Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! [quote name='Jon_Vilma' post='42952' date='Apr 24 2006, 11:19 AM'][quote name='GotSkillz52' post='42944' date='Apr 24 2006, 05:50 AM'][quote name='Jon_Vilma' post='42938' date='Apr 24 2006, 12:45 AM'][quote name='GotSkillz52' post='42927' date='Apr 23 2006, 09:08 PM'][quote name='Jon_Vilma' post='42905' date='Apr 23 2006, 11:20 PM'][quote name='European-Star' post='42896' date='Apr 23 2006, 07:56 PM']i love wilt.. i will alawyas love wilt,, but wilt.. i mean come on dude, had no competition.. it was like lebron in highschool.. size wise..[/quote]There were other tall black (racist much?) men in the league at the time. He was just naturally dominant. If he had today's training, he would dominate just as much.And as for the "rings" argument, his lack of rings was due to lack of FA. He never had a number 2 on the team, it was always just him.[/quote]Is Jerry West not a good enough number 2 for Wilt? How about Chet the Jet Walker and Hal Greer? Billy Cunningham also was on Wilts Team.[/quote]None compare to the rosters built in the late 60's.And Wilt didn't have Jerry West until he was at the end of his career, and they won a ring together.[/quote]Jerry West, Chet, Hal Greer, and Billy are top 50 players of all time. You cant get any better than that.All Russell ever had was Bob Cousy and Havlicek. Will had better talent than Bill and he still won more rings. Big Guys like this dont need talent. They provide players with open shots and they make stars out of regular players like Shaq did with Penny, Kobe, and Wade. They were very good without him but theyre better with him.[/quote]Kobe, who will be considered a top 5 player of all time, and the likely MVP this year is just "very good" lol.Face it, Wilt was dominant, and if HE had been on the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, they would have won the Cmapionship 11 or 12 years in a row, instead of 8. The Celtics were just stacked with talent, they had could be all-stars on their bench, and they played like a team on top of it. You can't blame Wilt for having the most dominant team in NBA history in the league at the same time as him.[/quote]Likely MVP? Wade is a mvp contender but not going to be it. Kobe, Lebron, Elton, Dirk, Nash, and maybe even Billups I consider to be closer to the mvp to Wade. Kobe is a top 5 player and thats why i called him very good. I understand why you would get mad if i said good but I added very. That means great. What made that team dominant was Bill Russell. It was guard-oriented and Russell just added the final piece to a great team. Wilt had plenty of Talent to go around including 4 top 50 players. LiKE i said you cant get better than 4 top 50. They even averaged the same amount of numbers except for points.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! [quote name='GotSkillz52' post='42953' date='Apr 24 2006, 08:38 AM'][quote name='Jon_Vilma' post='42952' date='Apr 24 2006, 11:19 AM'][quote name='GotSkillz52' post='42944' date='Apr 24 2006, 05:50 AM'][quote name='Jon_Vilma' post='42938' date='Apr 24 2006, 12:45 AM'][quote name='GotSkillz52' post='42927' date='Apr 23 2006, 09:08 PM'][quote name='Jon_Vilma' post='42905' date='Apr 23 2006, 11:20 PM'][quote name='European-Star' post='42896' date='Apr 23 2006, 07:56 PM']i love wilt.. i will alawyas love wilt,, but wilt.. i mean come on dude, had no competition.. it was like lebron in highschool.. size wise..[/quote]There were other tall black (racist much?) men in the league at the time. He was just naturally dominant. If he had today's training, he would dominate just as much.And as for the "rings" argument, his lack of rings was due to lack of FA. He never had a number 2 on the team, it was always just him.[/quote]Is Jerry West not a good enough number 2 for Wilt? How about Chet the Jet Walker and Hal Greer? Billy Cunningham also was on Wilts Team.[/quote]None compare to the rosters built in the late 60's.And Wilt didn't have Jerry West until he was at the end of his career, and they won a ring together.[/quote]Jerry West, Chet, Hal Greer, and Billy are top 50 players of all time. You cant get any better than that.All Russell ever had was Bob Cousy and Havlicek. Will had better talent than Bill and he still won more rings. Big Guys like this dont need talent. They provide players with open shots and they make stars out of regular players like Shaq did with Penny, Kobe, and Wade. They were very good without him but theyre better with him.