Same thing. Exactly the same thing. Edit: For some reason this makes me recall the first time I ever saw two men kissing. I had just turned 18 and was at a friends party. My friends parents were in Europe on vacation and well, you know, while the cat's away . . . I was fascinated. I'd never seen that before and it was very uncomfortable. I took it on as a learning experience and just one more barrier I needed to break. It was my natural propensity to consider people as having the same wants, needs, desires as I do and this really brought it home. And, although I still find it a little uncomfortable, I view it as another barrier for society to break through so we can all advance. I hope this clarifies my position of the subject. People are people and we all have the same feelings about this or that, be they Brown, Yellow, Black, White, Red, gay, Catholic, Muslim, Baptist, Mormon, Hindu, Buddhist or lesbian or transsexual and they should all have the same rights for me to be comfortable. What am I prejudiced against? Well, the Trump cult for starters, for they are exclusives and I would throw in KKK, Nazis and White Supremacists.
That's more postjudice than prejudice, it's based on their actual actions, not simply innate characteristics.
Interesting term 'postjudice'. At first I thought you were kidding and then my curiosity made me look it up. It's in the Oxford dictionary but not Webster. This makes me think it's an English word but not an American one. I'm gonna go with Oxford over Webster.
Interesting word use and concept. I do think that while "postjudice" would seem to have a more logic-based component for deciding if one is for or against something, the danger is in the word "their". If stereotypical thinking creeps in to the group or thing you are "postjudging", I don't see that it's any more valid than prejudice. In other words, if one is overly broad in saying all Trump supporters are "deplorable" because you've had experience with ones who are just that, there is by extension prejudice in your definition of the group.
I think it depends on the group and whether certain group traits that you're commenting on really are universal or not. For example, with Trump supporters--I think it would be prejudiced to say they're all racists. Some are, but not all of them. I think it's merely fair judgement, not pre-judgement, to say they're all accepting of racism--because they all literally did precisely that, accepted his racism for whatever priorities they had in voting for him. And this isn't like some minor side point about Trump, like saying that you "accept drunk driving" if you vote for a politician who once had a DUI years ago. Trump made racism, nationalism and xenophobia a front-and-center part of his populist campaign. So, I don't know how valid a word like "deplorable" is, considering it's a pretty vague and subjective term--but if you consider anyone who's accepting of racism to be deplorable, I don't think it's prejudice to say Trump supporters are "deplorables." Maybe you can argue that it's overly harsh, but that's a different issue.
Although it's not necessarily the main subject of this thread, your post made me think. I don't remember the first time I saw two dudes kissing, but I do know that it never made me uncomfortable. Same with women (in fact, that had a completely different effect on me...). I remember in grade school knowing for 100% certain a kid in my class (I'll call them Pat, so as to not give away their gender) was "different", and I did not care one bit. Even to the point where I had to tell another friend of mine, years later, that they didn't stand a chance with Pat, as Pat played for another team. My friend was devastated, and got really mad at me and didn't talk to me for a while. They thought I was jealous (not sure of what though).
All your posts made me think of the only kissing that ever made me uncomfortable, which was fathers kissing their daughters on the lips. Apparently, this is considered normal by a lot of people? No one I knew ever did that and I still find it weird.
Same here. The very thought of kissing either my father or my mother or my brother or any aunt or uncle or any cousin on the lips is somehow really offensive to me. Oh, never had a sister but if I did I wouldn't kiss her on the lips if you pointed a gun to my head. Okay, that might be a stretch but you get my drift.
Can we not make every thread about Trump, please? Mostly because I'm unhappy I didn't think of that joke first.
Do you think Trump has lust in his heart for his daughter? I wouldn't put it past him. He's pretty fucking low.
