Let's picture the Lakers without Kobe for just a minute...

Re: Let's picture the Lakers without Kobe for just a minute...

[quote name='Real Deal' post='14045' date='Mar 8 2006, 12:54 AM']Must be why he still took $30 million from the Heat, declined $25 million or so from the Lakers, and when he was verbally beat up by Riley (finally), he took $20 million.The highest paid player in the NBA doesn't care about money...at his age, at his decline...doesn't sound right to me.[/quote]I never said he didn't care about money, but he went to a great upcoming team with an emerging SG as opposed to a crap team.

Smush and Kobe certainly aren't the PG for the team, so while Odom isn't a guard, he still plays point and controls the offense.

Kobe had to be playmaker last season. I brought it up because with Odom as playmaker, it gives Kobe that load off his back to do more scoring and be more efficient. And playmakers can both pass and score (AI, Bron, etc..).As for Nash, he averages twice as many asssits as Kobe did last year, so him having less TO's is pretty amazing.

Well, if it is such a disadvantage, they wouldn't have a record just as good as with Rudy T and Kobe/Odom healthy last year, despite being with less talent. The traingle hurts Odom's scoring, but it allows him to be a playmaker, thus allowing Kobe to shine more. Triangle has been proven to work, those 9 championships Phil has prove that.

 

Re: Let's picture the Lakers without Kobe for just a minute...

Wow.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Smush and Kobe certainly aren't the PG for the team, so while Odom isn't a guard, he still plays point and controls the offense.</div>He's not the PG, simple as that. No matter what you say, he's not the PG. Playing SF and playing point-forward...they are two different positions.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>As for Nash, he averages twice as many asssits as Kobe did last year, so him having less TO's is pretty amazing.</div>Are assists a one-way street? I don't think so. Kobe averaged 6 assists last season, more than Odom is averaging right now. Kobe, with nobody to pass to last year, averaged more than Odom, who has Kobe to pass to this season. I don't get it...do you?I'd trade our entire team (minus Kobe) for Marion, Thomas, Diaw and Bell.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Well, if it is such a disadvantage, they wouldn't have a record just as good as with Rudy T and Kobe/Odom healthy last year, despite being with less talent.</div>The Lakers were 6th seed in the West before picking up the triangle. The only reason the Lakers are winning more this year is because of Kobe Bryant, hands down, no reason to debate it. Our team is better defensively; Caron sucked on defense, and Atkins played less defense on the Lakers than I did...but if Kobe was the Kobe of last season, where he had some trust in his teammates, we would be out of the playoffs as we speak.

 

Re: Let's picture the Lakers without Kobe for just a minute...

I lost all hope in the lakers other players where in the game against the knicks kobe drives passes the ball to Walton who proceedes to pass the ball back. I was so pissed off because everyone was being clutch and Walton stuff it up.

 

Re: Let's picture the Lakers without Kobe for just a minute...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lakaboy42 @ Mar 8 2006, 02:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Do you realize how many nicknames shaq has given himself, "The Big Aristotle" and "Superman" are the most well known that come to mind.</div> Shaq's just kidding...that doofus made a new nickname every year.

 

Re: Let's picture the Lakers without Kobe for just a minute...

[quote name='Real Deal' post='14071' date='Mar 8 2006, 01:12 AM']He's not the PG, simple as that. No matter what you say, he's not the PG. Playing SF and playing point-forward...they are two different positions.[/quote]As I said, he plays point. Meaning he is main playmaker. period.

Nobody to pass to? Caron, Lamar (pres-triangle), Atkins....you gotta be kidding me. Being playmaker doesn't mean getting most assists, it means setting up offense and initiating the whole bit, and making everything work. Without Lamar, Kobe would be having the crap season he had last year.

Diaw is nothing without Nash. Marion is great alone, but with Nash he is much better. Thomas...ehh. Bell is only effective as he is because of Nash. Nash is making a bunch of average role players look like all stars, and they have 2nd best record in highly compeititive West. Nash deserves MVP, period. Especially since he is carrying a team to a record with possibly only 5-10 less wins, despite giving up Joe Johnson and QRich, and losing Amare whole year.

