<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post"> I see a lot of people blaming the Lakers as a whole team, but it bothers me when they exclude Kobe, </div> Exactly. They make Kobe look like invincible man. He..... Never does anything wrong(on the court) Should never lose a game because....it's Kobe If they Win then it's because of Kobe, if they lose ? it's because of teammates.... We know Kobe is doing great on his own but making others better is also one of the skills that a leader should have.
Why is it, when the Lakers win the board is slow, when the Lakers lose, the entire Laker Hater Mob shows up??? Funny stuff!
I think a few Laker fans have missed the point, when they've been going on about teammates missing shots etc, but the point is exactly that. Confidence does wonders. Odom was such a good player in Miami because he loved to play with Wade and Jones, and hos confidence soared. Guys like Gooden and McInnis have so much confidence in playing with LeBron, that they too play at a higher level. I think the underlining question here is, do these guys have like playing with Kobe? Do they have confidence out there on court with Kobe Bryant? Because if the answer to those questions is no, then they're simply not going to play at a consistently high level. (Predicted response: "Oh, but Odom missed a lay-up, you should hit them even without confidence!")
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting BODY_COUNT:</div><div class="quote_post">Enjoy the rest of the "take over" season then, buddy.</div> He cant take over if his teammates dont even help by knocking down wide open shots... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Supersonic:</div><div class="quote_post"> I think a few Laker fans have missed the point, when they've been going on about teammates missing shots etc, but the point is exactly that. Confidence does wonders. Odom was such a good player in Miami because he loved to play with Wade and Jones, and hos confidence soared. Guys like Gooden and McInnis have so much confidence in playing with LeBron, that they too play at a higher level.</div> I dont think this has anything to do with Kobe, I think Odom has some hurt feelings over being traded. He signed a long term deal in Miami thinking he would be part of their future, we all saw how poorly he played when he was with the Clippers, drug and injury problems plagued him...Miami was a new start for him, now he is back in the town that brought him a lot of problems. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think the underlining question here is, do these guys have like playing with Kobe? Do they have confidence out there on court with Kobe Bryant? Because if the answer to those questions is no, then they're simply not going to play at a consistently high level.</div> I think Kobe doesnt have confidence in them, I dont know what player that would if they miss wide open shots all night, and this is a constant thing, this isnt the first time this year that this has happened. Its obvious there is a problem with team chemistry, but give this team time...they will start to click. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">(Predicted response: "Oh, but Odom missed a lay-up, you should hit them even without confidence!")</div> You know just as well as me, Odom should of made that layup
drm2dnk - how about going back and answering my questions that I asked you, instead of avoiding them? Nah, don't go look for them...I'll repost them right here. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Real Deal:</div><div class="quote_post">Now, tell me why "team game" is not in Kobe's vocabulary, when it's clear that he can't rack up any assists because he is the only guy hitting shots. Tell me why Kobe is trying to prove everyone wrong. I don't think Kobe really cares what everyone else thinks...including his critics, or he would've already given up on his team. Tell me what's funny...when the Lakers have a nice record in the West, and are losing to one of the best teams in the West...yet, the Lakers are still in the playoff race?</div> Supersonic - okay, let's assume that confidence is the problem. Let's assume that Odom and the others can't stand playing with Kobe on the court. Well...was that the case for the Sonics in their previous seasons? Last year, they finished 37-45. After starting off 8-2 in 2002, they finished at 40-42, and again out of the playoffs. But don't give me an excuse about Ray being hurt...because nobody wants to hear about Kobe's injury he's still suffering from. WadeDynasty - you continue to say that Kobe doesn't make his teammates better, yet Brian Cook and Jumaine Jones are having career seasons...and so is Mihm. Tell me...who's making others better over in Miami...or who's getting better? Eddie's playing terribly, Rasual has found his way back out of the starting five... the others who assume that Kobe never gets the blame - go to page three, post #57. In fact, I'll help you out. http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread...97&page=3&pp=20 If coming in here to attack Kobe Bryant is going to be a habit for every single game (since I've noticed that in EVERY game thread, a non-Laker fan has placed the blame on him only), then I'll be waiting for it. If your world revolves around Kobe and the Lakers, that's fine...but I love this team, more than I did last season actually, so whether we win 20 games or 50 games this year, I'm not letting up.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Real Deal:</div><div class="quote_post">WadeDynasty - you continue to say that Kobe doesn't make his teammates better, yet Brian Cook and Jumaine Jones are having career seasons...and so is Mihm.</div> Come on man....increase minutes = increased stats, and both Mihm and Cook are averaging career highs in mpg. Also, this is the first year where Mihm has really been a starter. For Cook, he's a sophmore, most players improve from their rookie to sophmore year (you can't really say that he's having a career year with only one other year to look at ). As for Jones, he is not actually having a career year. *Don't take this next part seriously* I guess you kind of can credit Kobe for Cook's improvment. if Kobe hadn't pissed off Karl Malone, then he'd back and Cook would be on the bench. Thanks Kobe. Seriously though, I won't say that Kobe has nothing to do with their improvement, because he MIGHT. But to ignore the fact that they have gotten increased minutes, and instead credit Kobe is exactly what us "Laker haters" are talking about. You are giving him credit where it's not necessarily deserved.