[/quote]Kobe, who will be considered a top 5 player of all time, and the likely MVP this year is just "very good" lol.Face it, Wilt was dominant, and if HE had been on the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, they would have won the Cmapionship 11 or 12 years in a row, instead of 8. The Celtics were just stacked with talent, they had could be all-stars on their bench, and they played like a team on top of it. You can't blame Wilt for having the most dominant team in NBA history in the league at the same time as him.[/quote]Likely MVP? Wade is a mvp contender but not going to be it. Kobe, Lebron, Elton, Dirk, Nash, and maybe even Billups I consider to be closer to the mvp to Wade. Kobe is a top 5 player and thats why i called him very good. I understand why you would get mad if i said good but I added very. That means great. What made that team dominant was Bill Russell. It was guard-oriented and Russell just added the final piece to a great team. Wilt had plenty of Talent to go around including 4 top 50 players. LiKE i said you cant get better than 4 top 50. They even averaged the same amount of numbers except for points.[/quote]I was talking about Kobe being the likely MVP this year.And you don't seem to grasp just how good the Celtics were. It's like having Nash, Kobe, Marion, KG, and Ming all on the same team, with players like Elton Brand on the bench. Without FA it was insanity.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! Once again Wilt played with 4 top 50 players of all time. Can you name the players on that spectactular Celtic team with Russell? You talk about advantages Wilt was 55 pounds heavier and like 3 inches taller.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! #1 You make it sound like he played with 4 top 50s at the same time.#2 Hal Greer is no longer top 50 greatest all time. That list was made in 96. Chet Walker was never a top 50 greatest player of all time. Only Cunningham and West were legit top 50 players.#3 His scoring dipped from 61-67 every year. When he played with Jerry West, it was close to the end of his career. He didn't score much. Al lhe did was stand there and get a rebound.#4 Shaq's scoring has been dipping every year too but still averages what 26 12 2.5? Shaq had to play with bonafide superstars. Penny of the past was one of the greatest. Kobe is a top 5-10 even though he thinks he is a team. Wade will be a top 50 all time. If you consider Walt the greatest, Shaq has to be a close 2nd.Wilt is a better player than Shaq but he was before his time, making his stats look amazing. He's still one of the top 5 players with Michael Jordan, Dr. J, Pistol Pete, and Kareem.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GotSkillz52 @ Apr 24 2006, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Once again Wilt played with 4 top 50 players of all time. Can you name the players on that spectactular Celtic team with Russell? You talk about advantages Wilt was 55 pounds heavier and like 3 inches taller.</div>In every single year of his career that he won a ring, he had at least 3 of the following on his team:Sam Jones, HOFerK.C. Jones, HOFerBill Sharman, HOFerFrank Ramsey, HOFerTom Heinsohn, HOFerJohn Havlicek, HOFerBailey Howell, HOFerClyde Lovellette, HOFerArnie Risen, HOFerBob Cousy, HOFerAndy Phillip, HOFerWorking with 11 Hall of Famers, the bare minimum of 3 at a time, I'm sure had nothing to do with the Celtics success.Including Bill Russell, the Celtics had 4 future Hall of Famers on the floor every single year they won a championship from 1957-1969. And this doesn't include the players who were simply multi-year All-Stars.Put 4 future Hall of Famers on the floor at the same time, and you're going to win a championship. Lets list any 4 future hall of famers in the NBA right now, all playing on the same court with some multi-year all stars in that 5 spot and on the bench.... and they'll dominate.So lets see.C Ben WallacePF Tim DuncanSF Shawn MarionSG Kobe BryantPG Paul Piercewith Rasheed Wallace and Vince Carter on the bench.Of course Wilt didn't win but 1 Championship, he had to go against a roster like that ^ every year. Put Shaq on a team with say Jason Kidd and Lebron James. They will contend with the above team, but they won't beat them consistently.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chang @ Apr 24 2006, 03:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>#1 You make it sound like he played with 4 top 50s at the same time.