<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real Deal @ Feb 16 2006, 05:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Let me guess...LeBron would be getting 20 assists with Shaq? Kobe's high in assists came last season, by the way...not with O'Neal.With a strong center, LeBron would not be grabbing 7 boards a game, and if that center was a scoring machine, Bron's PPG would drop as well. Furthermore, if you think James can average 10 assists per game, you're sadly mistaken.</div>Yes, and Kobe's PPG went down, FG % was alltime low, his TO numbers were disgusting, etc...Bron's PPG WOULDN'T drop! He doesn't demand the ball and need more than 25FGA like Kobe does. He only takes 22 to get to 31PPG, and I highly doubt any coach wouldn't make bron #1 scorer and #1 passer, and have him taking any less shot attempts than he does now. I also never said he would get 10APG, but his APG would go up to 8-9, maybe more.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Feb 16 2006, 04:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yes, and Kobe's PPG went down, FG % was alltime low, his TO numbers were disgusting, etc...Bron's PPG WOULDN'T drop! He doesn't demand the ball and need more than 25FGA like Kobe does. He only takes 22 to get to 31PPG, and I highly doubt any coach wouldn't make bron #1 scorer and #1 passer, and have him taking any less shot attempts than he does now. I also never said he would get 10APG, but his APG would go up to 8-9, maybe more.</div>Three more shots to get 35 PPG...wow, that's a huge leap, especially when they are shots, instead of dunks.Bron's PPG would drop, because he would be passive with a teammate. Doesn't he draw comparisons to Magic Johnson? I'm trying to understand why one moment, he can be Magic, and the next...he's Jordan.If you think that LeBron can average 31 PPG, 7 RPG and 9 APG with a younger Shaq...you've just ended this thread. You might as well take the opportunity to call LeBron the greatest player that ever lived...go ahead, you've got the floor.
Last year he played a different role on the team. This year he is designated scorer, not in Bron's position of sole playmaker, so his shots are comign with less pressure (thanks to Odom and setting him up). He is not passive with Z. he is not passive with Hughes....yet both get 16PPG or more. And again, he would never take less than 22FGA per game, which he is taking right now. Kobe was able to take 25FGA with a healthy and younger Shaq, so LeBron would definately take 22FGA or more.Even if he did have those stats he wouldn't be better than Kobe, as his defense is still poor and can't take over in clutch moments. That means more than getting 31/9/7 with a younger Shaq. But yes, LeBron could very well get those numbers with a dominant center. Shaq never took more than 15-17 shots per game with Kobe on the team, so I see no reason why LeBron couldn't keep scoring. Putting up 22 FGA and scoring 31PPG has nothing to do with kill instonct. Bron has taken the scoring and passing reigns for 3 years now...ever since he was 18. He would not be passive with a dominant center (except maybe in the clutch).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Feb 16 2006, 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Shaq never took more than 15-17 shots per game with Kobe on the team</div>You sure about that?1996-1997: 19.4 per game1997-1998: 19.1 per game1998-1999: 18.1 per game1999-2000: 21.1 per game2000-2001: 19.2 per game2001-2002: 18.3 per game2002-2003: 18.1 per game2003-2004: 14.1 per game (with Malone and Payton)
Ok, one season he took over 20 shot per, but the others were 18-19. If you replaced Z with Shaq, that is about 6 more shots for the center position. That is 6 more attempts for assists to Lebron, and you gotta figure the other players shot attempts would lower. Hughes wouldn't be shooting as much as he does, and Bron would still get 22 FGA or more per game. Again, even if Shaq came to Cavs, bron would still be #1 scoring option. It was in 2001-2002 when Kobe started becoming a truly great player scoring wise, and Shaq's FGA dropped, and Kobe went above 22 FGA.So again, I don't really see your point. Bron's numbers all around would go up, even his FG % as he wouldn't need to take some of the hard shots he takes in double teams.
LeBron is the greatest. In five years, he'll average 35/9/9 no matter who's on his team. He may even have three rings by then, and a couple of All-Defensive First Teams.[/sarcasm]<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Feb 16 2006, 05:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ok, one season he took over 20 shot per, but the others were 18-19. If you replaced Z with Shaq, that is about 6 more shots for the center position. That is 6 more attempts for assists to Lebron, and you gotta figure the other players shot attempts would lower. Hughes wouldn't be shooting as much as he does, and Bron would still get 22 FGA or more per game. Again, even if Shaq came to Cavs, bron would still be #1 scoring option. It was in 2001-2002 when Kobe started becoming a truly great player scoring wise, and Shaq's FGA dropped, and Kobe went above 22 FGA.So again, I don't really see your point. Bron's numbers all around would go up, even his FG % as he wouldn't need to take some of the hard shots he takes in double teams.</div>Hughes? Larry Hughes isn't even playing.And all you're telling me is that you expect Bron's stats to be over 31 PPG, with 9-10 assists and 7-8 boards. It's not going to happen, ever. Kobe and Shaq averaged 30 and 28 together, in the same season, and Kobe only managed 5.6 APG that year. There's no chance in hell LeBron would average 30 and 10, if another teammate averaged 30 PPG as well.