A list of President Trump’s accomplishments for the LGBT community:•Trump has just appointed Judd Deere, an openly gay man as Deputy Press Secretary. “President Trump is proud of all of his accomplishments for all Americans, including the LGBT community,” Deere said. “While the radical left has pushed false accusations that LGBT Americans are threatened, the president has hired and promoted LGBT Americans to the highest levels of government, launched a global campaign to decriminalize homosexuality and made the bold declaration that we are committed to ending HIV transmissions in the United States within 10 years.” •President Trump is THE FIRST President in US HISTORY to enter office unopposed to gay marriage (Obama opposed gay marriage during his first 4 years in office) •Trump is the FIRST REPUBLICAN President in US history to acknowledge Pride Month. -”As we celebrate LGBT Pride Month and recognize the outstanding contributions LGBT people have made to our great Nation, let us also stand in solidarity with the many LGBT people who live in dozens of countries worldwide that punish, imprison, or even execute individuals on the basis of their sexual orientation. My Administration has launched a global campaign to decriminalize homosexuality and invite all nations to join us in this effort! Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) May 31, 2019 •Trump has appointed THE SECOND openly gay federal prosecutor Patrick J. Bumatay to the Ninth Circuit Courts •Trump has appointed Richard Grenell, as U.S. ambassador to Germany and acting director of the Office of National Intelligence, which made him the first openly gay Cabinet member and the highest-ranking presidential appointee in history. •Trump has stated in an interview with Advocate Magazine in the year 2000; “I don’t care whether or not a person is gay. I judge people based on their capability, honesty, and merit.” •The Trump administration has launched a global effort to end the criminalization of homosexuality in the 69 countries where it remains illegal. •Trump signed a bill reauthorizing the President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief (PEPFAR) until 2023 •Trump Administration secured a historic donation of BILLIONS of dollars in HIV prevention drugs •Trump recently nominated former Log Cabin Republicans president R. Clarke Cooper for a senior position at the State Department on political and military affairs. •Trump renominated lesbian activist Chai R. Feldblum to the EEOC •Trump was asked about Dem candidate Mayor Pete Buttigieg, and said it was “FANTASTIC” to see a married gay man running for president and that he “had no problem with it.” •Trump has also tweeted multiple positive things in regards to the gay community: -“Thank you to the LGBT community! I will fight for you while Hillary brings in more people that will threaten your freedoms and beliefs.” 6/14/16 5 Biggest Misconceptions About The Trump Administration’s Record On LGBTQ Issues If you cut through the lies and the false narratives peddled by the media, you’ll find Trump has been one of the greatest presidents for LGBTQ Americans in history. By Matthew Craffey August 14, 2019 Recently Ric Grenell, the openly gay U.S. ambassador to Germany, hosted a discussion in Berlin with international LGBTQ activists as part of the Trump administration’s efforts to decriminalize homosexuality around the world. More than 70 countries have laws against LGBTQ activities. Through economic influence, increasing education, and advocating policy changes, this important new global campaign hopes to change that. Activists from countries such as Lebanon, Georgia, and Botswana shared their experiences and discussed the harrowing conditions LGBTQ individuals face in their nations. Grenell gave activists from the most affected countries a forum to develop better strategies to fight for LGBTQ policies and made it clear the United States would help in their struggle however it could. The Trump administration also announced the appointment of another openly gay man, Robert Gilchrist, as the U.S. ambassador to Lithuania. If confirmed by the U.S. Senate, Gilchrist could play a pivotal role in LGBTQ policy. His challenge will be to do this in a culturally conservative country that lags other nations in affirming LGBTQ desires. There is a large potential political and cultural impact to our top diplomat in a country like Lithuania being a gay man. It sends a high-profile message that to have a good political and economic relationship with the United States, nations will need to accept LGBTQ individuals and improve treatment of their own LGBTQ citizens. It’s one more example of how the Trump administration is using soft-power