#2 Hal Greer is no longer top 50 greatest all time. That list was made in 96. Chet Walker was never a top 50 greatest player of all time. Only Cunningham and West were legit top 50 players.#3 His scoring dipped from 61-67 every year. When he played with Jerry West, it was close to the end of his career. He didn't score much. Al lhe did was stand there and get a rebound.#4 Shaq's scoring has been dipping every year too but still averages what 26 12 2.5? Shaq had to play with bonafide superstars. Penny of the past was one of the greatest. Kobe is a top 5-10 even though he thinks he is a team. Wade will be a top 50 all time. If you consider Walt the greatest, Shaq has to be a close 2nd.Wilt is a better player than Shaq but he was before his time, making his stats look amazing. He's still one of the top 5 players with Michael Jordan, Dr. J, Pistol Pete, and Kareem.</div>Do you have the list of the Top 50? I've just been taking his word for it.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! [quote name='chang' post='43035' date='Apr 24 2006, 06:55 PM']#1 You make it sound like he played with 4 top 50s at the same time.#2 Hal Greer is no longer top 50 greatest all time. That list was made in 96. Chet Walker was never a top 50 greatest player of all time. Only Cunningham and West were legit top 50 players.#3 His scoring dipped from 61-67 every year. When he played with Jerry West, it was close to the end of his career. He didn't score much. Al lhe did was stand there and get a rebound.#4 Shaq's scoring has been dipping every year too but still averages what 26 12 2.5? Shaq had to play with bonafide superstars. Penny of the past was one of the greatest. Kobe is a top 5-10 even though he thinks he is a team. Wade will be a top 50 all time. If you consider Walt the greatest, Shaq has to be a close 2nd.Wilt is a better player than Shaq but he was before his time, making his stats look amazing. He's still one of the top 5 players with Michael Jordan, Dr. J, Pistol Pete, and Kareem.[/quote] #1. He played with Greer and Chet at the same time. Playing with Cunningham or West had to be a huge factor. #2. Hal Greer is still a top 50. The NBA never changed it. Updated versions were made that had nothing to do with NBA. Chet wasnt a top 50 but Greatest players.#3 He got more talent around him which can be why his scoring dropped. He had a ship with Jerry West, thas why I included it. Nobody just stands there. He was probably still trying to score. He wasnt jerry's ballboy, he just got older.#4 What made Penny the Greatest? PLaying with Shaq. I bet if he didnt injure his knee, his numbers wouldve still dropped. Kobe wouldnt have gotten the rings if it wasnt for Shaq, Wade wouldnt have reached so deep into the playoffs if it wasnt for Shaq. Shaq draws double teams which results in open shots. Shaq changes the game entirely for anybody that plays with him. I bet if I played with im I would average 10 points a game.[quote name='Jon_Vilma' post='43038' date='Apr 24 2006, 07:02 PM'][quote name='GotSkillz52' post='43022' date='Apr 24 2006, 03:21 PM']Once again Wilt played with 4 top 50 players of all time. Can you name the players on that spectactular Celtic team with Russell? You talk about advantages Wilt was 55 pounds heavier and like 3 inches taller.[/quote]In every single year of his career that he won a ring, he had at least 3 of the following on his team:Sam Jones, HOFerK.C. Jones, HOFerBill Sharman, HOFerFrank Ramsey, HOFerTom Heinsohn, HOFerJohn Havlicek, HOFerBailey Howell, HOFerClyde Lovellette, HOFerArnie Risen, HOFerBob Cousy, HOFerAndy Phillip, HOFerWorking with 11 Hall of Famers, the bare minimum of 3 at a time, I'm sure had nothing to do with the Celtics success.Including Bill Russell, the Celtics had 4 future Hall of Famers on the floor every single year they won a championship from 1957-1969. And this doesn't include the players who were simply multi-year All-Stars.Put 4 future Hall of Famers on the floor at the same time, and you're going to win a championship. Lets list any 4 future hall of famers in the NBA right now, all playing on the same court with some multi-year all stars in that 5 spot and on the bench.... and they'll dominate.So lets see.C Ben WallacePF Tim DuncanSF Shawn MarionSG Kobe BryantPG Paul Piercewith Rasheed Wallace and Vince Carter on the bench.Of course Wilt didn't win but 1 Championship, he had to go against a roster like that ^ every year. Put Shaq on a team with say Jason Kidd and Lebron James. They will contend with the above team, but they won't beat them consistently.