Well, he is averaging 31 PPG on 5 less FGA's then Kobe, he is averaging 3 more assists than Kobe, has about 3 more triple doubles this seaosn, and first player in decades to have over 27/7/7. If he could improve his defense like he improved his jumpshot, he will be better than Kobe.And you are the one gloating that Kobe will win more rings. You can quote me, Kobe will NEVER win another ring. He had his chance, and he was one of the main reasons why one of the greatest lakers teams of all time broke up. He also could have took a price cut like KG to bring in new talent, or could have went somehwere else with better chances, but he chose LA at a max contract, so he clearly doesn't have as much desire to win another championship as he does to be an individual dynamo. Bron is 21, has had 2 seasons in a row that are better than any season Kobe has had, and unlike Kobe, isn't nearly as hated by his fans, teammates, and coaches.I NEVER said Bron would average those #'s. I said if he had a Shaq/dominant center on his team, he easily could.PS- In 02-03, Kobe averaged 30PPG while taking 23 FGA, and Shaq took 18 FGA. He also had 5.6 APG. If that was Bron, he would have had 33PPG (he would have taken one more shot than he is now) and more assists.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>he was one of the main reasons why one of the greatest lakers teams of all time broke up.</div>Wrong. Buss said it himself: Shaq wasn't going to get $30 million, no matter what. Kobe said nothing about leaving until trade talks were stirring with Shaq. In fact, O'Neal admitted he asked for the trade, because he was told that $30 million a year wasn't on Buss' to-do list.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He also could have took a price cut like KG to bring in new talent, or could have went somehwere else with better chances, but he chose LA at a max contract, so he clearly doesn't have as much desire to win another championship as he does to be an individual dynamo.</div>Yeah, KG really took a big dip in his contract. He's making $18 million this season...and Kobe's at nearly $17 million.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Bron is 21, has had 2 seasons in a row that are better than any season Kobe has had, and unlike Kobe, isn't nearly as hated by his fans, teammates, and coaches.</div>That first sentence is simply ridiculous. LeBron hasn't even played in a post season game yet. You might as well change your perspective, and say that LeBron is better than Kobe right now...since you just said Bron's last two seasons are better than any one of Kobe's in his career.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real Deal @ Feb 16 2006, 06:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wrong. Buss said it himself: Shaq wasn't going to get $30 million, no matter what. Kobe said nothing about leaving until trade talks were stirring with Shaq. In fact, O'Neal admitted he asked for the trade, because he was told that $30 million a year wasn't on Buss' to-do list.</div>Shaq and Kobe were done for even before Shaq went to the Heat. They just couldn't work together. That was 1/2 Shaq and 1/2 Kobe's fault. But I was talking more about pissing off malone, and all of the players like Fish leaving because Phil couldn't coach Kobe, Kobe couldn't be bigger man and apologize to Shaq, etc... And after Shaq left, Kobe was looking into going to another team, mainly the Clippers, but he made some ridiculous requests (like they had to play a good part of their games in the other stadium). Ifv Kobe wanted a championship, he would have went to the team with Elton Brand, Corey Magette, etc...<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, KG really took a big dip in his contract. He's making $18 million this season...and Kobe's at nearly $17 million.</div>Compared to what the T-Wolves were willing to give him, he took a dip.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>That first sentence is simply ridiculous. LeBron hasn't even played in a post season game yet. You might as well change your perspective, and say that LeBron is better than Kobe right now...since you just said Bron's last two seasons are better than any one of Kobe's in his career.</div>I meant statistically, I am sorry I stated it wrong. I'll take 31/7/7 on 48% shooting and under 3.3 TO's per game to Kobe's 35/6/4 on 44% shooting and around 3.1 TO's per game. But stats don't make one player necassarily better than another, and Kobe's commitment to conditioning, defense, and being clutch is why he is the best swingman this year.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Shaq and Kobe were done for even before Shaq went to the Heat. They just couldn't work together. That was 1/2 Shaq and 1/2 Kobe's fault. But I was talking more about pissing off malone, and all of the players like Fish leaving because Phil couldn't coach Kobe, Kobe couldn't be bigger man and apologize to Shaq, etc...</div>Before Shaq left, that year, the Lakers were in the Finals. How were they done? They hated each other since 1996 (Shaq slamming a teenage Kobe against the lockers and slapping him), yet they won 3 straight.Pissing off Malone? Karl Malone was in no-man's land. You don't mess with a married woman. If I was big enough, I would've slapped the hell out of Karl for that.Fisher left because he wanted more money...that was a given. Check his contract in Golden State...Kobe and Fisher were best friends.Phil couldn't coach Kobe? If that's the reason he left, why is he back? Fact: Phil said he wasn't coming back to coach back in January of that season...regardless of where the Lakers were heading.Kobe couldn't be the bigger man and apologize to Shaq? Wow...where have you been? Since the issues, Shaq has been bashing Kobe and the entire city of Los Angeles until Martin Luther King Day...where Shaq realized he was the one who should finally shut up and put an end to it, since Kobe had said nothing back to him...ever.