No point guard + no one to push the ball on the break=Odom being less effective Lamar was so good last year due to the fact he had a very good and quick guard who would push the ball any chance he got which made Odom life much easier. LO is at his best on the break beating the defense and converting fastbreak lay-ups. He isn't a bad half-court player but when he is allowed to run he is far more dangerous. Chucky Atkins is simply not that kind of player. Chucky has for the past 3/4 years been in a slowed down system and for defensive minded coaches. He is much older now and the chances of him changing his game is unlikely, Laker fans have been way too harsh on Chucky..calling him trash and a waste of space which isn't fair. He should not be a starting point guard, he is best used as an energy boost off the bench and a guy who can hit some threes. Kind of like Mike James was last year and nothing more.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">Come on man....increase minutes = increased stats, and both Mihm and Cook are averaging career highs in mpg. Also, this is the first year where Mihm has really been a starter. For Cook, he's a sophmore, most players improve from their rookie to sophmore year (you can't really say that he's having a career year with only one other year to look at ). As for Jones, he is not actually having a career year. *Don't take this next part seriously* I guess you kind of can credit Kobe for Cook's improvment. if Kobe hadn't pissed off Karl Malone, then he'd back and Cook would be on the bench. Thanks Kobe. Seriously though, I won't say that Kobe has nothing to do with their improvement, because he MIGHT. But to ignore the fact that they have gotten increased minutes, and instead credit Kobe is exactly what us "Laker haters" are talking about. You are giving him credit where it's not necessarily deserved.</div> Okay, fair enough. What you're saying is that Brian Cook, for example, has higher numbers because he's playing more minutes. We both know that it works two ways. I coach the freshman high school team...and I know that when I see someone working hard and playing better than they did in their previous season, I'm going to play them more. So...if they are showing signs of improvement, they get more minutes. Now, Brian Cook is playing only a half a quarter more than he did last season. However, other than his stats being higher (which, like you said, is natural), he's getting open...he's drawing fouls, getting his feet planted for the charge, showing more emotion, getting position under the glass much better than he did last season, etc. I've said it numerous times...stats don't tell the story when it comes to who's doing what. Sometimes they can, in a few games, but Caron's excellent offensive games are completely overshadowing some of his worse defensive performances of the year...but they don't record stats for how many times you get burned on defense, or how many times you can't find your man. Point is, Cook is good enough to play more than 10 minutes. Last season, he wasn't worth it. In fact, before the preseason, I predicted that he would more than likely see time on the IR...but he shocked everyone by playing better and wanting the ball in his hands. If we were to blame improvement on how many minutes a player is given out on the court, I guess we can say the same for BJ Armstrong, who MJ turned into an All-Star guard.