[quote name='chang' post='43035' date='Apr 24 2006, 03:55 PM']#1 You make it sound like he played with 4 top 50s at the same time.#2 Hal Greer is no longer top 50 greatest all time. That list was made in 96. Chet Walker was never a top 50 greatest player of all time. Only Cunningham and West were legit top 50 players.#3 His scoring dipped from 61-67 every year. When he played with Jerry West, it was close to the end of his career. He didn't score much. Al lhe did was stand there and get a rebound.#4 Shaq's scoring has been dipping every year too but still averages what 26 12 2.5? Shaq had to play with bonafide superstars. Penny of the past was one of the greatest. Kobe is a top 5-10 even though he thinks he is a team. Wade will be a top 50 all time. If you consider Walt the greatest, Shaq has to be a close 2nd.Wilt is a better player than Shaq but he was before his time, making his stats look amazing. He's still one of the top 5 players with Michael Jordan, Dr. J, Pistol Pete, and Kareem.[/quote]Do you have the list of the Top 50? I've just been taking his word for it.[/quote]http://www.nba.com/history/players/50greatest.htmlChet wasnt top 50. I got confused with another list.Why didnt the Lakers succeed with 4 future HOF's?ShaqKobePaytonMaloneThey didnt have allstars but they had very good role players like Fisher, George, Medvedenko, and Rush who provided sparks off the bench.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! [quote name='GotSkillz52' post='43052' date='Apr 24 2006, 04:26 PM'][quote name='chang' post='43035' date='Apr 24 2006, 06:55 PM']#1 You make it sound like he played with 4 top 50s at the same time.#2 Hal Greer is no longer top 50 greatest all time. That list was made in 96. Chet Walker was never a top 50 greatest player of all time. Only Cunningham and West were legit top 50 players.#3 His scoring dipped from 61-67 every year. When he played with Jerry West, it was close to the end of his career. He didn't score much. Al lhe did was stand there and get a rebound.#4 Shaq's scoring has been dipping every year too but still averages what 26 12 2.5? Shaq had to play with bonafide superstars. Penny of the past was one of the greatest. Kobe is a top 5-10 even though he thinks he is a team. Wade will be a top 50 all time. If you consider Walt the greatest, Shaq has to be a close 2nd.Wilt is a better player than Shaq but he was before his time, making his stats look amazing. He's still one of the top 5 players with Michael Jordan, Dr. J, Pistol Pete, and Kareem.[/quote] #1. He played with Greer and Chet at the same time. Playing with Cunningham or West had to be a huge factor. #2. Hal Greer is still a top 50. The NBA never changed it. Updated versions were made that had nothing to do with NBA. Chet wasnt a top 50 but Greatest players.#3 He got more talent around him which can be why his scoring dropped. He had a ship with Jerry West, thas why I included it. Nobody just stands there. He was probably still trying to score. He wasnt jerry's ballboy, he just got older.#4 What made Penny the Greatest? PLaying with Shaq. I bet if he didnt injure his knee, his numbers wouldve still dropped. Kobe wouldnt have gotten the rings if it wasnt for Shaq, Wade wouldnt have reached so deep into the playoffs if it wasnt for Shaq. Shaq draws double teams which results in open shots. Shaq changes the game entirely for anybody that plays with him. I bet if I played with im I would average 10 points a game.[quote name='Jon_Vilma' post='43038' date='Apr 24 2006, 07:02 PM'][quote name='GotSkillz52' post='43022' date='Apr 24 2006, 03:21 PM']Once again Wilt played with 4 top 50 players of all time. Can you name the players on that spectactular Celtic team with Russell? You talk about advantages Wilt was 55 pounds heavier and like 3 inches taller.[/quote]In every single year of his career that he won a ring, he had at least 3 of the following on his team:Sam Jones, HOFerK.C. Jones, HOFerBill Sharman, HOFerFrank Ramsey, HOFerTom Heinsohn, HOFerJohn Havlicek, HOFerBailey Howell, HOFerClyde Lovellette, HOFerArnie Risen, HOFerBob Cousy, HOFerAndy Phillip, HOFerWorking with 11 Hall of Famers, the bare minimum of 3 at a time, I'm sure had nothing to do with the Celtics success.Including Bill Russell, the Celtics had 4 future Hall of Famers on the floor every single year they won a championship from 1957-1969. And this doesn't include the players who were simply multi-year All-Stars.Put 4 future Hall of Famers on the floor at the same time, and you're going to win a championship. Lets list any 4 future hall of famers in the NBA right now, all playing on the same court with some multi-year all stars in that 5 spot and on the bench.... and they'll dominate.So lets see.C Ben WallacePF Tim DuncanSF Shawn MarionSG Kobe BryantPG Paul Piercewith Rasheed Wallace and Vince Carter on the bench.Of course Wilt didn't win but 1 Championship, he had to go against a roster like that ^ every year. Put Shaq on a team with say Jason Kidd and Lebron James. They will contend with the above team, but they won't beat them consistently.