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And after Shaq left, Kobe was looking into going to another team, mainly the Clippers, but he made some ridiculous requests (like they had to play a good part of their games in the other stadium). Ifv Kobe wanted a championship, he would have went to the team with Elton Brand, Corey Magette, etc...</div>Read that last sentence. Kobe isn't like that...he wasn't going to leave the Lakers, no matter the situation. That's why his image is getting better as we speak, you're seeing Kobe back in commercials, and the media is starting to praise him. If Kobe wants a championship, he's going to give it to the Lakers...because that's Kobe Bryant.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real Deal @ Feb 16 2006, 07:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Before Shaq left, that year, the Lakers were in the Finals. How were they done? They hated each other since 1996 (Shaq slamming a teenage Kobe against the lockers and slapping him), yet they won 3 straight.Pissing off Malone? Karl Malone was in no-man's land. You don't mess with a married woman. If I was big enough, I would've slapped the hell out of Karl for that.Fisher left because he wanted more money...that was a given. Check his contract in Golden State...Kobe and Fisher were best friends.Phil couldn't coach Kobe? If that's the reason he left, why is he back? Fact: Phil said he wasn't coming back to coach back in January of that season...regardless of where the Lakers were heading.Kobe couldn't be the bigger man and apologize to Shaq? Wow...where have you been? Since the issues, Shaq has been bashing Kobe and the entire city of Los Angeles until Martin Luther King Day...where Shaq realized he was the one who should finally shut up and put an end to it, since Kobe had said nothing back to him...ever.</div>One thing out of all of this: Kobe did something worse than anything Shaq has done- Blurted out Shaq cheated on his wife, and from there, they couldn't even look at each other. before that, in the 3 peat, at least they were talking somewhat and could get along on the court. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Read that last sentence. Kobe isn't like that...he wasn't going to leave the Lakers, no matter the situation. That's why his image is getting better as we speak, you're seeing Kobe back in commercials, and the media is starting to praise him. If Kobe wants a championship, he's going to give it to the Lakers...because that's Kobe Bryant.</div>His image is getting better because of his play....has nothing to do with him sticking with the Lakers. Kobe stayed with the lakers because he wanted to prove he could lead a team....but he didn't want to go to a team where he could win more championships. That is why people call him selfish and names like that. He cares more about his individual goals than the ultimnate goal. MJ gave up individual success for 6 championships, Kobe never wanted to give up individual success. he always wanted to be Batman and Shaq be Robin. That is ultimately why they never got along.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='2270' date='Feb 16 2006, 06:24 PM']One thing out of all of this: Kobe did something worse than anything Shaq has done- Blurted out Shaq cheated on his wife, and from there, they couldn't even look at each other. before that, in the 3 peat, at least they were talking somewhat and could get along on the court.[/quote]You do know that nobody really knows what Kobe said in regards to Shaq, right? Plus, Shaq slapping a teenager (who was actually 17 and a minor, at the time) is much worse. He's selfish for not going to a better team? That doesn't make sense. That's why Jordan won 6 Finals MVP's, right? When did Jordan give up individual success? He was the man in Chicago, he never left Chicago, and he was winning scoring titles, MVP awards and rings throughout all those years...not to mention, Scottie Pippen was the greatest defensive forward of all time. ...and why they won three straight rings.
[quote name='Real Deal' post='2281' date='Feb 16 2006, 07:31 PM']You do know that nobody really knows what Kobe said in regards to Shaq, right? Plus, Shaq slapping a teenager (who was actually 17 and a minor, at the time) is much worse.[/quote]Sorry, slapping a teammate is not worse than telling to the world your husband cheated on you, especially when you have kids. Yes, it does make sense. if he cared about winning, he would have went to a better situation with the Clippers. Giving up individual success doesn't mean being a hermet. He used to score 35-37PPG for 2-3 years before Phil came in and persuaded him to become more of an all around player, and include Scottie more. That is when they started winning. Kobe never wanted to share the spotlight with Shaq. They won 3 rings off of pure talent, despite the team chemistry being attrocious. But when the rape case happenned, after that it got much uglier and unbearable.
