Kobe VS Jordan

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting away_27:</div><div class="quote_post">Let me introduce you to a player named Anfernee Hardaway. If you remember back in the day when Shaq played for the Magic, the other star player was making a lot of noise in the league. So much so that many people made comparisons and said that Penny would be the next Jordan. In case your not familiar with what happened to Penny, he wined a lot, got a hurt a lot, and ended overpaid and never heard from again.

Here is the point to all of this: Shaq is one of the best players to play the game. He makes players as good as they can be. Granted, Kobe is a great player, but it is unfair to a man like Michael Jordan who has built such an incredible legacy, to compare players who have just begun their careers. You even said yourself it is unfair to look at Kobe's one year without Shaq, well in the same sense, it is unfair to compare Kobe at this point to Jordan because you have no idea what will become of him. There is a possibility Kobe will lead his team to another championship, but there is a possibility Kobe could fade out just like Penny Hardaway, we just don't know. We've seen Kobe can win with Shaq, but to compare him to someone as great as Jordan, we have to see him lead, something he hasn't done. Remember, Jordan did EVERYTHING. So we can compare skills if you'd like, but to compare their greatness is rediculous. Now, please stop with the whole "don't respond to this" because this is a good debate and that's getting a little silly.</div>

For once I actually agree with what you have to say. Athletically, competitively, skill-wise Kobe is right there with Jordan. We just don't know if he can handle the concentrated defenses that Jordan did. We don't know if he will lead his team to a championship. I'm well aware of Penny Hardaway, and will be extremely disappointed if Kobe suffers the same fate. It would be unfair to the game of basketball if Kobe suffered a serious injury that jeapordized his career. Anyways, I guess we'll have to see how this all plays out and in five years if there are still debates about Kobe or Jordan, than I think it'll be safe to say that Kobe has earned the right to truly be compared to the Great one.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting YourNewChef:</div><div class="quote_post">I guess I worded it wrong and I blame myself. OK I guess where I am trying to come from is that they aren't players who were unstoppable. Kareem was unstoppable and Dr. J was almost unstoppable in his prime. Hakeem, I'll admit, gave Kareem a run for his money in 1984 playoffs by knocking the Lakers out of the playoffs. Hakeem caught his break with those two championships manily because Jordan was playing baseball and because Shaq was just a baby (to the NBA). .</div>
No..............The Rockets OWNED the Bulls during that era. We had the best record of any team against the Bulls when MJ was there. The only team that dominated the Bulls on the 90's. Hakeem was UNSTOPPABLE and ABUSE which ever center they put out there, Will Perdue, Wennington, Longley, Rodman etc.............The Rockets earned they're rings.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting away_27:</div><div class="quote_post"> Kobe is a big part of the Lakers success but he is going to have to prove that he can win again with a different group of guys before we can consider Kobe a winner or begin to compare his legacy to Jordan's.</div>
Why is that? If Phil traded Pippen and Kukoc and everybody else on the Bulls, and got back WAY lesser talent, could MJ win a title with that team? If he happen to fail the first year, would you question his legacy?
People hold Kobe to standards that are almost impossible to live up to. I agree with you to certain extent, but Kobe's already a winner.Three rings is an incredible accomplishment. I hear people say "well could he win a ring without Shaq". My response would be "Could Magic win a ring without Kareem" or "Could Bird win a ring without Mchale", better yet "Could Jordan win a ring without Pippen". The answer to all the questions is "HELL NO". Does that mean Magic, Bird, or Jordan don't deserve the credit? Obcourse Kobe needed Shaq, because stars need each other. I gotta tell you though, Shaq didn't hand Kobe anything. Kobe bailed the Lakers out so many times, it ain't even funny. First of all, Shaq can't shoot free throws. So Kobe almost always had the ball in the clutch, and it seemed like he ALWAYS came through. Teams Kobe destroyed..............Portland, Pacers, Sixers, San Antonio. Even Bruce Bowen's "so called" great defense got EMBARRASSED.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">No..............The Rockets OWNED the Bulls during that era. We had the best record of any team against the Bulls when MJ was there. The only team that dominated the Bulls on the 90's. Hakeem was UNSTOPPABLE and ABUSE which ever center they put out there, Will Perdue, Wennington, Longley, Rodman etc.............The Rockets earned they're rings.