Good argument. Curious, does cook play sf or does he play pf when Odom is out? My guess would be sf because he is shooting 35% 3s, but I really dont know. Anyway, if he is playing pf I would give some credit to last year's pf for improving Cook before I gave credit to Kobe. After all: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">he's getting open...he's drawing fouls, getting his feet planted for the charge, showing more emotion, getting position under the glass</div> All things that last year's starting pf was very good at.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">Good argument. Curious, does cook play sf or does he play pf when Odom is out? My guess would be sf because he is shooting 35% 3s, but I really dont know. Anyway, if he is playing pf I would give some credit to last year's pf for improving Cook before I gave credit to Kobe. After all: All things that last year's starting pf was very good at.</div> I don't think Cook even knows what position he's playing. Sometimes he comes in for Mihm, sometimes he's in at PF, and sometimes he's at the three. However, last year's PF was pretty much Slava and Cook, if you remember right. I don't even think Malone would have enough time to work with Cook...considering he only played half the season. Plus, Cook was pretty bad even at the end of last season. He started showing signs of improvement during training camp after hitting a game-winner in a scrimmage, and Kobe had a talk with him and actually took him fishing and all of this other stuff...came out during preseason and did surprisingly well, and now...at least when I watch him...I'm not beating up on the couch when he's playing (like I was last year).
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Real Deal:</div><div class="quote_post">WadeDynasty - you continue to say that Kobe doesn't make his teammates better, yet Brian Cook and Jumaine Jones are having career seasons...and so is Mihm. Tell me...who's making others better over in Miami...or who's getting better? Eddie's playing terribly, Rasual has found his way back out of the starting five... </div> Then, what are you complaining out? You got so many players who are having career seasons then why are you blaming them? Cuz they shot poorly in a game against a top team like the Supersonics? Cuz they are not hitting shots that win the game? Since when Kobe isn't the man when taking shots that seal the victory? If you're gonna blame his teammates for shooting poorly, then blame Kobe too when he takes 30 shots and only make 10 of 'em. I haven't seen any Lakers fan who blames kobe for that. All the Lakers fans say is "Kobe can't do it all" - yet he still tries to do it all. "Teammates were shooting poorly" - and there are, according to real, 3 players that are having career season. Career season = poor shooting?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting WadeDynasty:</div><div class="quote_post">Then, what are you complaining out? You got so many players who are having career seasons then why are you blaming them? Cuz they shot poorly in a game against a top team like the Supersonics? Then blame Kobe too when he takes 30 shots and only make 10 of 'em.</div> Go check the stats of last night's game against the Sonics. Kobe shot pretty well. Nevermind, you won't check...Kobe shot 12-23 (over 50%), with 9 boards and 5 assists. Low assists? I'd think so, since the rest of the team shot only 20-58 (which is 34%). Who's fault? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting WadeDynasty:</div><div class="quote_post">I haven't seen any Lakers fan who blames kobe for that. All the Lakers fans say is "Kobe can't do it all" - yet he still tries to do it all. "Teammates were shooting poorly" - and there are, according to real, 3 players that are having career season. Career season = poor shooting? </div> Okay, once again...here you go. http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28766 <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Real Deal:</div><div class="quote_post">And Kobe Bryant... Scoring - shoot better. That's all I ask. Once you get your shot back, start taking over the game in the 3rd quarter and early 4th...and then go back to passing and making plays (that is, if we don't have a PG yet). If needed, start the engines back up late in the fourth if we're in a close game...but first, find your shot.</div> http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28983 <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Kobe 8 Ball:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe once again is struggling shooting, if it wasnt for Jumaine Jones this game wouldnt even be close right now IMO. I hope Jumaine can keep up the hot hand in the 2nd half. I am waiting for Odom, Caron, or Kobe to get hot or we will not win this game because the Magic are just hitting all their shots.</div> http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread...15&page=2&pp=20 <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Billa_Bong:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe had a monster game but 32 shots is way to many, slot selection he needs to work on it, I know he gets it with nothing left but he did take some shots which were just stupid, I don't know if he was trying cuz he was on fire or something.</div>