You should go to jail for slapping a minor and throwing one up against the lockers. Saying something to the police isn't telling the world, by the way...and again, it was never really proven that he said that. So since he doesn't care about winning (which is an inaccurate statement), he stayed on the Lakers? Why didn't he go to the Bobcats? Hawks? The Lakers are still in the playoffs...and they were 6th seed in the first half of last season...he must care about winning. Jordan scored 35 PPG or more twice...once before Pippen, and once during Pippen's rookie season. After that, he dropped to 32 PPG, 33 PPG, and stayed at 30 or more.Funny thing is, Phil came in the 1989-1990 season, a year after Jordan dropped to 32 PPG. Phil didn't make Jordan into a lesser scorer, because he was still scoring at 30 or more...Pippen just kept getting better, and loving the triangle because it fit his game so well. Uglier and unbearable is a Finals appearance? I don't understand.
[quote name='Real Deal' post='2292' date='Feb 16 2006, 07:44 PM']You should go to jail for slapping a minor and throwing one up against the lockers. Saying something to the police isn't telling the world, by the way...and again, it was never really proven that he said that.[/quote]My dad used to slap me and throw me around. I am sure it happens more often than you'd think. It wa sonly publicized because it was Kobe Bryant. Do you personally know Kobe? Are you best friends with him? Judging by his actions, he obviously doesn't care about winning as much as his own success.And he didn't go to those other teams because they couldn't pay him, and he gets more exposure in LA. Lakers are in the playoffs because of a move by Phil to move Kobe out of playmaker to scorer. Last year, they wouldn't have made it as Rockets, Nuggets, and Grizz exploded to move into playoffs last year. And just ebcause they were winning because of a fairly talented squad doesn't mean Kobe wants to win. if he wanted to win a championship, he would have took a paycut, or went to a better team with more of a chance of winning (your Kobe could have been with Elton Brand right now, and they would have traded Magette for someone worthwile). Jordan started to learn Pippen was a better player, but it wasn't until Phil came in that he focused on passing and the win more than his points. They weren't even talking. If you read Phil's book, listen to what they said about each other in the media, or teammates, they all said their relationship was terrible. They are both such fantastic talents that they could get through the problem on the floor, but the Pistons exploited their chemistry problem in the Finals.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='2300' date='Feb 16 2006, 06:53 PM']My dad used to slap me and throw me around. I am sure it happens more often than you'd think. It wa sonly publicized because it was Kobe Bryant.[/quote]Shaq isn't Kobe's father, either. Judging by what actions? Is he tanking games like Vince in Toronto? Is he demanding a trade? Judging by his actions and the way the man is pushing himself, he wants to win. Jordan's best assists number (8.0) came the same year he scored 32 PPG from 35...which was one year before Phil came.Take a look at the stats...his assists dropped to 5-6 per game (from that 8.0) in 1990, when Phil started coaching. Ironically, that's when the Bulls won their first ring, and five others afterwards.Also, just to add to the convo...Pippen didn't start a single game the year Jordan averaged 35 PPG...the last time Jordan ever averaged that many points. I don't care if they were ignoring each other or being lovers, they won three rings. The Pistons shut down Kobe Bryant in the Finals, and Shaq couldn't do it alone. When you double the perimeter player and shut down the passing lane to his scoring teammate, you're screwed...and that's called exposing the triangle, not the "lack of chemistry" between two of the best players in the NBA.
I am done talking about Kobe. He is a fantastic nplayer and best swingman in the L, but I feel LeBron is right there with him. Withina few years, I think he will be better. That is my opinion, and I will stick to it until Bron retires.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Feb 16 2006, 07:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I am done talking about Kobe. He is a fantastic nplayer and best swingman in the L, but I feel LeBron is right there with him. Withina few years, I think he will be better. That is my opinion, and I will stick to it until Bron retires.</div>You may be calling it an opinion until he retires...
there is no comparison. lebron james is 20 times better than kobe was at this point of his career. lebron is 21 and already averaging over 30 points. not only that but he passes the ball. he rebounds. he plays pretty good D. kobe, scores doesn't pass, good D and descent rebounder. lebron is better tho. kobe just does everything himself and it gets him nowhere. lebron gets his team involved and wins games. lebron is the man.