Yes Kobe is huge reason, but big reaosn is Phil for making lamar playmaker. Again, I cannot stress the importance. This year they have less talent, and if Kobe was playmaker this year, he would be having a worse season than last year and without Caron or Chucky, the record would be much worse. Last year wasn't a matter of Kobe having more trust, it was a matter of him being playmaker and HAVING to trust teammates. This year he is designated scorer and that is his primary concern, so he is allowed to go on his streaks of shooting 5-6 shots in a row without passing.

 

Re: Let's picture the Lakers without Kobe for just a minute...

[quote name='Nitro1118' post='14081' date='Mar 8 2006, 12:22 AM']As I said, he plays point. Meaning he is main playmaker. period.[/quote]Agreed...because he is not the point guard, but the point-forward...period.[quote name='Nitro1118' post='14081' date='Mar 8 2006, 12:22 AM']Without Lamar, Kobe would be having the crap season he had last year.[/quote]Didn't you say that the last two seasons have been similar though? Kobe was the primary ball-handler in Rudy's offense...and they were just a bit better. [quote name='Nitro1118' post='14081' date='Mar 8 2006, 12:22 AM']Diaw is nothing without Nash. Thomas...ehh. Bell is only effective as he is because of Nash.[/quote]Bell is a great defender, always has been, and has nothing to do with Nash. Also, his stats haven't budged from what they were last year with the Jazz, especially considering the fact he plays 10 minutes more per game.Kurt Thomas, same exact thing...he's playing the same ball he was playing in New York the previous year, better stats last year, but 10 minutes more as well.The only guy to truly improve is Boris Diaw, but you'll notice he's also playing in his natural position: as a big, which explains his FG%. [quote name='Nitro1118' post='14081' date='Mar 8 2006, 12:22 AM']Yes Kobe is huge reason, but big reaosn is Phil for making lamar playmaker. Again, I cannot stress the importance. This year they have less talent, and if Kobe was playmaker this year, he would be having a worse season than last year and without Caron or Chucky, the record would be much worse.[/quote]So now you're saying it's because of the triangle? That's what I figured. [quote name='Nitro1118' post='14081' date='Mar 8 2006, 12:22 AM']Last year wasn't a matter of Kobe having more trust, it was a matter of him being playmaker and HAVING to trust teammates. This year he is designated scorer and that is his primary concern, so he is allowed to go on his streaks of shooting 5-6 shots in a row without passing.[/quote]And again, I'll say this: he was the primary ball-handler for the first half of the season, and held the same record as the Lakers did this season. Crap season? This year must be one, too.

 

Re: Let's picture the Lakers without Kobe for just a minute...

Raja bel is a great defensive player something our team lacks.

 

Re: Let's picture the Lakers without Kobe for just a minute...

Ok, since the nickname stuff is taboo for Ballaholic, me and Melo were talking, and I was wondering what's the lowdown on Shaq hitting Kobe when he was a minor?

 

Re: Let's picture the Lakers without Kobe for just a minute...

[quote name='Real Deal' post='14096' date='Mar 8 2006, 01:34 AM']Agreed...because he is not the point guard, but the point-forward...period.[/quote]I corrected myself 2 posts ago, saying ther eis no PG on lakers, and while Lamar isn't a guard, he is still point.

I do not know what the hell you are referring to here or trying to prove, so I'll move on....

Same ball, but they are getting easier shots, and they all go take turns going on huge hot streaks in games (Suns are averaging 107PPG, despite being Amare-less and having less scoring talent than last year, and Nash's insrease in stats just proves how valuable he is). As for Diaw, he is also now a triple double threat, mainly because of Nash and how he opens EVERYONE and EVERYTHING up.

What the HELL are you talking about? I didn't bring up the triangle at all.

When I say crap season I refer to Kobe's stats. Last year he had career lows in FG % and career high in TO's. That is because for the 1st time he had to be playmaker on a non-chmpionship caliber team. If he was main ballhandler on same offense as first half of seaosn last year, lakers would be much worse as they have less talent. But with Lamar in that position now, and Kobe being able to shine as a scorer, they are successful. That is why Lamar is so important.