and influence to carry out this important global initiative. However, the dominant narrative weaved by the media and Democrats incorrectly paints the administration’s record on LGBTQ issues. The very same Advocate article on Gilchrist’s appointment still claims that overall, “the Trump administration has taken many anti-LGBTQ actions.” But has it? As a gay man myself, it’s important to me to know how the facts measure up to these accusations. Below are the most notable allegations of anti-LGBTQ actions supposedly taken by the Trump administration, and whether the media and leftist politicians reported them accurately. Myth 1: Trump Rescinded Obama Protections for LGBTQ Federal Employees In the weeks leading up to Trump’s inauguration, Bloomberg and several LGBTQ outlets reported that Obama’s executive order protecting LGBTQ federal employees would be rescinded as soon as Trump took office. A December 5, 2016 article in The Advocate—a well-known LGBTQ publication—sounded the alarm that “Donald Trump has signaled that he plans to repeal federal protections for LGBT workers while in office.” James Esseks, director of the LGBT program at the ACLU, warned: “Any attempt by the Trump administration to rescind or weaken Obama’s order would essentially be an effort to ‘authorize discrimination’ against gay and transgender people … The Trump administration has shown that it’s willing to go against core American values of freedom and equality, and it’s troubling to hear they may target LGBT people as well.” A week after Trump’s inauguration, however, the White House released a statement reading, “President Donald J. Trump is determined to protect the rights of all Americans, including the LGBTQ community… The executive order signed in 2014, which protects employees from anti-LGBTQ workplace discrimination while working for federal contractors, will remain intact.” Most of the media outlets that predicted doom and gloom never corrected the record. Unfortunately, many still believe the order protecting LGBTQ federal employees was rescinded. Myth 2: The Trump Administration Removed LGBTQ People From the 2020 Census The National LGBTQ Task Force proclaimed in a statement “We’ve Been Erased!” GLAAD Executive Director Sara Kate Ellis added, “By erasing LGBTQ Americans from the 2020 U.S. Census, the Trump Administration is adding a disgusting entry to a long list of tactics they’ve adopted to legally deny services and legitimacy to hard-working LGBTQ Americans.” The Daily Beast even ran an article with the headline “This Is Why the Erasing of LGBT Americans On the 2020 Census Matters,” accusing the Trump administration of “official prejudice.” There’s only one problem with these accusations. “Are you a member of the LGBTQ community?” has never been a question asked on a U.S. census. Because social scientists know many “closeted” gay people would not accurately report their status, including such as question would fail to represent the true size of the LGBTQ population. Gary Gates, a demographer and former member of the Census Bureau Scientific Advisory Committee, tried to correct the record by telling LGBTQ Nation, “Erasing implies that the Bureau went from measuring sexual orientation and gender identity in the Census to eliminating that measurement … it’s not accurate to suggest that the Census Bureau ‘erased’ them. They’ve never counted them in the first place.” Additionally, many remember the federal government’s lackluster response to the AIDS crisis in the 1980s and society’s treatment of those infected still have concerns about being on some “gay government list.” Being added to the census would reignite those fears. Being LGBTQ has never been a protected class under federal law, and many states don’t have laws defining LGBTQ persons as such either. As a result, many still feel they must live in the shadows. It’s likely that no matter who sits in the White House, this question will remain off the census for some time. Myth 3: Trump Banned Transgender People From the Military This one could be considered “partially true,” but it’s complicated. Even after the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy was lifted in 2011, a ban on being openly transgender in the military continued through the Obama administration into the first year of Trump’s presidency. Obama signed an executive order on June 30, 2016, that would have eventually allowed trans members to openly serve in the armed forces, but it was written to go into effect six months into the next administration. As the implementation deadline approached, Trump issued a halt. After reviewing the implications, and discussions between Trump and then-Defense Secretary Gen. James Mattis, the policy