Why is that? If Phil traded Pippen and Kukoc and everybody else on the Bulls, and got back WAY lesser talent, could MJ win a title with that team? If he happen to fail the first year, would you question his legacy?
People hold Kobe to standards that are almost impossible to live up to. I agree with you to certain extent, but Kobe's already a winner.Three rings is an incredible accomplishment. I hear people say "well could he win a ring without Shaq". My response would be "Could Magic win a ring without Kareem" or "Could Bird win a ring without Mchale", better yet "Could Jordan win a ring without Pippen". The answer to all the questions is "HELL NO". Does that mean Magic, Bird, or Jordan don't deserve the credit? Obcourse Kobe needed Shaq, because stars need each other. I gotta tell you though, Shaq didn't hand Kobe anything. Kobe bailed the Lakers out so many times, it ain't even funny. First of all, Shaq can't shoot free throws. So Kobe almost always had the ball in the clutch, and it seemed like he ALWAYS came through. Teams Kobe destroyed..............Portland, Pacers, Sixers, San Antonio. Even Bruce Bowen's "so called" great defense got EMBARRASSED.</div>

Whew, where to start?
First of all, Phil doesn't trade anyone. Phil can make recommendations for trades but he doesn't trade anyone. If he could, he would have traded Kobe numerous times, he states this in his diary "The Last Season" so you can look it up if you don't believe it.
Secondly, look at the squad that was around for the first few championships. MJ, Pippen, Paxson, Cartwright, Grant. Many people would say this is a less talented lineup. The point is that Jordan has been able to consistently win with many different lineups. Kobe was able to win with more or less the same lineup during their championship runs, but now we have to see what he can do to help get the team back to that form. Remember, Jordan began leading a non-playoff team into the playoffs every year he was with the Bulls, which proves he was still relatively successful on his own. We'll just have to see what Kobe can do now to begin to be compared to Jordan.

I know this was not directed at me but in response to your post to Rock4Life, if the Rockets dominated the Bulls in the 90's like you said they did, where were the championships during the years that Jordan played? In fact, if they were so good, why weren't there any Bulls-Rockets matchups in the Finals?
Don't get me wrong, it's great to hear someone supporting Hakeem because he truly was one of the greatest centers ever, however to say that the Rockets dominated the Bulls is a bit of an overstatement.

 

this post is more about comparing their personalities. athletically, i think they're both gifted, but what u said in the first post is jordan has an image that was built by nike, etc. and he never showed any personality. that's how kobe acts exactly as well. kobe is dry and boring. insightful at times, but he tries to play up to the same image as jordan does. he even acts similarly to jordan in many interviews. so i dont understand why u like kobe's personality more than jordan. their personalities were both built by sponsors and corporate personas. u also said jordan says republicans buy tennis shoes too so thats why he doesnt state personal opinions. when has kobe ever seemed to ever truly speak his mind like a barkley or rasheed wallace. not saying kobe's a bad guy but his personality is eerily close to jordans.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting away_27:</div><div class="quote_post">Whew, where to start?
First of all, Phil doesn't trade anyone. Phil can make recommendations for trades but he doesn't trade anyone. If he could, he would have traded Kobe numerous times, he states this in his diary "The Last Season" so you can look it up if you don't believe it...</div>