[quote name='chang' post='43035' date='Apr 24 2006, 03:55 PM']#1 You make it sound like he played with 4 top 50s at the same time.#2 Hal Greer is no longer top 50 greatest all time. That list was made in 96. Chet Walker was never a top 50 greatest player of all time. Only Cunningham and West were legit top 50 players.#3 His scoring dipped from 61-67 every year. When he played with Jerry West, it was close to the end of his career. He didn't score much. Al lhe did was stand there and get a rebound.#4 Shaq's scoring has been dipping every year too but still averages what 26 12 2.5? Shaq had to play with bonafide superstars. Penny of the past was one of the greatest. Kobe is a top 5-10 even though he thinks he is a team. Wade will be a top 50 all time. If you consider Walt the greatest, Shaq has to be a close 2nd.Wilt is a better player than Shaq but he was before his time, making his stats look amazing. He's still one of the top 5 players with Michael Jordan, Dr. J, Pistol Pete, and Kareem.[/quote]Do you have the list of the Top 50? I've just been taking his word for it.[/quote]http://www.nba.com/history/players/50greatest.htmlChet wasnt top 50. I got confused with another list.Why didnt the Lakers succeed with 4 future HOF's?ShaqKobePaytonMaloneThey didnt have allstars but they had very good role players like Fisher, George, Medvedenko, and Rush who provided sparks off the bench.[/quote]You can't in any way shape or form compare the Glove and the Mailman in their end of the rope effort to get a ring to the multitude of HOFers in their prime playing in Boston.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! [quote name='Jon_Vilma' post='43062' date='Apr 24 2006, 07:56 PM'][quote name='GotSkillz52' post='43052' date='Apr 24 2006, 04:26 PM'][quote name='chang' post='43035' date='Apr 24 2006, 06:55 PM']#1 You make it sound like he played with 4 top 50s at the same time.#2 Hal Greer is no longer top 50 greatest all time. That list was made in 96. Chet Walker was never a top 50 greatest player of all time. Only Cunningham and West were legit top 50 players.#3 His scoring dipped from 61-67 every year. When he played with Jerry West, it was close to the end of his career. He didn't score much. Al lhe did was stand there and get a rebound.#4 Shaq's scoring has been dipping every year too but still averages what 26 12 2.5? Shaq had to play with bonafide superstars. Penny of the past was one of the greatest. Kobe is a top 5-10 even though he thinks he is a team. Wade will be a top 50 all time. If you consider Walt the greatest, Shaq has to be a close 2nd.Wilt is a better player than Shaq but he was before his time, making his stats look amazing. He's still one of the top 5 players with Michael Jordan, Dr. J, Pistol Pete, and Kareem.[/quote] #1. He played with Greer and Chet at the same time. Playing with Cunningham or West had to be a huge factor. #2. Hal Greer is still a top 50. The NBA never changed it. Updated versions were made that had nothing to do with NBA. Chet wasnt a top 50 but Greatest players.#3 He got more talent around him which can be why his scoring dropped. He had a ship with Jerry West, thas why I included it. Nobody just stands there. He was probably still trying to score. He wasnt jerry's ballboy, he just got older.#4 What made Penny the Greatest? PLaying with Shaq. I bet if he didnt injure his knee, his numbers wouldve still dropped. Kobe wouldnt have gotten the rings if it wasnt for Shaq, Wade wouldnt have reached so deep into the playoffs if it wasnt for Shaq. Shaq draws double teams which results in open shots. Shaq changes the game entirely for anybody that plays with him. I bet if I played with im I would average 10 points a game.