 

Re: Let's picture the Lakers without Kobe for just a minute...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rok @ Mar 8 2006, 12:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ok, since the nickname stuff is taboo for Ballaholic, me and Melo were talking, and I was wondering what's the lowdown on Shaq hitting Kobe when he was a minor?</div>Nobody ever talks about it, like the time Jordan slapped Kerr in the face. There were allegations of it, and the media kinda walked from it, but someone interviewed Derek Fisher once...and he actually mentioned it.I used to have the interview; someone posted it a long time ago on another site I used to visit (pre-OTR). I don't think I have it anymore, but I'll upload it if I can find it.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Mar 8 2006, 12:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I corrected myself 2 posts ago, saying ther eis no PG on lakers, and while Lamar isn't a guard, he is still point.I do not know what the hell you are referring to here or trying to prove, so I'll move on....Same ball, but they are getting easier shots, and they all go take turns going on huge hot streaks in games (Suns are averaging 107PPG, despite being Amare-less and having less scoring talent than last year, and Nash's insrease in stats just proves how valuable he is). As for Diaw, he is also now a triple double threat, mainly because of Nash and how he opens EVERYONE and EVERYTHING up. What the HELL are you talking about? I didn't bring up the triangle at all. When I say crap season I refer to Kobe's stats. Last year he had career lows in FG % and career high in TO's. That is because for the 1st time he had to be playmaker on a non-chmpionship caliber team. If he was main ballhandler on same offense as first half of seaosn last year, lakers would be much worse as they have less talent. But with Lamar in that position now, and Kobe being able to shine as a scorer, they are successful. That is why Lamar is so important.</div>All I'm saying to all of this is that you stated that you were sick and tired of hearing about the triangle as being the excuse. Well, if it wasn't for the triangle, Odom wouldn't be running the point. This means he is scoring less. That means we have no second option. The triangle is hurting our team at this point, because where any other team can find a second option, we can't because our players can't play in the triangle.In layman's terms, in the simplest way I can put it, Kobe is the only player on this team playing the triangle correctly each time down the court, which is why he's the only consistent player on this team, and the only reason we are winning this season.Tex Winter and Jim Cleamons didn't tell everyone that the triangle was the toughest offensive in the league to learn for no reason. If the Lakers didn't have two incredible players in Kobe and Shaq, who they rode for three years before winning a ring, then the triangle wouldn't have worked that first season with Phil...just like it didn't in his first season with Jordan and Pippen...not to mention the triangle with Kobe is the reverse tri, where with Shaq and Kobe, it's the post tri, two different versions.In the reverse triangle, for an example, the actual triangle begins on the far right, your SG hits the SF, who hits the PF. Once your 2-guard passes the ball, the center comes over and sets a screen, where the SG slashes to the top of the key, receiving the pass from the PF (if he is open). If he doesn't have a man, the guard shoots from the top of the key, or if the lane is open, he can drive the lane. If the passing lane is closed, or if you're playing the Detroit Pistons, then the guard continues through to the corner (left). At that time, the center will screen for your PG, who will do the exact same thing as your 2-guard. Now here's where the triangle gets tricky. As your center sets the screen, he waits, then cuts to the basket...so if your PG doesn't have the shot, your center will more than likely be open. In fact, your PG can even receive the ball, then throw a quick, nasty pass to the slashing center for an easy two...or, shoot the ball himself.If the PG and the center are stuck, then you have to reset the triangle to your left. With the ball in your PF's hands, 3 will come and take the hand-off, and your PF will move through the high post position, where the PG moves back up to his point area, and your center comes out to the right wing. Notice anything, yet? Ahh...to run the triangle, everyone, including your center, has to be mobile. No single player can just stand around...everyone is active. If someone doesn't move on cue, you create a logjam for your screens, or to free up a player.NEWSFLASH: the Lakers don't move. See anything else different? Kobe is playing as a forward, where Odom is a point-forward, so it's tweaked to accommodate Kobe and him playing off the ball much more. Unfortunately, he can't do that because Odom and the others don't move, and Kobe has no other option but to create for himself.This offense isn't for this group of guys unless we have a second scoring option. Pippen was the point-forward AND that second option. Odom is far from being that.