I was just makin a statemnet saying that Jordan wouldn't have one his rings without Scottie Pippen. Meaning the same can be applied when people say Kobe ain't nothin without Shaq. It was hypothetical.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting away_27:</div><div class="quote_post">Secondly, look at the squad that was around for the first few championships. MJ, Pippen, Paxson, Cartwright, Grant. Many people would say this is a less talented lineup. The point is that Jordan has been able to consistently win with many different lineups. Kobe was able to win with more or less the same lineup during their championship runs, but now we have to see what he can do to help get the team back to that form. Remember, Jordan began leading a non-playoff team into the playoffs every year he was with the Bulls, which proves he was still relatively successful on his own. We'll just have to see what Kobe can do now to begin to be compared to Jordan..</div>
Aslong as you have MJ and Pippen in one line up, that's a great line up. 2 hall of famers, and maybe the best at they're positions. So I wouldn't call that line up less talented. The Lakers last year not only had a TERRIBLE team, they had to deal with injuries, and a lousy coach for most of the season. Plus it was only one year. Give Kobe time to work with a good coach, and a better balance of players, then judge him on his team play.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting away_27:</div><div class="quote_post">
I know this was not directed at me but in response to your post to Rock4Life, if the Rockets dominated the Bulls in the 90's like you said they did, where were the championships during the years that Jordan played? In fact, if they were so good, why weren't there any Bulls-Rockets matchups in the Finals?
Don't get me wrong, it's great to hear someone supporting Hakeem because he truly was one of the greatest centers ever, however to say that the Rockets dominated the Bulls is a bit of an overstatement.</div>
Two words, Seattle Supersonics. We were probably favorites in the West back then, but couldn't ever get past Seattle. They just had a mental edge over us. It sounds crazy, but some teams match up with other teams better than others. Chicago had NO CENTER during they're run. Hakeem would have TORTURED all of them. Not to mention that Maxwell's defense on Jordan was better than most. That's why we beat them most of the time. That's why we dominated the Bulls almost everytime we played them. Seattle was younger, and could match up with Hakeem with big phyical players. Sean Kemp and Gary Payton gave us SO MANY problems. I HATED Seattle back then. lol. But you can't take anything away from our rings. Our record against the Bulls back then was always good.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Odde24:</div><div class="quote_post">So, to summarize, you are wrong, you're wrong, wrong you are, and, oh ya, your so very wrong. </div>

Nice to see odde24 back at the pawn shop. Didn't you used to be odde13 or something?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Chicago had NO CENTER during they're run. Hakeem would have TORTURED all of them.</div>

You just made a mistake that a lot of people made in assuming that the Bulls had no center. Unfortunately, Luc Longley is one of the most underrated centers that has ever played. Granted, he was lucky enough to be on a team that allowed his skills to stand out, but nevertheless he was still a great team player. Read this post about Luc by Charley Rosen:

Luc Longley (9.1 ppg) was a gifted passer and was therefore a considerable upgrade over Cartwright. Luc had the bulk (7-2, 320) to clog the middle, and to bang with the other behemoths. But it was his ability to read defenses and make precise passes that helped make the triangle difficult to defend.

It was just the little things he did that made the Bulls what they were.

Now I think you missed my comparison. I was stating that Jordan with no Pippen still lead the Bulls to the playoffs. Kobe with no Shaq has so far done nothing. You're right, we will see what happens but at this point there is no comparisons. You said yourself we'll have to see what Kobe does, so why are we making comparisons? We saw what Jordan did.

I will give you that a Rockets-Bulls matchup in the Finals would have been great to watch. But to say that the Rockets dominated the Bulls is an overstatement because they may have won the regular season matchups but they couldn't even make it to the finals. The Pippen-Jordan tandem was definitely stronger than the Olajuwan-Drexler or Olajuwan-whoever tandem.

 

Actually, Bill Cartwright ended his career with the Bulls in '94 and Longley began it that same year. I don't think they overlapped much, they both only played 40 something games that year. The Bulls did however have decent big men even though they were not standout stars, they were great role players.

You may not agree with Rosen's writings but his take on Luc Longley is accurate. What don't you like about his articles?

 

i agree with shape, that the bulls used a lot of big bodies to beat up players, PJax even talked about using something called the "three-pronged dragon" or something of that name; anyhow, since they had a lack of a good center, they would combine the fouls of 3 centers and use them to their advantage. They would beat up players with hard fouls.

 

I hate to compare players to greats of the past. How about not viewing Kobe and Jordan together and let Kobe make his own legacy outside of Jordan. All the variables that have been discussed thus far in this thread just are a testament to how different their careers have been to this point. I guess it is the highest form of flattery for any guard to be compared to Jordan due to him being so universally loved their is such a void these days that people are looking for the next big thing to fill that void with. Players need to build their own legacies not be compared to greats of the past. I think Kobe is at fault partly for these comparisons due to the way he embraced them early in his career, but lets move on now. Kobe is Kobe and Jordan was Jordan they are two different players who can both have their own legacies why must we always compare the two.