[quote name='Jon_Vilma' post='43038' date='Apr 24 2006, 07:02 PM'][quote name='GotSkillz52' post='43022' date='Apr 24 2006, 03:21 PM']Once again Wilt played with 4 top 50 players of all time. Can you name the players on that spectactular Celtic team with Russell? You talk about advantages Wilt was 55 pounds heavier and like 3 inches taller.[/quote]In every single year of his career that he won a ring, he had at least 3 of the following on his team:Sam Jones, HOFerK.C. Jones, HOFerBill Sharman, HOFerFrank Ramsey, HOFerTom Heinsohn, HOFerJohn Havlicek, HOFerBailey Howell, HOFerClyde Lovellette, HOFerArnie Risen, HOFerBob Cousy, HOFerAndy Phillip, HOFerWorking with 11 Hall of Famers, the bare minimum of 3 at a time, I'm sure had nothing to do with the Celtics success.Including Bill Russell, the Celtics had 4 future Hall of Famers on the floor every single year they won a championship from 1957-1969. And this doesn't include the players who were simply multi-year All-Stars.Put 4 future Hall of Famers on the floor at the same time, and you're going to win a championship. Lets list any 4 future hall of famers in the NBA right now, all playing on the same court with some multi-year all stars in that 5 spot and on the bench.... and they'll dominate.So lets see.C Ben WallacePF Tim DuncanSF Shawn MarionSG Kobe BryantPG Paul Piercewith Rasheed Wallace and Vince Carter on the bench.Of course Wilt didn't win but 1 Championship, he had to go against a roster like that ^ every year. Put Shaq on a team with say Jason Kidd and Lebron James. They will contend with the above team, but they won't beat them consistently.[quote name='chang' post='43035' date='Apr 24 2006, 03:55 PM']#1 You make it sound like he played with 4 top 50s at the same time.#2 Hal Greer is no longer top 50 greatest all time. That list was made in 96. Chet Walker was never a top 50 greatest player of all time. Only Cunningham and West were legit top 50 players.#3 His scoring dipped from 61-67 every year. When he played with Jerry West, it was close to the end of his career. He didn't score much. Al lhe did was stand there and get a rebound.#4 Shaq's scoring has been dipping every year too but still averages what 26 12 2.5? Shaq had to play with bonafide superstars. Penny of the past was one of the greatest. Kobe is a top 5-10 even though he thinks he is a team. Wade will be a top 50 all time. If you consider Walt the greatest, Shaq has to be a close 2nd.Wilt is a better player than Shaq but he was before his time, making his stats look amazing. He's still one of the top 5 players with Michael Jordan, Dr. J, Pistol Pete, and Kareem.[/quote]Do you have the list of the Top 50? I've just been taking his word for it.[/quote]http://www.nba.com/history/players/50greatest.htmlChet wasnt top 50. I got confused with another list.Why didnt the Lakers succeed with 4 future HOF's?ShaqKobePaytonMaloneThey didnt have allstars but they had very good role players like Fisher, George, Medvedenko, and Rush who provided sparks off the bench.[/quote]You can't in any way shape or form compare the Glove and the Mailman in their end of the rope effort to get a ring to the multitude of HOFers in their prime playing in Boston.[/quote] End of the Rope but they could still put up numbers. The Glove is a key addition to the heat off the bench. Karl put up solid numbers with LA.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! The list is 10 years old!The chances Hal Greer still makes the list is slim to none.KG, Nash, Kobe, T-Mac, etc have to make the list.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! [quote name='GotSkillz52' post='43067' date='Apr 24 2006, 05:24 PM'][quote name='Jon_Vilma' post='43062' date='Apr 24 2006, 07:56 PM'][quote name='GotSkillz52' post='43052' date='Apr 24 2006, 04:26 PM'][quote name='chang' post='43035' date='Apr 24 2006, 06:55 PM']#1 You make it sound like he played with 4 top 50s at the same time.#2 Hal Greer is no longer top 50 greatest all time. That list was made in 96. Chet Walker was never a top 50 greatest player of all time. Only Cunningham and West were legit top 50 players.#3 His scoring dipped from 61-67 every year. When he played with Jerry West, it was close to the end of his career. He didn't score much. Al lhe did was stand there and get a rebound.#4 Shaq's scoring has been dipping every year too but still averages what 26 12 2.5? Shaq had to play with bonafide superstars. Penny of the past was one of the greatest. Kobe is a top 5-10 even though he thinks he is a team. Wade will be a top 50 all time. If you consider Walt the greatest, Shaq has to be a close 2nd.Wilt is a better player than Shaq but he was before his time, making his stats look amazing. He's still one of the top 5 players with Michael Jordan, Dr. J, Pistol Pete, and Kareem.