 

Re: Let's picture the Lakers without Kobe for just a minute...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real Deal @ Mar 8 2006, 01:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Nobody ever talks about it, like the time Jordan slapped Kerr in the face. There were allegations of it, and the media kinda walked from it, but someone interviewed Derek Fisher once...and he actually mentioned it.I used to have the interview; someone posted it a long time ago on another site I used to visit (pre-OTR). I don't think I have it anymore, but I'll upload it if I can find it.All I'm saying to all of this is that you stated that you were sick and tired of hearing about the triangle as being the excuse. Well, if it wasn't for the triangle, Odom wouldn't be running the point. This means he is scoring less. That means we have no second option. The triangle is hurting our team at this point, because where any other team can find a second option, we can't because our players can't play in the triangle.In layman's terms, in the simplest way I can put it, Kobe is the only player on this team playing the triangle correctly each time down the court, which is why he's the only consistent player on this team, and the only reason we are winning this season.Tex Winter and Jim Cleamons didn't tell everyone that the triangle was the toughest offensive in the league to learn for no reason. If the Lakers didn't have two incredible players in Kobe and Shaq, who they rode for three years before winning a ring, then the triangle wouldn't have worked that first season with Phil...just like it didn't in his first season with Jordan and Pippen...not to mention the triangle with Kobe is the reverse tri, where with Shaq and Kobe, it's the post tri, two different versions.In the reverse triangle, for an example, the actual triangle begins on the far right, your SG hits the SF, who hits the PF. Once your 2-guard passes the ball, the center comes over and sets a screen, where the SG slashes to the top of the key, receiving the pass from the PF (if he is open). If he doesn't have a man, the guard shoots from the top of the key, or if the lane is open, he can drive the lane. If the passing lane is closed, or if you're playing the Detroit Pistons, then the guard continues through to the corner (left). At that time, the center will screen for your PG, who will do the exact same thing as your 2-guard. Now here's where the triangle gets tricky. As your center sets the screen, he waits, then cuts to the basket...so if your PG doesn't have the shot, your center will more than likely be open. In fact, your PG can even receive the ball, then throw a quick, nasty pass to the slashing center for an easy two...or, shoot the ball himself.If the PG and the center are stuck, then you have to reset the triangle to your left. With the ball in your PF's hands, 3 will come and take the hand-off, and your PF will move through the high post position, where the PG moves back up to his point area, and your center comes out to the right wing. Notice anything, yet? Ahh...to run the triangle, everyone, including your center, has to be mobile. No single player can just stand around...everyone is active. If someone doesn't move on cue, you create a logjam for your screens, or to free up a player.NEWSFLASH: the Lakers don't move. See anything else different? Kobe is playing as a forward, where Odom is a point-forward, so it's tweaked to accommodate Kobe and him playing off the ball much more. Unfortunately, he can't do that because Odom and the others don't move, and Kobe has no other option but to create for himself.This offense isn't for this group of guys unless we have a second scoring option. Pippen was the point-forward AND that second option. Odom is far from being that.</div>Ugh, you weren't getting my point. In the barest terms, last year when Kobe was playmaker, for I don't care what offense, he was having his worst season yet, and while his team was more talented than this year, they were winning less. That is pre-triangle. This year Odom is the playmaker. Again, I do not care if it is triangle offense or whatnot, but Odom is still playing point and still running the offense, they have a less talented squad, and they are winning. So obviously Phil's triangle has worked, as it has made Kobe much more effective, Odom more effective (yes he is not scoring as much, but his role is a valuable one) and team is playing well.I do appreciate the explaination, though, as it did explain the triangle offense pretty well, and now I understand it a little better. But bottom line is Odom and Phil have been huge parts to lakers success this year as they both give Kobe the oppertunity to shine.

 

Re: Let's picture the Lakers without Kobe for just a minute...

Kobe Haters: The Saga Continues...

 

Re: Let's picture the Lakers without Kobe for just a minute...

Ain't no one hating. I acknowledged this year he is the best player in the NBA. But for a career, he has a lot to prove in terms of leading a team, making choices to show he cares about winning more than individual accomplishments, and to see just how versatile and great he is to other great players.