that went into effect in March 2018 allowed for new and existing members to be trans as long as they don’t suffer from gender dysphoria or require transgender surgery after enlisting. Ostensibly, if you are trans, and have already had (or won’t require) transgender surgery once you’re in uniform, you will likely be allowed to join or continue serving. Otherwise, it’s deemed a “military readiness” issue if you will require surgery down the road. It’s likely the military will not pay for hormone and other specific medications many trans individuals regularly require. So, while this is not a “ban” in the truest sense, good people could reasonably disagree on whether this is exclusionary towards trans individuals or a fair compromise. The unfortunate truth is the public debate over trans issues is more recent than those issues that affect gay and lesbian individuals. This “half-way” policy reflects that. Trans policies may be the only area where the Trump administration has a mixed record regarding LGBTQ equality. Myth 4: Trump’s Executive Order on Religious Freedom Allows LGBT Discrimination Weeks before anyone knew what would be in Trump’s executive order on religious freedom, many in the media were speculating. In a Newsweek article, Lambda CEO Rachel Tiven stated, “[Trump’s] come for the immigrants, he’s come for the Muslims. and now he’s coming for the queers.” In reality, Trump’s decree does not give an exemption to religious groups to discriminate against gay people as a matter of conscience. Some Christians were disappointed. One Christianity Today article lamented, “This is not the executive order many evangelicals had been praying for. Gone are the exemptions for religious groups faced with accommodating LGBT anti-discrimination regulations that conflict with their faith convictions.” Once again, the record was not corrected by most media outlets. Buried within a misleadingly titled NBC article is one paragraph near the end that states, “While an earlier draft of the religious liberty order reportedly would have let federal contractors discriminate against LGBT employees based on faith beliefs, Thursday’s version did not include such provisions.” Unfortunately, that bit of truth and context was glossed over. As it never made any headlines, this fact remains mostly unknown. Myth 5: Vice President Pence Supports Conversion Therapy This accusation maybe the one used to scare LGBTQ people most often and most effectively. It was even reinforced on the NBC show “Will & Grace” when, in a recent episode, a main character’s grandson is sent to a gay-conversion therapy camp featuring a very large homage to Pence at the front of the building. Digs at Pence’s supposed support for the practice litter the entire episode. In January 2018, the issue also made international headlines when Olympic figure skater Adam Rippon chided the White House for sending Pence to the Winter Olympics. When USA Today asked whether he would attend the traditional meeting with the V.P., as Pence requested, Rippon responded, “You mean Mike Pence, the same Mike Pence that funded gay conversion therapy? I’m not buying it.” Did Pence do anything of the sort? The issue originates with a quotation on Pence’s 2000 congressional campaign website on the renewal of Ryan White HIV/AIDS funding. The quotation read, “Resources should be directed toward those institutions which provide assistance to those seeking to change their sexual behavior.” While it’s possible one could read that statement as an endorsement of conversion therapy, it’s much more likely be a statement of support for institutions that encourage condom use or the reduction of risky sexual behavior in general. Pence said so himself. I won’t claim to know what’s in Pence’s heart on LGBTQ issues, but the fact is Pence is not on-record supporting conversation therapy and has never “funded it,” as Rippon accused. Yet almost 20 years later, much of the media is still peddling this falsehood. Truth: The Trump Administration Has Notable LGBT Accomplishments Lost among the sea of false accusations is that the Trump administration has done a lot for LGBTQ people. In addition to those previously noted, Trump has made several high-profile LGBTQ appointments, including R. Clark Cooper, assistant secretary of state. The administration has worked constructively with Log Cabin Republicans, one of the oldest LGBTQ Republican groups, on critical federal court appointments. Last year, Trump nominated attorney Patrick Bumatay to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, and judge Mary Rowland to the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois. Both are openly gay. Nikki Haley, Trump’s