In short lets forget about this...


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And remember Kobe as this...

 

*Copyright*

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting STAT5:</div><div class="quote_post">Why can't America embrace Kobe and his ozone-piercing potential? Why can't they realize that falling in love with Kobe doesn't mean breaking up with Michael? I mean, what's not to love?

Michael Jordan was a great player. He also was a great salesman. And that was all he ever was, and that seems to be all that he ever will be. There's nothing wrong with that. He made some great plays and some pretty good commercials. Has anyone so completely dominated his sport and left so small a mark upon it? From the very beginning of his professional career, and long before he'd won anything at all, Michael Jordan and his handlers worked so diligently at developing the brand that it ultimately became impossible to remember where the logo left off and the person began. He talked like a man raised by focus groups. He created a person without edges, smooth and sleek and without any places for anyone to get a grip on him. He was roundly, perfectly manufactured, and he was cosseted, always, by his creators and his caretakers, against the nicks and dings that happen to any other public person. He held himself aloof from the emerging hip-hop culture that became? For good and ill? The predominant culture of the NBA. Remember, he once warned us, Republicans buy shoes, too. He always sold himself to people older than he was.

"He's the best player in the game right now," Pacers guard Reggie Miller said last Year, after Kobe went for 40 points to help the Lakers beat the Pacers. "He's playing basketball that's as good as I've seen in my career." Of course, Miller?s only been in the league for 18 years.

You want to argue? Bring it. But Before You go and start making a fool out of yourself, take the time to read the Bold.

Jordan never had a Shaq. True and Kobe never had a Hall of Fame swingman like Scottie Pippin. Or a rebound-munching forward as Dennis Rodman was in his prime. You think he wouldn't be handy to have around? Why, yes, Dennis, I would like to shoot again, thanks!

Jordan won 10 scoring titles. Kobe's got zilch. I watched Kobe score 56 in three quarters against Memphis the man could win a scoring title wearing Muppet slippers. But many nights he had to put his ego in a jar to keep Shaq-Fu happy and well-fed with points. Plus, Kobe has the burden of handling the rock an awful lot -- more than Jordan. "I'm not saying it's harder," says Kobe, "but it consumes a lot more energy, having those little guards crawling on you all the time. It's definitely more running."

Kobe doesn't D-up like Jordan. True, but he's learning. He's averaging a career-best 7.0 rebounds, too. Jordan only beat that once. He's got the Bally's body at 24 that Jordan didn't build until he was 30.

I don't see six rings on Kobe's fingers. Let's say Kobe retires when Jordan will, at 40. That means he'd play 23 seasons. You think Kobe can't get four more rings in the next 16 seasons? "Seven rings, eight rings, nine rings," Kobe says, "I don't care. I just want to win. Every year."

Yeah, well, the world will never love Kobe as much as Jordan. True, but maybe that's because Michael came first. If the order had been reversed, would Kobe have the IMAX movies, the jingles and the shoes? Would Michael be the one wearing Kobe's throwback at the All-Star Game?

Kobe screwed up. Probably more than once. He's an idiot for cheating on his young wife and baby. He's a loser for taking advantage of a star-struck 19-year-old hostess who was probably swept up in the moment by Kobe's three championship rings, until she realized there was a fourth ring to be found. I don't excuse his actions for one minute, and I think he got the public pillory he deserved. But so did the great Michael Jordan. But Jordan never got caught.

They said nobody would ever punk Ruth's numbers. Then came Aaron. They said nobody would go lower than Nicklaus. Then came Tiger. Just roll the possibility around on your tongue for a second: Kobe Bryant could end up the greatest player in NBA history.

"Ooh," says Kobe, "you just gave me goose bumps."

So, Kobe or Jordan?

My oppinion:Jordan Will Never Approach Kobe's Immortality.</div>





[/SIZE]Wednesday March 05, 2003 9:43 AM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_ga..._of_reilly0303/

That's an article written by Rick Reily on March 5th, 2005. [/SIZE]

It's a great article and I didn't see the source when you posted that. Cmon man that's just wrong to get all that credit.

