CB4AllStar got you sickness. He really showed his NBA knowledge and he really made some great points and proved your points wrong. Lamar is a good player and a very solid offensive player and the Los Angeles Lakers are not a terrible defensive team. They aren't excellent, but they're far from terrible.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 6 2006, 12:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Still RJ. Odom will never become a first option. RJ has shown when players are hurt and team is absolute garbage that he can get it done and lead a team (before VC arrived in 2004 when Kidd was hurt). He is a better scorer, he is far more consistent, and he is the much better defender.</div>He lead miami to the playoffs during 03-04 season, it wasn't wade...........dwyane was discovered for his play in the playoffs that year, but it was lamar who brought them in the playoffs, remember that year when they had a horrible start and then got hot late in the season. It was odom who was the main option til dwyane showed his stuff in the playoffs with all his game winning shots, so yes lamar can be a first option.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Sep 6 2006, 12:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He lead miami to the playoffs during 03-04 season, it wasn't wade...........dwyane was discovered for his play in the playoffs that year, but it was lamar who brought them in the playoffs, remember that year when they had a horrible start and then got hot late in the season. It was odom who was the main option til dwyane showed his stuff in the playoffs with all his game winning shots, so yes lamar can be a first option.</div>I felt that Eddie Jones was the leader of that team, but truthfully there was no first option on that team. Wade, Jones and odom were all very close in scoring, Eddie was the best defender of the 3, and he was alos the oldest and had most experience with winning, so I'd say Eddie Jones was ultimately the leader and first option of that team with scoring and leading.As for the playoffs it was all Wade. 2 GW's in 1st round with like 18PPG, and in 2nd round had 23PPG.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 6 2006, 01:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I felt that Eddie Jones was the leader of that team, but truthfully there was no first option on that team. Wade, Jones and odom were all very close in scoring, Eddie was the best defender of the 3, and he was alos the oldest and had most experience with winning, so I'd say Eddie Jones was ultimately the leader and first option of that team with scoring and leading.As for the playoffs it was all Wade. 2 GW's in 1st round with like 18PPG, and in 2nd round had 23PPG.</div>We don't look at the age to determine who's the leader on a team, lamar was the catalyst on that offense..........most of the plays went through him, they look for mismatches. He either plays from the top when he's defended by a bigger player or he post up against smaller defender........... he's the one who penetrates, post up players and makes all the passes.........eddie jones and wade benefited from those.
Richard's the better scorer simply because he's scoring numbers say so. Lamar isn't a scorer, he does other things which in my mind make him more valuable. Lamar's a better rebounder and destroys jefferson in the passing department. Lamar makes those around him better, it's actually true in this situation.I see Lamar as doing more things on the court then RJ whilst being more valuable. I pick Lamar.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Sep 6 2006, 02:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>We don't look at the age to determine who's the leader on a team, lamar was the catalyst on that offense..........most of the plays went through him, they look for mismatches. He either plays from the top when he's defended by a bigger player or he post up against smaller defender........... he's the one who penetrates, post up players and makes all the passes.........eddie jones and wade benefited from those.</div>Going by that logic then Lamar is the leader of the Lakers. He isn't. Yes, he was the best player talent wise, but had never been near a winning team, never knew how to take over or hit clutch shots, and didn't have the experience. Eddie Jones and Wade both gave a little bit of each factor to make the trio quite equal. But I feel that Eddie Jones was more of a leader emotionally and off the court, which is why I say he was ultimately the most important player of that team and leader. But by the end of the season, even before the playoffs, Wade clearly showed he was the man on the team.Melo- That is an interesting statement, about RJ being more valuable but you think Lamar is the better player. Personally I think if Lamar fixed the inconsistency, clutch ability, leadership, and defense he could be one of the top players in the NBA. But without those things he is just a very good second option who takes a ton of pressure off the PG/playmakers as he is very good at setting up offenses and passing the ball.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 6 2006, 03:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Going by that logic then Lamar is the leader of the Lakers. He isn't. Yes, he was the best player talent wise, but had never been near a winning team, never knew how to take over or hit clutch shots, and didn't have the experience. Eddie Jones and Wade both gave a little bit of each factor to make the trio quite equal. But I feel that Eddie Jones was more of a leader emotionally and off the court, which is why I say he was ultimately the most important player of that team and leader. But by the end of the season, even before the playoffs, Wade clearly showed he was the man on the team.