yea. Grant would average more points a game than kenyon if he had kiddo n his side. much higher career field goal percentage
I guess I have to set a couple of things straight. I don't think (and never thought) K-mart is a superstar. I don't think he deserves the $87 million he's asking for. I'm certainly not a K-mart fanatic, I don't wear K-mart jerseys, I don't have his posters on my wall and I don't use his picture as an avatar. I know there are better players in both the east and west. But yes, I defend him because I like his style of play, the energy he brings into the game, and I don't like it when people describe him as a worthless player, like some on this forum do all the time. There might be some good argumentation, but I also see a lot of flaws in it, just based on biased opinions. That's the reason why I posted the efficiency rating, which is officially used by the NBA, so it probably means something right? Ofcourse I know it doesn't say everything about a player, but it certainly tells something about his consistency. The formula used to calculate the efficiency rating is pretty legitimate, it covers all aspects of the game, so it beats looking at just rebounding and scoring. The differences in the 16-17-18 group are very small, so they are arguable. What I don't get is why Eddy Curry, Al Harrington and Jonathan Bender would be superior over K-mart. Some say they have a better upside, but that's arguable, because you don't know what they are gonna do next year. I would like to understand how they were better last year when K-mart had much better numbers. I also don't understand why a lot of people almost blame K-mart for taking passes from Jason Kidd, like that would make him a worse player. Earlier in this thread was proved by MikeTodd that K-mart can do it on his own, even putting up better-than-average numbers when Kidd was not playing. Then some said that he could not do it consistently, but how do you know that? K-mart never had to play without JK consistently, so he never was able to prove what he can do. Those 2 games could be a sign of what he really can do! But no, that was declared as an incident, according to some people he will never be able to do that. But those are the same people who judge K-mart on his 2 bad games in the Finals, forgetting that he had a very good offseason this year, outplaying some people and getting numbers above his season average. All in all, it's just how you WANT to see it. Some people just don't like the guy, no matter what kinda numbers he's putting up. They use the fact that he's never made the all star team as an argument that he's not a good player, but probably will say that he didn't deserve it when he makes it.... To me, K-mart is a top25 player in the east, but that's my opinion, nobody has to agree with me. I'm impressed what he's done so far, but I know he has to improve to be a real thread in the NBA. For what I know, but I don't know him personally, he's working on his game, trying to improve. I'm pretty sure his numbers will go up next season, seeing what he's done so far. Ow.. almost forgot.. to Oldskool, if you think my English is at a the level of a fourth grader, why not argue with me in my native language, which is Dutch?
First off Eddy Curry, Al Harrington, and Jonathan Bender all made the leap to the NBA straight out of college. K-Mart played 4 years at a powerhouse college, Cincy, and his fundamentals are still worse than those 3 players. Eddy Curry already has great footwork in his post up game and some of the softest hands for a big man, and he's only 20 years old! K-Mart is 5 years older and does not have the post up skills of Curry. The game that really solidified Curry's presence in the NBA is when he took it to Shaq and the Lakers in an impessive 116-99 victory. He didn't hold back and completely out worked Shaq in the game. Al Harrington is a much better skilled player than K-Mart. Injuries have set him back a little, and playing on deep team, we have not seen what Al is capable of doing with minutes as a starter. However, he's already drawing comparisons to Scottie Pippen for his perimeter defense and ability to play smaller players. He can score and create his own shots, which K-Mart cannot do. Al can actually put the ball on the floor and penetrate by dribbling and not relying on running someone over. K-Mart has one move, a weak spin move. Did you see how many times he got swatted by Duncan and D-Rob after he tried using his one move over and over again in the Finals? After seeing it about 2 times Duncan just sat back waited for him to spin and then pinned his shot against the glass. Jonathan Bender is another athletic player who stands at 7 feet tall and is only 22. He has a variety of moves including a solid 3pt shot. He's been very patient playing behind JO, and Al Harrington, but with the departure of Brad Miller, he's going to explode this season. Bender is a smooth player and anytime a 7 footer can step behind the arc and hit 3's you have to just drool over the possibilities. It's no fluke each of these players made the jump from high school and are still in the league. If they were not talented they would be playing overseas or in the NBDL. If you can't see that these 3 players have more talent than K-Mart, you need to spend the time and watch their games.