Mr. Reilly deserves the credit of that analysis. That made me sick

and want to throw up when I saw people giving you credit for thinking you

wrote that. That's totally not cool dude.



On a side not, I don't want to judge the comparison of Kobe's career yet

because it's not over. Once Kobe retires from basketball, I will make the

comparison. It's not fair to say that "there's no absolute way Kobe can pass

Michael." Kobe has proved to be a hall of fame basketball player so far in his

career, and he isn't finished. Let's see how much more Kobe can accomplish

then we can make the comparison.

 

HA I didn't even know that he was plagarizing somebody else's work. That's just wrong. But I'd have to say i agree with what you said Pimpdaddy about the fact that Kobe's career is not over yet, and until it is, we'll never know if he'll be better/worse/same level as Michael in basketball regards. As a social icon he'll probably never reach the same level as MJ because he's already not publicly perfect. MJ worked so hard to make his image perfect and had a lot of support from Stern and the nba to be marketed as the best thing ever. Only time will tell in this argument, at this point obviously MJ should be considered better, but we'll see.

 

I"m sorry you wasted all of that time writing your points out, but its was a COMPLETE waste of time. KOBE will never be Jordan...Period. Jordan lead his bulls to multiple championships....Jordan was never pushed to a game 7 in the finals. Jordan knew how to put a choke hold on any team he was playing...sorry but kobe just isn't that good. Did jordan have a good suporting cast? Kinda...not great, but not bad either. I woud say Kobe has just as good of a supporting cast as Jordan had, but why hasn't kobe succeeded?

Well?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I"m sorry you wasted all of that time writing your points out, but its was a COMPLETE waste of time. KOBE will never be Jordan...Period. Jordan lead his bulls to multiple championships....Jordan was never pushed to a game 7 in the finals. Jordan knew how to put a choke hold on any team he was playing...sorry but kobe just isn't that good. Did jordan have a good suporting cast? Kinda...not great, but not bad either. I woud say Kobe has just as good of a supporting cast as Jordan had, but why hasn't kobe succeeded?

Well?</div>

Well- Kobe Bryant has 3 championship rings, has been an all star for the last 6 or 7 years straight. Is always considered for defensive player of the year. Has multiple All-NBA seasons, and is just entering his prime at 27. If that's not success I don't know what else you want. He had one bad season this last year, Jordan was in the L 7 years or so before he got his first championship. Give kobe more than a year to prove himself and you'll probably be singing a different tune.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting phunky420:</div><div class="quote_post">I"m sorry you wasted all of that time writing your points out, but its was a COMPLETE waste of time. KOBE will never be Jordan...Period. Jordan lead his bulls to multiple championships....Jordan was never pushed to a game 7 in the finals. Jordan knew how to put a choke hold on any team he was playing...sorry but kobe just isn't that good. Did jordan have a good suporting cast? Kinda...not great, but not bad either. I woud say Kobe has just as good of a supporting cast as Jordan had, but why hasn't kobe succeeded?

Well?</div>

Rick Reilly did point out some good points though in his article. Michael had the system made for him. Kobe played in a ssytem that was made for Shaq. Kobe had to take a backseat many games. Kobe would get 40 one night then get 20 another night because it would be Shaq's night. Michael had Scottie a top 50 player of all time. Scotte is one of the best defensive players of all time. Dennis Roddman is one of the best rebounders of all time and shot blockers. Granted that Michael didn't have a great low post precense like Kobe but that works both ways as a positive and negatitve. As a positive, you don't have as many double teams and you have more open shots without the other team focusing on you. But as a negative, it would hurt Kobe's stats. Kobe couldn't get all the stats that he had potential of getting because it was Shaq's team.

Now it's Kobe's team and this will be a dynasty in the making. Kobe will win scoring titles and all kinds of awards. Don't deny it because it will happen. He will lift the Lakers back into the glory land.