</div> what are u talking about, this is where the twisting of words come in..........listen u think rj is a better player fine.........i showed u how lamar could be more valuable to your team, if u don't buy it then what can i do. the question was who would u rather have between the two, how did it reach to a point where lamar becomes the leader of the lakers, i never said that. RJ didn't carry a team it was kidd and later on vince who carried that team, carrying a team means that putting a team on your back and actually achieving something................kobe carried the lakers, but can't you say the same thing to joe johnson , no coz he didn't bring atlanta anywhere.wade took over in the playoffs but it was lamar odom who brought the heat in the playoffs that year not eddie not wade what can't u understand.......... of course they can't make it without those two but it was odom's play, he was the primary option!!!!! you said eddie jones was the leader coz he was the oldest of them three, look at your earlier post that's why i replied you don't look at the age to determine who becomes the leader.Another good example on how you twist other members post, melo never said that rj is more valuable............he said rj is a better scorer not more valuable.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Sep 6 2006, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'> what are u talking about, this is where the twisting of words come in..........listen u think rj is a better player fine.........i showed u how lamar could be more valuable to your team, if u don't buy it then what can i do. the question was who would u rather have between the two, how did it reach to a point where lamar becomes the leader of the lakers, i never said that. RJ didn't carry a team it was kidd and later on vince who carried that team, carrying a team means that putting a team on your back and actually achieving something................kobe carried the lakers, but can't you say the same thing to joe johnson , no coz he didn't bring atlanta anywhere.wade took over in the playoffs but it was lamar odom who brought the heat in the playoffs that year not eddie not wade what can't u understand.......... of course they can't make it without those two but it was odom's play, he was the primary option!!!!! you said eddie jones was the leader coz he was the oldest of them three, look at your earlier post that's why i replied you don't look at the age to determine who becomes the leader.Another good example on how you twist other members post, melo never said that rj is more valuable............he said rj is a better scorer not more valuable.</div>Never twisted any words. You said Lamar was the leader, the bacatalyst, of the Heat team because he was a mismatch for almost everyone and setup the offense while having a wide variety in his arsenal. If that was what made a leader than he would also be the leader of the Lakers as he is the playmaker on that team, is always a huge mismatch, and benefits Kobe and take off an enormous amount of pressure off him. He is still not consistent, still not a strong or vocal leader, still has never succeeded as being the man, still not a very good defender, stillc an't take over games, etc.... Talent wise he was the ebst player on the Heat (until end of season), but it was really an equal partnership between Lamar/Eddie/Wade by the end of the season due to all of those factors.RJ carried the Nets when Kidd was hurt at beginning of '04-'05 and before the VC trade happenned. He held an absolutely PATHETIC team to fairly reasonable level before VC came and Kidd got healthy. He averaged 22PPG, 7RPG and 4APG. Those are all star SF numbers. He didn't have a chance to carry that absolutely pathetic team anywhere as it was only for a month or so, but he showed me more than anything Odom showed me on the Clips or Lakers when Kobe was out.Again, Lamar was most talented and had overall the best stats (although Wade, despite missing 21 games, starting only 56, and being a rookie he averaged numbers almost as good as Lamar's), but because of his lack-luster past with winning and leadership, because he was still inconsistent, because he couldn't carry that team or take over, I cannot call him leader. Eddie Jones filled all of those voids while racking up more PPG, 4RPG and 3APG. And then you had Wade who by the end of the season was up past his average regular season numbers, and he showed his brilliance in playoffs. I just can't call Lamar a leader or a player that can be "the man" on a team, whereas I feel RJ can be that player as he showed flashes of it before, and night in and night out he gives performances that give me that belief. Is Lamar more talented and a mismatch nightmare? Of course. he is the bette rpasser, rebounder, and is a very unqiue body. But RJ is better scorer and defender, has more fight in him, is always consistent, and has the abilities and willingness to lead and take over and be the man. That is my main reason for choosing RJ over Odom.
I would take Lamar. He is a more well rounder player. Lamar is a good defender. He can guard all five positions. I'm not soley basing that on stats, but he does have a career average of 1 bpg and 1 spg. He is a much better passer and rebounder. And I would not feel very confident with Jefferson as my teams number one option. Lamar is also a better 3pt shooter than Jefferson. All in all Odom can do more things. I take Odom.