Shape, what I'm missing in your argumentation is how they are showing and using their talent on a regular basis. I saw that game of Curry vs Shaq, and I was impressed! This guy has a bright future, IF he can do that on a regular basis, game after game, night after night. IMHO he hasn't done that yet, maybe he will coming season, but that's just speculation, not facts. I'm not impressed with Al Harrington yet, but maybe that's because I haven't seen very much of him yet, they don't televise a lot of Pacers games in Europe anymore since Rik Smits left. His numbers so far don't impress me much, but I believe you if you say he can do all those things. He still has to prove something to me, yup you guessed it.. consistancy. We haven't seen almost anything from Bender yet, so to say he's going to be very good is speculation also. They also expected a lot from Kwame Brown, remember? Maybe it's true to say that K-mart does only have 1 offensive move, but I think it's not fair to say it's weak because Tim Duncan was able to swat it a couple of times. TD is arguably the best player in the league at the moment, very smart and a good defender. K-mart had nothing going for him in the last couple of Finals games, and coach Scott should've given him a breather to let him come to rest. If K-mart's moves are so weak, why did he average above 20 ppg in the first 3 rounds of the playoffs?
Well the point is you do not have to see much of these players to realize they have more skill then K-Mart. You will not see consistancy until these players are actual starters in the league, so your point is irrelevent. K-Mart had nothing left in the finals, Scott should have given him a breather? Did you watch the finals, bro? K-Mart gave himself plenty of breathers by getting into foul trouble, committing stupid offensive fouls and reaching in. I think he was sick in one of the games, but talented players can rely on their skills to get them through that, along with a lot IV. However, K-Mart does not have the necessary skills, and because he wasn't able to be energetic, we saw how ineffective a player he really is. How did K-Mart average 20 points in the first 3 rounds of the playoffs? If you go back and look at the play by play gamelogs you will see a majority of his baskets came from assists by his teammates. Which once again proves the point he cannot create his own offense. He tried doing it in the Spurs series and was shutdown time and time again. The Spurs have a great defense, but if K-Mart is a top 25 player in your mind, then he should definately be able to overcome any defense. After all great offense will always be better than great defense.
Ok Martin's skills are still on the rise. He is developing his post moves and already has a couple, a little spin and a small jump hook. They aren't deadly effective right now, but they suffice. Also you just can't put potential players like Bender, and Curry ahead of Martin at this point. That's like saying you would give them the max contract instead of Martin right now. I don't think any of you would do that. Also one other thing that you guys are forgetting is that when Jason Kidd leaves a team, the individual players' statistics always rise (especially in scoring), I don't see why Martin would be the exception. I had a thread on this fact before and had examples, I can try to find a link to it and post it here. *edit* found the link: http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2520
I wouldn't give the max contract to any of those players. Unless you are top 10 player you really don't deserve it. Well individuals might score more, but let's see which individuals you are talking about. And I would bet they are all better than K-Mart and create their own offense. Mashburn, Cliff Robinson, Steve Nash, McDyess, & Marion. All these guys are a lot better players than K-Mart.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting magicfrankie:</div><div class="quote_post"> I saw that game of Curry vs Shaq, and I was impressed! This guy has a bright future, IF he can do that on a regular basis, game after game, night after night. IMHO he hasn't done that yet, maybe he will coming season, but that's just speculation, not facts. </div> his consistancy came in the 2nd half of the season. many say that Kmart's game really improved after the all star game. examples of Curry's consistancy: 24pts vs. Toronto on 10-13 shooting 16pts vs. Atlanta on 6-11 shooting 15pts vs. Washington on 7-13 shooting 24pts vs. Golden State on 10-16 shooting 26pts vs. LA Clippers on 10-15 shooting 20pts vs. LA Lakers on 8-13 shooting 21pts vs. Grizzlies on 9-14 shooting 30pts vs. New York on 12-17 shooting 18pts vs. Detroit on 7-14 shooting 18pts vs. Indiana on 8-13 shooting 24pts vs. Sacramento on 10-14 shooting 28pts vs. Seattle on 12-16 shooting 19pts vs. Philadelphia on 6-10 shooting 20pts vs. Detroit on 8-12 shooting 24pts vs. New Jersey on 9-13 shooting 31pts vs. Philadelphia on 14-16 shooting pretty consistent considering he's out of high school and it's his 2nd year in the league.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Well the point is you do not have to see much of these players to realize they have more skill then K-Mart. You will not see consistancy until these players are actual starters in the league, so your point is irrelevent. </div> Exactly, they aren't starters in the league yet, so how can you say that they are better? K-mart has started every game he played for the Nets. That they have more skill is your opinion, not a fact, you should know that by now. