overall skill go, Kobe is similar to Jordan. However, when people remember Jordan they will remember him leading his team to the championships and when they remember Kobe they will remember an immature, self-absorbed athlete who had skills but couldn't make it work.

Don't get me wrong, I hope Kobe gets it together and is successful but I don't think people will hold him in the same regards as Jordan.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting away_27:</div><div class="quote_post">By no means am I saying that you have to be Finals MVP to be considered great or that Kobe was a big piece of the championships.</div>

I mean... by no means am I saying that you have to be Finals MVP to be considered great or that Kobe wasn't a big piece of the championships.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You're right, then Kobe must have been the finals MVP right? Wrong. Kobe wasn't even the best player on that team, which is why you can't even compare him to MJ who clearly led his team to 6 championships and claimed the Finals MVP award every time.

Bear in mind, the Blazers and my beloved Kings have no claim to fame because they never won championships. If we're going to debate great players you have to look at the great teams they defeated. If I'm not mistaken the Bulls managed to defeat the defending champion Detroit Pistons and your beloved Lakers in the same playoffs. Those are elite teams. Granted, the Spurs had won a championship the year before the Lakers won theirs but, oh wait, the Lakers didn't face the Spurs in the 99-00 playoffs. The Bulls competed in an era that consisted of great players and great dynasties and had to go through them to earn their spot among the NBA's greatest, and all the while they were lead by one person. Kobe wasn't the leader during the Laker's championships and now that he is the leader of his team we can all see how great of a job he's been doing. Now if you can't see that, you shouldn't bother posting here again!</div>

So you give Kobe one season without Shaq and then judge him soley on that? How many Championships had Shaq won before Kobe arrived? Zero. And he'd had plenty of years to do it. He went to the finals and got thoroughly man-handled, but I guess your right. We should Judge Kobe and his career off one year in which the coach resigned, he and Lamar Odom both missed signifigant time, AND they changed up the offense mid year. Good call, we should definately base all of our opinions about Kobe on last season. Why didn't I think of that?

Anyways- Shaq put the Lakers into the position to win games (with Kobe's help) But it was kobe that actually won the games for the Lakers. Your talking about leadership in both Shaq and Jordan, but where was Shaq when games mattered most? I'll tell you where he was, bricking free-throws or on the bench for that very reason. When the team needed a basket, a stop, or momentum- they looked to one man to Lead them to victory- Kobe Bryant. And victorious they were, because of his play in the most intense situations, on the worlds biggest stage. He has 3 rings to prove it, no- not Finals MVP's- but Championship Rings. When players talk about the NBA- they don't say "I just wanna win finals MVP this year". They say "I just want to win a championship". Finals MVP or not, he has the rings. Chauncy Billups has a Finals MVP for crying out loud- you think he's ever going to be mentioned in the same sentence as Jordan? If you do- Please don't bother responding.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ilive4ball:</div><div class="quote_post">So you give Kobe one season without Shaq and then judge him soley on that? How many Championships had Shaq won before Kobe arrived? Zero. And he'd had plenty of years to do it. He went to the finals and got thoroughly man-handled, but I guess your right. We should Judge Kobe and his career off one year in which the coach resigned, he and Lamar Odom both missed signifigant time, AND they changed up the offense mid year. Good call, we should definately base all of our opinions about Kobe on last season. Why didn't I think of that?

Anyways- Shaq put the Lakers into the position to win games (with Kobe's help) But it was kobe that actually won the games for the Lakers. Your talking about leadership in both Shaq and Jordan, but where was Shaq when games mattered most? I'll tell you where he was, bricking free-throws or on the bench for that very reason. When the team needed a basket, a stop, or momentum- they looked to one man to Lead them to victory- Kobe Bryant. And victorious they were, because of his play in the most intense situations, on the worlds biggest stage. He has 3 rings to prove it, no- not Finals MVP's- but Championship Rings. When players talk about the NBA- they don't say "I just wanna win finals MVP this year". They say "I just want to win a championship". Finals MVP or not, he has the rings. Chauncy Billups has a Finals MVP for crying out loud- you think he's ever going to be mentioned in the same sentence as Jordan? If you do- Please don't bother responding.</div>

Let me introduce you to a player named Anfernee Hardaway. If you remember back in the day when Shaq played for the Magic, the other star player was making a lot of noise in the league. So much so that many people made comparisons and said that Penny would be the next Jordan. In case your not familiar with what happened to Penny, he wined a lot, got a hurt a lot, and ended overpaid and never heard from again.

Here is the point to all of this: Shaq is one of the best players to play the game. He makes players as good as they can be. Granted, Kobe is a great player, but it is unfair to a man like Michael Jordan who has built such an incredible legacy, to compare players who have just begun their careers. You even said yourself it is unfair to look at Kobe's one year without Shaq, well in the same sense, it is unfair to compare Kobe at this point to Jordan because you have no idea what will become of him. There is a possibility Kobe will lead his team to another championship, but there is a possibility Kobe could fade out just like Penny Hardaway, we just don't know. We've seen Kobe can win with Shaq, but to compare him to someone as great as Jordan, we have to see him lead, something he hasn't done. Remember, Jordan did EVERYTHING. So we can compare skills if you'd like, but to compare their greatness is rediculous. Now, please stop with the whole "don't respond to this" because this is a good debate and that's getting a little silly.