Are you saying that Lamar Odom is a first option. He will never be a first option because he is very inconsistent.One night he will put up 20 points, the next he will give you 7.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 7 2006, 05:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Going by that logic then Lamar is the leader of the Lakers. He isn't. Yes, he was the best player talent wise, but had never been near a winning team, never knew how to take over or hit clutch shots, and didn't have the experience. Eddie Jones and Wade both gave a little bit of each factor to make the trio quite equal. But I feel that Eddie Jones was more of a leader emotionally and off the court, which is why I say he was ultimately the most important player of that team and leader. But by the end of the season, even before the playoffs, Wade clearly showed he was the man on the team.Melo- That is an interesting statement, about RJ being more valuable but you think Lamar is the better player. Personally I think if Lamar fixed the inconsistency, clutch ability, leadership, and defense he could be one of the top players in the NBA. But without those things he is just a very good second option who takes a ton of pressure off the PG/playmakers as he is very good at setting up offenses and passing the ball.</div>Worded it incorrectly, lamar is definintely more valuable then RJ. If i'm starting a franchise give me RJ simply because he has the mindset to lead consistently.Lamar? I'd take him in any other situation.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Sep 6 2006, 05:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Worded it incorrectly, lamar is definintely more valuable then RJ. If i'm starting a franchise give me RJ simply because he has the mindset to lead consistently.Lamar? I'd take him in any other situation.</div>Oh, I am sorry I just looked back and I read it wrong. But I don't understand, if you are starting a franchise with RJ over Lamar how is Lamar more valuable? How can someone so inconsistent, and probably can never be the leader and truly main option be better than a player with those traits?
Can you see RJ being the best player on a championship team ??? coz i don't....... ok let's say he's a better leader, but how far do you think is he capable of leading a team. No disrespect, just like michael redd...........he's been carrrying the bucks for a few years now, but i don't see them going all they way with him as their best player.How far do you think can Rj lead a team 1st rd, 2nd rd. is that good enough...........you can surround him with good talent but is he the kind of player that will give you a championship as your leader. Iverson can't do it, even kidd and carter can't do it with rj on their side.My point is rj is more suited as a 2nd or 3rd option, can he lead a team ??? maybe but how far do you think will that team go ??? Now my other question, who would you rather have on your team as your second option him or lamar ???NOTE: If i'm building a team there is no way that i'm picking rj or lamar as my main guy , but i however will pick lamar over rj to be my 2nd best player any day of the week.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Sep 7 2006, 12:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Can you see RJ being the best player on a championship team ??? ok let's say he's a better leader, but how far do you think is he capable of leading a team. No disrespect, just like michael redd...........he's been carrrying the bucks for a few years now, but i don't see them going all they way with him as their best player.How far do you think can Rj lead a team 1st rd, 2nd rd. is that good enough...........you can surround him with good talent but is he the kind of player that will give you a championship. Iverson can't do it, even kidd and carter can't do it with rj on their side.My point is rj is more suited as a 2nd or 3rd option, can he lead a team ??? maybe but how far do you think that team will go ??? Now my other question, who would you rather have on your team as your second option him or lamar ???</div>I don't know if he could be a top leader in the league, as the only time he has been given the oppertunity was for a month on one of the worst teams in recent memory. But he has all the attributes-Great scorer that is versatile, good defender, great rebounders, good leader, very consistent, and not selfish but he knows when he has to get the job done. I feel if he was first option on a team he could do the job well. Could he carry a team to the playoffs by himself with not much talent or average 30PPG? Doubtful, but I feel he could be a leader and lead a team like Charolette to the playoffs as long as he isn't expected to gets 30PPG and be a top 5 player in the league.As for who I'd rather want as a second option, depends totally on the team they would be placed on and their roles. Lamar has failed when he is not expected to be playmaker and expected to be more of a scorer. Just look at his first year with Lakers when Kobe was playmaker. But the next year when Phil came in and put Lamar as playmaker and Kobe as pure scorer, it was almost a perfect spot for him. All the pressure lifted off him to score a ton, and he got to show off his great passing ability. But on a team with an already solid PG/playmaker, he really isn't a good fit. RJ, on the other hand, is a great scorer and willingly takes a back seat to other scorers. He could play 2nd option to just about anyone in the league because of that. His best fit would be playing the Caron Butler/Antwan Jamison role next to Gilbert Arenas.
exactly my point, rj can lead a team to a certain extent but it won't be good enough, why would you pick a player to be your leader if he is not capable of giving you a title.Maybe lamar is too inconsistent to be the no. 1 option, but i think without any pressure on him being a leader............he would be a better 2nd option than RJ on any team because of all the match up problems he can cause. As a second option he can attract a second defender which rj is not worthy of, when was the last time you saw rj getting doubled team.If you have your top 2 guys attracting double team, don't you think you have a better chance of winning ???