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> How did K-Mart average 20 points in the first 3 rounds of the playoffs? If you go back and look at the play by play gamelogs you will see a majority of his baskets came from assists by his teammates. Which once again proves the point he cannot create his own offense. He tried doing it in the Spurs series and was shutdown time and time again. The Spurs have a great defense, but if K-Mart is a top 25 player in your mind, then he should definately be able to overcome any defense. After all great offense will always be better than great defense.</div> He averaged 22.3 ppg in 6 games vs the Bucks (leading the Nets) He averaged 20.5 ppg in 4 games vs the Celtics (leading the Nets) He averaged 18.5 ppg in 4 games vs the Pistons So he averaged 20.7 ppg in the first 3 rounds of the playoffs He even averaged 19.5 ppg in the first 4 games of the Finals vs the Spurs! He also managed to grab a total of 60 rebounds over the 6 game series, that's 10 rebounds per game vs the Twin Towers. How was he shut down in those first 4 games? If you know a little about coaching you know that when a player is in a slump, you take him out of the game. That's what Scott should've done. K-mart was clearly having trouble getting his shots away, and he was forcing himself, because they kept feeding him the ball, especially in the last game of the series. And yes, there are players who are sick and play heroic games, but those same players also had games where they couldn't overcome their illnesses, but those are the games no one remembers. K-mart chose not to complain about his illness and play games 5 and 6. Was it smart? Probably not, but can you blame him for trying to compete? Think not.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting slamduncan21:</div><div class="quote_post">his consistancy came in the 2nd half of the season. many say that Kmart's game really improved after the all star game. examples of Curry's consistancy: pretty consistent considering he's out of high school and it's his 2nd year in the league.</div> Curry definately had a good 2nd half of the season, now let's see if he can do it in an 82 game season, because that's how many games have to be played in a NBA season nowadays...
That they have more skill is your opinion, not a fact, you should know that by now. And it's your opinion and not fact K-Mart has more skills. We can do this song and dance all day long, but you yourself said you have not watched much of those players, so how can you even argue? Go watch them play and compare them to K-Mart and you will clearly see they have more skills. Having players who can create off the dribble and set you up for good looks is the reason K-Mart gets his points. Did you even read the arguments above before you decided to jump in here again? The point was HE CANNOT CREATE HIS OWN SHOT ... let me say it again and ingrain it into your head ... HE CANNOT CREATE HIS OWN SHOT! He averaged 10 rebs against the Twin Towers. You are obviously impressed by the fact he actually got double digit rebounds in a 6 game stretch. Guess what? It's his damn role to get rebounds, he's a power forward for crying out loud! He should be averaging a double double ALL season long. If you know anything about superstars, they don't slump in must win games! That's what sets them apart from the rest of the players in the league. How was he shut down in those first 4 games? You completely took my words out of context. Once again go back and check the game logs and look at how many times K-Mart was swatted or had his shot altered. That's being SHUTDOWN! Shooting 34.3% as a power forward is being SHUTDOWN! Shooting a series high of 44.4% is being SHUTDOWN!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">And it's your opinion and not fact K-Mart has more skills.</div> K-mart is putting up better numbers consistently, that's a fact. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> The point was HE CANNOT CREATE HIS OWN SHOT ... let me say it again and ingrain it into your head ... HE CANNOT CREATE HIS OWN SHOT! </div> He doesn't need to create his own shot with a player like JKidd by his side. How can you blame him for taking passes of Jason Kidd? But, let's take a closer look at the gamelogs of the 2 games he played without JK last year. On 1/31/2003 he scored 23 points vs the Hornets, making 9 field goals on 4 assists from his teammates. On 2/1/2003 he scored 29 points vs the Pistons, making 11 field goals on 5 assists from his teammates. So he created 11 of 20 shots HIMSELF, and he also had 9 assists himself. That's not bad for a player who CANNOT CREATE HIS OWN SHOT, isn't it? Oh, and by the way... the Pistons have one of the best defenses in the league... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> You are obviously impressed by the fact he actually got double digit rebounds in a 6 game stretch. Guess what? It's his damn role to get rebounds, he's a power forward for crying out loud! He should be averaging a double double ALL season long. </div> I think he did a really good job rebounding versus Robinson and Duncan. And yes, it's his job, he did good, so what's the problem? With a little improvement he WILL average a double-double all season long. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> If you know anything about superstars, they don't slump in must win games! That's what sets them apart from the rest of the players in the league. </div> Who called K-mart a superstar? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> You completely took my words out of context. Once again go back and check the game logs and look at how many times K-Mart was swatted or had his shot altered. That's being SHUTDOWN! Shooting 34.3% as a power forward is being SHUTDOWN! Shooting a series high of 44.4% is being SHUTDOWN!</div> I'm sorry, but when a player averages 19.5 ppg (I'm talking first 4 games)I don't call it being shutdown. Especially not when he's averaging 16.7 ppg and .470% over the season.