I dunno....for me, maybe I'm speaking a bit TOO soon, but this Laker team isn't a playoff team right now. As far as I'm concerned our "12-9" record, which is tied for 7th best in the Western Conference is a fluke. We don't rise up to the challenge of playing top West opponents, we don't play with urgency on some given nights, we let teams stomp all over us, and Kobe in a postgame interview last night says "it was about experience? And once we see them again, it'll be a different scenario?" What the heck? Kobe right now can't even trust his own teammates to pick up the slack for him, it wouldn't matter if Kobe goes 6/20 from the field every night, he wouldn't be able to trust our four recycled individuals that came from a landfill. I'm reading things about confidence. Points well taken. Why isn't Lamar Odom benefiting from this Laker offense? Because Kobe being our leader doesn't give him the benefit of a doubt to become a legitimate 2nd scorer. Odom shined in Miami because he had players willing to take pressure off of themselves, take a backseat some nights, and allow others to put forth their best contributions. With Kobe however, it's my way or the highway, and I've been hearing reports that Odom wants out because of this ridiculous attitude. I love my Lakers for life, but this current edition of the team is worthless, and I HOPE we don't get exposed on national TV tomorrow night against our rivals for this atrocious type of basketball.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Real Deal:</div><div class="quote_post">Go check the stats of last night's game against the Sonics. Kobe shot pretty well. Nevermind, you won't check...Kobe shot 12-23 (over 50%), with 9 boards and 5 assists. Low assists? I'd think so, since the rest of the team shot only 20-58 (which is 34%). Who's fault? Okay, once again...here you go. http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28766 http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28983 http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread...15&page=2&pp=20</div> Good job recognizing the truth. You guys know who to blame. That's good. Yeah Kobe played good, i saw the game. But bid deal, you lost to the top west team. Even if the Lakers shot better, I think the Supersonics would still have prevailed.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting WadeDynasty:</div><div class="quote_post">Good job recognizing the truth. You guys know who to blame. That's good. Yeah Kobe played good, i saw the game. But bid deal, you lost to the top west team. Even if the Lakers shot better, I think the Supersonics would still have prevailed.</div> What team doesn't lose to the top West team? The Spurs have lost both games against the Sonics...but, oh..."big deal" right?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting WadeDynasty:</div><div class="quote_post">Good job recognizing the truth. You guys know who to blame. That's good. Yeah Kobe played good, i saw the game. But bid deal, you lost to the top west team. Even if the Lakers shot better, I think the Supersonics would still have prevailed.</div> I think a main reason he posted the Kobe Bryant stats is, because from what I have been reading in this thread you where saying how you never hear Laker fans blame Kobe for a lose and always say he cant do it all or that his teammates shot poor from the field. Well truth of the matter is you can not blame Kobe for this lose. He hit a majority of his shots which where taken when his shooting percentage was the main reason why he was being critisized for his shots. What the stats that Real Deal posted show that the blame of this game falls on the team because it is a team game, and this includes Kobe, but as a team they had a horrible shooting night. I will admit that when kobe shoots horrible and Odom is 5-9 from the field the first person I would look at is Kobe Bryant to place the blame on, because he did not perform well like what his 136 million dollar contract states, but if they lose and he performs well like he did over 50% shooting you can not blame him souly for the lose because he did his best to perform up to his ability. When the other team shoots 50% from the floor and the Lakers shoot 39 % form the floor you can look a that and say over all bad team effort, but then you can not look at Kobe who was 12-23 from the flor 8-10 from the line and blame this lose on him. I think the Sonics just plain out played the Lakers this game. They had much better ball movement then the Lakers finishing with a total of 28 team assists while the Lakers had only 12 total team assists, and Kobe also led the team in assists this game. Neither team played a really sloppy game, but the lakers really failed to force turnovers and get fast break points the Sonics only had 9 turnovers they did a very good job of holding on to the ball the lakers had 13 turnovers not bad, but not great 4 more turnovers. This was Kobe's main struggle of the ngith he lead the team with 4 turnovers along with Lamar Odon when our top two scoring options combine for 8 turnovers 1 less than the entire Seattle team we have problems.
The fact of the matter is...Kobe had a great performance. You can't ask for much more than that. With that said, it should also be stated that there's not a single player ever (now or in the past) that could win rings by themselves. It's a team effort, no matter who you are. If Kobe performs great and the rest of the Lakers play badly, the Lakers will more than likely lose. Same with the Spurs, same with the 1996 Chicago Bulls.
i just dont understand why players like odom and caron dont step up. its like they are watching in amazement everytime kobe plays.
The Lakers can compete with anyone in the NBA. The Lakers lost a close one to Sac, again a close one to the Suns. They beat Orlando a top ranked team in the East and have shown signs of briliance. The team needs more time to gel, Rudy T needs to figure out a solid rotation, and Odom needs to find his step. There really is not much too it. The Lakers are a "NEW TEAM". Hardly anyone has played together longer than the Pre-Season and the few games we've had thus far. Its really up to them to bring their game, and for Kobe to find a way to get him teammates more involved.