former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, used her platform to call attention to the atrocities committed against LGBTQ individuals in Chechnya and around the world. This year, in a game-changing move in the fight against HIV and AIDS (whose sufferers are disproportionately LGBTQ), President Trump announced an ambitious initiative to end new HIV transmissions by 2030. President Trump negotiated a donation from Gilead, the pharmaceutical company that makes PrEP, the expensive drug that prevents HIV infections. Two hundred thousand individuals who are most at risk of infection will now receive free PrEP for the next 11 years. Finally, there’s his record as a citizen. Trump supported same-sex civil unions back in a 2000 interview with The Advocate when most politicians in both political parties opposed them. He was one of the first club owners in the 1980s to allow openly gay people entry, then a violation of Florida law due to public panic over the AIDS crisis. He’s been friends with Elton John and numerous other openly gay celebrities throughout his entire life. Before being gay was considered “cool,” Trump already seemed cool with it. While Trump may not be remembered as the president who authored the most pro-LGBTQ legislation, he also isn’t going to be remembered as the one who set us back. In Trump’s America, we are all Americans. We’re no longer defined or separated by being gay or straight. There is not a single thing I can’t do now in Trump’s America as a gay man that I could do in Obama’s. Today in America, being a true advocate of equality is more complicated than supporting every bill that comes before a legislature deemed to be “pro-LGBTQ.” It means distinguishing between policies that are truly good and necessary for LGBTQ people, versus proposals that are simply about getting votes or raising the profile of one’s “advocacy” organization. When Trump errs on LGBTQ policy, it’s fair to hold him accountable. By the same token, we should not assume that every LGBTQ organization or piece of legislation is actually good for LGBT people. We should feel just as compelled to find out the truth and hold media, politicians, and advocacy organizations accountable. For decades, LGBTQ people were the victims of false, generalized media narratives used to marginalize us. If we continue to fall for the same lies without learning the truth for ourselves, we do a tremendous disservice to the decades of hard-fought equality we have worked so hard to achieve. Matthew Craffey of Los Angeles has a bachelor’s degree in political science from California Lutheran University and is Chairman of the Log Cabin Republicans of California.
Donald Trump Has Done Far More For Gay People Than The Stonewall Democrats Stonewall Democrats don’t want you to know gay Republicans exist. But we do, our ideas are better than theirs, and we’re not going anywhere. By Joshua Herr October 11, 2019 There is no easier way to make the left mad than being a gay Republican. This time, it’s the Stonewall Democratic Club that’s up in arms. Stonewall is a group of LGBT Democrats who purport to champion “equality for all.” You wouldn’t know this from their record. Bill Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) and Don’t Ask Don’t Tell (DADT) during his first term. These acts outlawed gay marriage and military service for openly LGBT soldiers, respectively. It took 20 years to undo that codified discrimination. But Stonewall endorsed Clinton for reelection in 1996 anyway. Barack Obama ran for president in 2008 opposing gay marriage. Stonewall endorsed him nonetheless. From 2008 to 2010, although Democrats controlled both the White House and Congress, Obama did nothing to advance LGBT equality. Stonewall endorsed him again in 2012. Recently, the Stonewall Democrats of San Antonio terrorized a Hispanic gay Republican running for Congress in Texas, threatening “economic sanctions” against the gay nightclub he owns unless he leaves the race. Despite this shameful history, Stonewall’s Ryan Basham recently wrote an article condemning the Log Cabin Republicans for endorsing Donald Trump. We at Log Cabin represent LGBT conservatives and allies. Our endorsement is the latest addition to a record that is actually far superior to Stonewall’s. Log Cabin’s Better Record on Gay Issues While Stonewall was cheerleading Obama’s do-nothing Democrats, Log Cabin sued the government to kill DADT. In 2010, Log Cabin won an injunction preventing the administration from enforcing DADT. Only after fighting that injunction, and losing, did Obama finally repeal the law. Log Cabin has also withheld its endorsement from high-profile Republican candidates who opposed marriage equality — unlike Stonewall, we resist