[/quote] #1. He played with Greer and Chet at the same time. Playing with Cunningham or West had to be a huge factor. #2. Hal Greer is still a top 50. The NBA never changed it. Updated versions were made that had nothing to do with NBA. Chet wasnt a top 50 but Greatest players.#3 He got more talent around him which can be why his scoring dropped. He had a ship with Jerry West, thas why I included it. Nobody just stands there. He was probably still trying to score. He wasnt jerry's ballboy, he just got older.#4 What made Penny the Greatest? PLaying with Shaq. I bet if he didnt injure his knee, his numbers wouldve still dropped. Kobe wouldnt have gotten the rings if it wasnt for Shaq, Wade wouldnt have reached so deep into the playoffs if it wasnt for Shaq. Shaq draws double teams which results in open shots. Shaq changes the game entirely for anybody that plays with him. I bet if I played with im I would average 10 points a game.[quote name='Jon_Vilma' post='43038' date='Apr 24 2006, 07:02 PM'][quote name='GotSkillz52' post='43022' date='Apr 24 2006, 03:21 PM']Once again Wilt played with 4 top 50 players of all time. Can you name the players on that spectactular Celtic team with Russell? You talk about advantages Wilt was 55 pounds heavier and like 3 inches taller.[/quote]In every single year of his career that he won a ring, he had at least 3 of the following on his team:Sam Jones, HOFerK.C. Jones, HOFerBill Sharman, HOFerFrank Ramsey, HOFerTom Heinsohn, HOFerJohn Havlicek, HOFerBailey Howell, HOFerClyde Lovellette, HOFerArnie Risen, HOFerBob Cousy, HOFerAndy Phillip, HOFerWorking with 11 Hall of Famers, the bare minimum of 3 at a time, I'm sure had nothing to do with the Celtics success.Including Bill Russell, the Celtics had 4 future Hall of Famers on the floor every single year they won a championship from 1957-1969. And this doesn't include the players who were simply multi-year All-Stars.Put 4 future Hall of Famers on the floor at the same time, and you're going to win a championship. Lets list any 4 future hall of famers in the NBA right now, all playing on the same court with some multi-year all stars in that 5 spot and on the bench.... and they'll dominate.So lets see.C Ben WallacePF Tim DuncanSF Shawn MarionSG Kobe BryantPG Paul Piercewith Rasheed Wallace and Vince Carter on the bench.Of course Wilt didn't win but 1 Championship, he had to go against a roster like that ^ every year. Put Shaq on a team with say Jason Kidd and Lebron James. They will contend with the above team, but they won't beat them consistently.[quote name='chang' post='43035' date='Apr 24 2006, 03:55 PM']#1 You make it sound like he played with 4 top 50s at the same time.#2 Hal Greer is no longer top 50 greatest all time. That list was made in 96. Chet Walker was never a top 50 greatest player of all time. Only Cunningham and West were legit top 50 players.#3 His scoring dipped from 61-67 every year. When he played with Jerry West, it was close to the end of his career. He didn't score much. Al lhe did was stand there and get a rebound.#4 Shaq's scoring has been dipping every year too but still averages what 26 12 2.5? Shaq had to play with bonafide superstars. Penny of the past was one of the greatest. Kobe is a top 5-10 even though he thinks he is a team. Wade will be a top 50 all time. If you consider Walt the greatest, Shaq has to be a close 2nd.Wilt is a better player than Shaq but he was before his time, making his stats look amazing. He's still one of the top 5 players with Michael Jordan, Dr. J, Pistol Pete, and Kareem.[/quote]Do you have the list of the Top 50? I've just been taking his word for it.[/quote]http://www.nba.com/history/players/50greatest.htmlChet wasnt top 50. I got confused with another list.Why didnt the Lakers succeed with 4 future HOF's?ShaqKobePaytonMaloneThey didnt have allstars but they had very good role players like Fisher, George, Medvedenko, and Rush who provided sparks off the bench.[/quote]You can't in any way shape or form compare the Glove and the Mailman in their end of the rope effort to get a ring to the multitude of HOFers in their prime playing in Boston.[/quote] End of the Rope but they could still put up numbers. The Glove is a key addition to the heat off the bench. Karl put up solid numbers with LA.