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Sep 7 2006, 01:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>exactly my point, rj can lead a team to a certain extent but it won't be good enough, why would you pick a player to be your leader if he is not capable of giving you a title.Maybe lamar is too inconsistent to be the no. 1 option, but i think without any pressure on him being a leader............he would be a better 2nd option than RJ on any team because of all the match up problems he can cause. As a second option he can attract a second defender which rj is not worthy of, when was the last time you saw rj getting doubled team.If you have your top 2 guys attracting double team, don't you think you have a better chance of winning ???</div>Do you know how rare a talent it is to lead a team to a championship being the main guy? I can think of maybe 4 players in the whole league that can do it: AI, Kobe, Wade and Duncan. But for a team like say the Bobcats who don't have the money or firepower to get a player like Kobe or T-Mac, RJ would be a great leader and could get team further than a 2nd option like Lamar could. 20-24PPG, 7RPG, 4AP and a good FG %, good defense, good leadership, and a consistent threat every night and I wouldn't mind building a team to make a dent in the playoffs around him. if I wanted a championship I would need more firepower than just RJ, though, but as I said, it is very rare a player is clearly #1 on his team and wins a championship.RJ is also a matchup problem. He can post up smaller SG/SF, and he is very athletic and can get to the rim on others. At 6'7", 225 he has the body to cause those matchup problems. And unlike Lamar he almost always takes advantage.RJ doesn't get double teamed right now because of Kidd. Even VC rarely gets doubled with Kidd in the game. But RJ is certainly worthy of attracting double teams....20/7/4 on nearly 50% shooting is certainly worthy of that.
but we are not talking about other teams situtation though, that wasn't part of the question. i don't think rj is good enough to attract double teams no am not buying that, you can say that he's more consistent and i'll agree with you on that but to say that rj would require a double NO.They don't double him coz they don't have to, why would they double a player if they don't think it's necessary.............lamar got kobe but phoenix keeps doubling him, why coz if they don't odom would avg 30 on them. It doesn't matter who your're playing with if you create the mismatch there's no choice for the other team but to double you.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakersfoelyfe @ Sep 7 2006, 01:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>but we are not talking about other teams situtation though, that wasn't part of the question. i don't think rj is good enough to attract double teams no am not buying that, you can say that he's more consistent and i'll agree with you on that but to say that rj would require a double NO.They don't double him coz they don't have to, why would they double a player if they don't think it's necessary.............lamar got kobe but phoenix keeps doubling him, why coz if they don't odom would avg 30 on them. It doesn't matter who your're playing with if you create the mismatch there's no choice for the other team but to double you if they have to.</div>But it HAS to be part of the answer, as these 2 players are extremely different and they play different roles for their teams. And yes, if RJ was main scorer on a team he would require a double team. He has the inside and outside shot working, shoots it at a great percentage, and is also an underrated passer. He is clutch, and in playoffs averaged 23PPG on over 50% shooting. I honestly can't see how you would say he doesn't deserve a double team. That is why the 3 headed monster of the Nets works, they got the best SG/SF combo in the league with one of the 3 best PG's in the league, and if you double any one of them the other will kill you. It is a proven equation. VC rarely gets doubled....you think that's because he's not worthy? Hell no! It's because if you double one you have to deal with the other 2 killing you, and teams aren't willing to do that. Lamar would never average 30 on anyone. He has never averaged more than 17PPG, and is not a consistent threat who can take over a game. RJ is that kind of player.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 7 2006, 10:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Oh, I am sorry I just looked back and I read it wrong. But I don't understand, if you are starting a franchise with RJ over Lamar how is Lamar more valuable? How can someone so inconsistent, and probably can never be the leader and truly main option be better than a player with those traits?</div>Because the lakers don't sniff the playoffs without odom whilst the nets do without rj. Believe me, i've seen how valuable lamar is. One injury to lamar which causes him to miss 20-30 games and it's over.