thanks for proving my point, half his field goals came from his teammates. and a few came from offensive putbacks and fast breaks. care to try again? if he is asking for the max then he definately thinks he is a superstar. "K-mart is putting up better numbers consistently, that's a fact." so are the other 3 players so what's your point? scoring 19 points on terrible field goal % (42%) is being shutdown. why is that hard for you to understand? 24 shots to score 20 points and ONLY 1 of 2 free throws made (21 total points) 16 shots to score 12 points and ONLY 2 of 2 free throws (14 total points) 18 shots to score 16 points and 7 out 8 free throws made (23 total points) **his best game of the series** 16 shots to score 14 points and 6 out of 12 free throws made (20 total points) what's all that equate to? SHUTDOWN! pathetic numbers for any big man to put up.
"I think he did a really good job rebounding versus Robinson and Duncan. And yes, it's his job, he did good, so what's the problem? With a little improvement he WILL average a double-double all season long." I have no problem, but unlike you it does not impress either because he should be getting 10+ boards per game as the starting power forward, especially with NO LEGIT CENTER. And are you sure he's going to average a double double? He couldn't even average one playing 4 years in college, and jumping from 8.3 boards to 10.0 boards is a huge jump. Assuming he plays all 82 games he will need to grab an additional 140 boards to average 10rpg. With the addition of Zo, he might even average less boards then he did this season. shooting 47% field goal is not good for a power foward. he ranked 28th in field goal percentage, behind keith van horn, ROOKIE amare stoudemire. for a guard 47% is decent, but for an inside player, that's terrible!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">"I think he did a really good job rebounding versus Robinson and Duncan. And yes, it's his job, he did good, so what's the problem? With a little improvement he WILL average a double-double all season long." I have no problem, but unlike you it does not impress either because he should be getting 10+ boards per game as the starting power forward, especially with NO LEGIT CENTER. And are you sure he's going to average a double double? He couldn't even average one playing 4 years in college, and jumping from 8.3 boards to 10.0 boards is a huge jump. Assuming he plays all 82 games he will need to grab an additional 140 boards to average 10rpg. With the addition of Zo, he might even average less boards then he did this season. shooting 47% field goal is not good for a power foward. he ranked 28th in field goal percentage, behind keith van horn, ROOKIE amare stoudemire. for a guard 47% is decent, but for an inside player, that's terrible!</div> Take into account all the easy opportunities he gets from Kidd(dunks), easy putbacks, and that FG% is even lower. He gets more easy looks as a result of Kidd's brilliant play. Its not his fault....... But Kmart is not a good enough player to be coming anywhere near the contract demands he is asking, and will undoubtedly be getting..... Thats the long and short of it.