[/quote]You can't compare HOFers in their prime with HOFers who are a shell of themselves in a last ditch effort for a ring, unless you are a complete and total moron. Accept your defeat and move on, this has gotten humiliating for you.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! Admit what defeat. Humiliating for who? You keep on saying the same thing. Wilt is not better than Shaq or Kareem. You might make a point for Russell but thats it. Wilt played with small players who couldnt stop him. Its like me going to a kiddie park and dominating everybody. The Glove and Malone were good enough to win a ship. They had enough in the bag to pull it out. O and Chang there is NOWAY KG and T-MAC make that list since T-mac has never passed the first round and KG has yet to get a ring and has only passed the first round once.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GotSkillz52 @ Apr 25 2006, 12:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Admit what defeat. Humiliating for who? You keep on saying the same thing. Wilt is not better than Shaq or Kareem. You might make a point for Russell but thats it. Wilt played with small players who couldnt stop him. Its like me going to a kiddie park and dominating everybody. The Glove and Malone were good enough to win a ship. They had enough in the bag to pull it out. O and Chang there is NOWAY KG and T-MAC make that list since T-mac has never passed the first round and KG has yet to get a ring and has only passed the first round once.</div>
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! There are plenty of "current" NBA 50 greatest that have never won a championship (Lenny Willkins, Thumond, BARKLEY, McHale, Sam jones, Stockton, Malone, Ewing, a few others). Kevin Garnett and T-Mac would whoop at least the bottom 10 of the "current" top 50.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! This is an MVP deserving performance for this guy. He's getting TDs like crazy and he's only in his 3rd year. I don't c Nash getting any.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! Nash is the MVP. He is what makes the Suns engine run. He makes his teammates better, the true meaning of most valuable to the team. If you see how the Suns play when Nash is injured, they play horrible. Nash is the MVP.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! As much as I hate him, Kobe should be the MVP. Take him from the Lakers, the only person able of doing something would be Odom. Take LeBron from the Cavs, Hughes, Big Z, Gooden, can all contribute to win games.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrianUrlacher54 @ Apr 25 2006, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Nash is the MVP. He is what makes the Suns engine run. He makes his teammates better, the true meaning of most valuable to the team. If you see how the Suns play when Nash is injured, they play horrible. Nash is the MVP.</div>Nash = Stephon Marbury to the Suns. And Marbury is no MVP.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! BTW, the reasons the Suns look like they're a snake without a head when Nash doesn't play is because he is their only PG. Barbosa was and will always be the score 1st "PG". He's more a SG. Diaw tries to be like Odom but isn't versatile enough. They really need to draft Rajon Rondo or Dan Gibson this draft.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chang @ Apr 25 2006, 06:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>BTW, the reasons the Suns look like they're a snake without a head when Nash doesn't play is because he is their only PG. Barbosa was and will always be the score 1st "PG". He's more a SG. Diaw tries to be like Odom but isn't versatile enough. They really need to draft Rajon Rondo or Dan Gibson this draft.</div>Pretty much, Starbury and Kidd took them to the playoffs too, and without Amare.
Re: LBJ: Triple-Double in his Debut!!! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chang @ Apr 25 2006, 05:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>There are plenty of "current" NBA 50 greatest that have never won a championship (Lenny Willkins, Thumond, BARKLEY, McHale, Sam jones, Stockton, Malone, Ewing, a few others). Kevin Garnett and T-Mac would whoop at least the bottom 10 of the "current" top 50.</div>Did I say win a ship? All of those guys you mentioned were close to winning a championship alot of times. They succeeded in the playoffs but just couldnt win the series. They consisently took their teams to the playoffs which KG and T-Mac can't. You cant compare the players of today with the old-school.