partisan groupthink, even when it costs us. We wouldn’t be endorsing President Trump in 2020 if he weren’t truly an ally. Trump openly supported LGBT equality before any of Stonewall’s endorsees did. In 1999, while Democrats defended DADT, Trump opined that gays and lesbians serving openly was “not something that would disturb me.” In 2000, Trump proposed an amendment of civil rights law to ban discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, which would have rendered moot the employment discrimination case currently before the Supreme Court. In 2015, though Trump needed religious conservative votes to win the Republican primary, he nevertheless stated publicly that religious freedom and LGBT rights are not “mutually exclusive.” He even rebuked his running mate-to-be, Mike Pence, for initially undervaluing LGBT interests in Indiana’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act, on which Pence ultimately reversed. Today, President Trump still has our back. Stonewall Incorrectly Attacks President Trump Stonewall’s article censures Russia for orchestrating “an industrial-scale genocide of gay men” in Chechnya. Russia’s behavior is indeed alarming. So President Trump, collaborating with his (gay) Ambassador to Germany Richard Grenell, has launched a historic initiative to decriminalize homosexuality worldwide. Basham conveniently omits this fact. (Incidentally, our Los Angeles chapter dedicated Pride Month in 2018 to raising awareness and money for Rainbow Railroad, a nonprofit that rescues gay men from Chechnya. Stonewall used its Pride booth that year to promote itself.) Stonewall calls Trump’s plan to reduce HIV/AIDS transmission by 90 percent within 10 years “lip service” because HIV+ immigrants crossing the U.S.-Mexico border are separated from other immigrants. But this policy is intended to provide HIV+ immigrants, some of whom face untreated AIDS, with needed medical care. Stonewall also neglects to mention that Trump’s budget included $291 million to fight HIV in 2020 alone. Trump also convinced the antiviral research group Gilead to donate billions of dollars of HIV prevention medication for 200,000 people. That is hardly lip service. Stonewall further insinuates, ludicrously, that Trump is bigoted for halting Obama-era attempts to tell public schools which bathroom transgender students can use. We say, good: The well-being of children who do not identify with their biological sex is vitally important, but it does not fall under the originally intended purview of Title IX and would thus be better explored at the state and local level without federal intervention. Executive overreach in the name of LGBT rights does nothing to recommend our cause. Nor is attacking religious freedom, as Basham does, a good look for gays. We will get nowhere by forcing religious people to bake cakes for our weddings. The majority of LGBT people are religious themselves — Log Cabin therefore supports the First Amendment because religious rights are LGBT rights. Many Trump Supporters Are LGBT So Stonewall is wrong. But something more important is going on here. What really infuriates Basham is that Log Cabin has “given cover” for the president’s claim that “some of [his] biggest supporters” are LGBT. As if saying so were a crime Trump commits in secrecy while his fabulous gay accomplices at Log Cabin run interference. But it’s just a fact: Many of Trump’s most fervent supporters are LGBT people. Left-wing gay activists, however, depend on creating the impression that all LGBT people are Democrats. Democrats then use this false narrative to consolidate unearned moral authority. That is why, when the prominent gay billionaire Peter Thiel expressed support for Trump, The Advocate promptly ran a piece arguing he isn’t actually gay — he just has sex with men. (Really. They did that. Look it up.) The point of such chicanery is to insinuate that all Republicans are homophobes, and all homophobes are Republicans. That only works if Democrats speak for all gays. So just one prominent gay or trans Republican punctures the lie that the left has a monopoly on gay rights. Log Cabin Republicans stand to disabuse the public of that lie. The Stonewall Democrats don’t want you to know we exist. But we do, our ideas are better than theirs, and we’re not going anywhere. Joshua Herr is an attorney, former State Department intern for the U.S. Mission to Germany, and President of the Log Cabin Republicans of Los Angeles.
I know some. Also have you heard of the walkaway campaign? People are individuals, race, orientation, world view, religion, it doesnt matter just because you can give someone a label doesnt mean that makes everyone with that label the same.