 

Statistically, yes, Kobe definitely has a chance to equal or surpass Michael...like its been mentioned, he has 3 rings at age 27 when Michael got his first at 28...he has more points scored, blah blah...so yes, STATISTICALLY, Kobe has a chance to be Michael's equal, or even superior..

however, we have to remember that Jordan revolutionized the game...Jordan took opponents apart and DOMINATED...he was just as intense on offense as he was on defense...he also shot 50% for much of his career! For a GUARD...thats absurd...there was no weakness in his game...he became the face of the NBA and made everyone fall in love with professional basketball...thats what makes him so great...he put a face on the sport, and also paved the way for young guards like Kobe, VC, J-Rich, etc who mimic his game and his moves...he's such an influence that you cannot approach a star guard in today's game and for him not to tell you that MJ played some role in his development as a basketball player...

Kobe can win six more rings and score 30,000 more points...he still will NEVER be Michael Jordan...

 

I just think it's hilarious that all the people on here that are actually comparing Kobe to Michael and thinking that Kobe could EVER be close to him are the people who have their favourite player being Kobe on their avatar (a bit of bias?)

Yes Scottie was great, but during the years where Jordan was prematurely retired (playing baseball) he was only average. Jordan had a lot to do with Scottie's success, and I'm sure even Pip will admit that.

Rodman was a vacuum on the boards, but he couldn't win games on his own, and was only their for three chips. Your arguments are clearly biased in Kobe's favour. Jordan came onto a Bulls team in his rookie season that was one of the worst in the league. In a short time, he turned a bunch of role players (even Pippen was a role player to some extent) into contenders and eventually one of the greatest dynasties in sports history.

Jordan is undisputably the greatest player of all time, and to say Kobe Bryant will be better is an insult to Jordan's name. Rick Reilly's article is an absolute joke (but I've come to expect that from the same idiot who said Lebron would suck [even though I myself am not a Lebron fan]).

Kobe, up until last year, wasn't even the best player on his team. Shaq lead them to those titles, and no Kobe fan (no matter how biased they are) can deny that. It's not like Kobe had such a bad team to work with this year either. Atkins, Butler, Mihm, Odom. I don't doubt for one second that Jordan would have at least took that team to the 2nd round (probably even thrid).

All this without even mentioning that Kobe's notorious for not getting along with teammates, coaches and management.

There was a time long ago when you could possibly mention Kobe's name with Jordan's, but that time has long past.

Anyway, this article is three years old, and before the rape charges and all the feuding. I don't think even someone like Reilly could sat Kobe has an outside chance of eclipsing Jordan now. Anyway this thread has thus far served its purpose IMO: I had a good laugh reading some of the posts.

 

[quote name='Houston']Statistically, yes, Kobe definitely has a chance to equal or surpass Michael...like its been mentioned, he has 3 rings at age 27 when Michael got his first at 28...he has more points scored, blah blah...so yes, STATISTICALLY, Kobe has a chance to be Michael's equal, or even superior..

however, we have to remember that Jordan revolutionized the game...Jordan took opponents apart and DOMINATED...he was just as intense on offense as he was on defense...he also shot 50% for much of his career! For a GUARD...thats absurd...there was no weakness in his game...he became the face of the NBA and made everyone fall in love with professional basketball...thats what makes him so great...he put a face on the sport, and also paved the way for young guards like Kobe, VC, J-Rich, etc who mimic his game and his moves...he's such an influence that you cannot approach a star guard in today's game and for him not to tell you that MJ played some role in his development as a basketball player...

That's true. Jordan changed the game like no other. Jordan was insane. It was crazy how good he was. But Kobe's career isn't over. I'm not saying that he can but his career isn't over. I'm a Kobe fan. But I also think t-mac, lebron, and dwyane wade all have a chance but unlikely. So I'm not bias in this argument.

Ohh and by the way Michael said that one day there will be a player better than him. That there is no perfect baller. You get better by watching guys like Michael. He got better by watching Dr. J. See what he means. He knows that one day there will be someone better but maybe not the same way he took over the world like Jordan.

 

The reason why I dont care for Jordan? Too many people immortalize him. Someone is going to step up and be greater, whether is be Kobe, Lebron, or some other up and coming star... He's human just like everyone else. Jordan was great. But there are others who names can be said in the same breathe as Jordan. Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Hakeem, Isiah Thomas, etc... Many of them revolutionized the game in ways that were unheard of during there time. It will happen again. BELIEVE IT!!!!