Wow, 7 pages on this............. This is a hot topic........If you are just seeing this for the first time, please read thru all the pages.....there are some good arguements going back and forth.........then post with your opinions/thoughts.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I have no problem, but unlike you it does not impress either because he should be getting 10+ boards per game as the starting power forward, especially with NO LEGIT CENTER. And are you sure he's going to average a double double? He couldn't even average one playing 4 years in college, and jumping from 8.3 boards to 10.0 boards is a huge jump. Assuming he plays all 82 games he will need to grab an additional 140 boards to average 10rpg. With the addition of Zo, he might even average less boards then he did this season. shooting 47% field goal is not good for a power foward. he ranked 28th in field goal percentage, behind keith van horn, ROOKIE amare stoudemire. for a guard 47% is decent, but for an inside player, that's terrible!</div> The Nets had no legit center, but were still tenth in the league in total rebounding as was mentioned earlier in the thread. That means that they have a lot more well rounded players on their team in terms of rebounds so he doesn't have to do as much work. Either way it's not like eight rebounds is a bad thing. I think getting aroung 9 to 9.5 should be plenty. Also, a lot of players in the NBA average better than what they did in college because in college they were on powerhouse teams where one player couldn't afford to boost his stats. That goes especially to Martin also since he was on the number one team in the country his senior year so it isn't impossible to get a double double. For a player like Kenyon it is very possible to reach the plateau of ten boards, but I see 9 to 9.5 more realistic. About FG%, Eddy Curry led the league in FG%, does that make the other PFs/Cs any worse than him? Amare is another player that scored a lot of his points off dunks and layups and has ONLY a 45-47 FG%, does that make him any worse?
Ok another person focusing on numbers and I will have to explain the obvious once again. First off, I wanted to emphasize to magicfrankie, that K-Mart has never been able to average 10rpg, including college. Yes he was on the number one team and yes there was a lot of talent on the team. However, there is even more talent on the Nets and in the NBA, which will make it even harder for him to get to double digits. He couldn't get it done then and I don't think he can get it done now. Just because the Nets ranked 10th in rebounds despite K-Mart only averaging a little over 8 could also mean his teammates are forced to rebound more because of his inability to carry the burden himself. Obviously a player is not ranked by their field goal % and I think you are knit picking just like MagicFrankie does and twisting my words around. Anyway you want to look at it, 47% for a big man who spends time in the post is not a good number, especially a player who has been in the league longer than both Curry and Amare, and has 4 years of college experience. Both Curry and Amare had higher field goal percentages than this self proclaimed "superstar." Kenyon is improving, but how much better can he get? And when all is said and done, is he really going to be better than Curry, Amare, Bender, or Harrington? I don't think he will. And for the ridiculous argument about his numbers without Kidd in 2 GAMES. So based on those numbers, is K-Mart a better player without Kidd? Obviously he isn't. See how stupid that sounds.
shape has made some great points in this thread. 47% is not good for a power forward who spends most of his time in the post unless he's ginving something else significant to the team. You people who STILLL think he can make his own shot just need to get a clue. weve explained it every way we can. TWO good games does NOT prove that. U tell us not to "blame" him for getting great looks from Kidd. were NOT but you guys are getting duped. just WHATCH him play when not in transition and when kidd doesnt get him an open look. he CANT do it consistantly. His field goal percentage is pretty low even playing most of the time WITH Kidd. it would be embarrasing without all the fast breaks and fancy dishes. EVEN though he would have a few good games here and there.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post"> Kenyon is improving, but how much better can he get? And when all is said and done, is he really going to be better than Curry, Amare, Bender, or Harrington? I don't think he will. </div> I think he will. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> And for the ridiculous argument about his numbers without Kidd in 2 GAMES. So based on those numbers, is K-Mart a better player without Kidd? Obviously he isn't. See how stupid that sounds.</div> [/quote] I didn't say he's a better player without Kidd, please read again. Since almost every game he plays with Kidd, it's hard to say what would happen if he didn't play with Kidd. Last season he played 2 games without Kidd, and he did put up pretty decent numbers. We clearly have different opinions about being shutdown. To me, K-mart was shutdown on offense in game 5 and 6, where had his worst games of the season. I don't think he can be judged on just those 2 games. In the other 4 games he averaged more points and more rebounds than he did during the season, while playing versus the best PF in the league. His shot % went down a little, but is that so strange? We all know Duncan does that to anyone, no exceptions. But let me give you an example of what shutdown means in my book: Celtics vs Nets, 2nd round playoffs, Antoine Walker vs K-mart Walker averaged 20.1 ppg on .388% during the season, while in that series he averaged 14.0 ppg on .343% shooting. That's SHUTDOWN! His numbers were well below his season averages, do you see the differences? How do you call this if you say K-mart was shutdown with his above-average games?
