<div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post">shape has made some great points in this thread. 47% is not good for a power forward who spends most of his time in the post unless he's ginving something else significant to the team. You people who STILLL think he can make his own shot just need to get a clue. weve explained it every way we can. TWO good games does NOT prove that. U tell us not to "blame" him for getting great looks from Kidd. were NOT but you guys are getting duped. just WHATCH him play when not in transition and when kidd doesnt get him an open look. he CANT do it consistantly. His field goal percentage is pretty low even playing most of the time WITH Kidd. it would be embarrasing without all the fast breaks and fancy dishes. EVEN though he would have a few good games here and there.</div> What's your point? You're just re-writing what Shape already said, no extra argumentation.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Ok another person focusing on numbers and I will have to explain the obvious once again. First off, I wanted to emphasize to magicfrankie, that K-Mart has never been able to average 10rpg, including college. Yes he was on the number one team and yes there was a lot of talent on the team. However, there is even more talent on the Nets and in the NBA, which will make it even harder for him to get to double digits. He couldn't get it done then and I don't think he can get it done now.</div> why not? you said yourself hes improving, why cant he pull down an extra 1.8 boards a game over the course of the next few seasons? with his athleticism and hops, i dont see one reason why he cant improve by that much. even if he doesnt, 8 or 9 boards is a pretty good number to average for a season, good enough to put him in the top ten in the league, i can live with that. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Just because the Nets ranked 10th in rebounds despite K-Mart only averaging a little over 8 could also mean his teammates are forced to rebound more because of his inability to carry the burden himself.</div> again, your making it sound like 8 rpg isnt very good. its not GREAT like what ben wallace brings down, but its decent, certainly not worth mentioning as a fault...which is what im getting the impression here. maybe im wrong, but i just get the feeling that your talkin down about his rebounding, as if 8 boards a game is bad. hes only a couple boards a game away from double digits, is 2 more rebounds a game THAT much more, that it propells him from mediocrity to good rebounding? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Kenyon is improving, but how much better can he get? And when all is said and done, is he really going to be better than Curry, Amare, Bender, or Harrington? I don't think he will.</div> how much better can he get? id say a whole lot better, why not? i think he already is better than bender, harrington and curry. id much rather have him on my team then any of those guys. amare, id rather have, younger, equal or more athletic...but imo, hes better then bender, curry or harrington. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> And for the ridiculous argument about his numbers without Kidd in 2 GAMES. So based on those numbers, is K-Mart a better player without Kidd? Obviously he isn't. See how stupid that sounds.</div> i for one would never make that argument, kidd makes people better, thats his game. i think that because kmart is playing with kidd, hell become a better player then you think he will...it helps playing the game with someone like kidd, and i think that adds to his potential. do i think hes worth the max right now? no, but i think hes worth holding onto...but all that aside, if you like the game of basketball, you gotta love the way kmart plays, lots of intensity, lots of dunks (yes set up by kidd often) and dunks with mad thunder, plays good hard defence, i love his game
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post">why not? you said yourself hes improving, why cant he pull down an extra 1.8 boards a game over the course of the next few seasons? with his athleticism and hops, i dont see one reason why he cant improve by that much. even if he doesnt, 8 or 9 boards is a pretty good number to average for a season, good enough to put him in the top ten in the league, i can live with that. again, your making it sound like 8 rpg isnt very good. its not GREAT like what ben wallace brings down, but its decent, certainly not worth mentioning as a fault...which is what im getting the impression here. maybe im wrong, but i just get the feeling that your talkin down about his rebounding, as if 8 boards a game is bad. hes only a couple boards a game away from double digits, is 2 more rebounds a game THAT much more, that it propells him from mediocrity to good rebounding? </div> It IS a fault when youre trying to argue he's one of the top 25 players in the east and deserves a max contract. 1.8 is a lot to improve whne hes never done that his whole career including college and this year hes going to be playing with deke and zo. if anything his rebound numbers will go down. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">how much better can he get? id say a whole lot better, why not? i think he already is better than bender, harrington and curry. id much rather have him on my team then any of those guys. amare, id rather have, younger, equal or more athletic...but imo, hes better then bender, curry or harrington. {/QUOTE] Im sorry but all those guys are better basketball players than kenyon martin even if they dont play as much. the things they do they do on their own terms unlike martin.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post">It IS a fault when youre trying to argue he's one of the top 25 players in the east and deserves a max contract. 1.8 is a lot to improve whne hes never done that his whole career including college and this year hes going to be playing with deke and zo. if anything his rebound numbers will go down.</div> agreed, his board numbers will go down with zo and deke, but i dont think that says anything about his skill as a rebounder. again, id have to say even if your arguing hes a top 25 player in the east...its still decent numbers...more than antoine pulls down a game. im not comparing him, im just saying that its a decent amount of boards, no matter what the situation, i dont know why 8 rpg is being argued as a bad number, i cant see how it isnt decent...i never said its a GREAT number, i said its decent/good...and it is. regardless of the situation or the scenerio you try to come up with, his number is 8.2 a game if you or anyone else is going to argue that that is not a good number, then your entitled to that opinion, my opinion is that its a decent avg. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> actually Kmart turrns off a lot of fans with his arrogance and now his greed (87 MILLION...yea right truly he is a player caught up in his own hype and yes kidd makes him better in the short term but he's already done as much as he can for Martin. stop saying we only havve 2 games evidnece of kmart playing without kidd. i know that but it doesnt matter. u can whatch him play. in situations where kidd isnt running the fast break or gettting him an open look Kmart is NOT a dependable scorer and hasnt shown anything to make u think he will be.</div> what do you mean stop saying we only have 2 games evidence? where did i say that once? where have i called him a dependable scorer? i dont think iv said either of those things, all iv ever said is that i love watching k mart play and i think he has lots of potential and a bright future, thats my opinion, and of all the young atheletic players with a load of potential...i dont see why some people think k mart isnt going to develop. hes not known as one of those players who hardly works on his game, hes steadily gotten better every year, and i see no reason why he wont continue to improve. i also agreed that i dont think hes worth the max, but i also agree with vintage that its prolly his agents idea to use that as a barganing tool, and im sure he went along with it. you say "yea right the max lol" like somehow im trying to support the claim that hes worth it, read my post man, i said i DONT think hes worth it. for some reason your arguing things that i didnt even say or think
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">no 2nd option deserves this kind of money</div> Sorry if this is old, but what about Kobe..Grant Hill (healthy)
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post">agreed, his board numbers will go down with zo and deke, but i dont think that says anything about his skill as a rebounder. again, id have to say even if your arguing hes a top 25 player in the east...its still decent numbers...more than antoine pulls down a game. im not comparing him, im just saying that its a decent amount of boards, no matter what the situation, i dont know why 8 rpg is being argued as a bad number, i cant see how it isnt decent...i never said its a GREAT number, i said its decent/good...and it is. regardless of the situation or the scenerio you try to come up with, his number is 8.2 a game if you or anyone else is going to argue that that is not a good number, then your entitled to that opinion, my opinion is that its a decent avg.</div> again, its decent for a regular roleplayer. but it is NOT when ur argueing hes a top 25 player unless he brings something else very significant to the table (like say, antoine walker does with his versatillity, his leadership, and DEPENDABLE scoring)
yea...good point, although i think he brings lots to the table too, tough perimiter and 1on1 D, runs the floor really well, very athletic and can cause mismatch problems, with is first step and mid range game. i dunno...maybe we can agree that you see more of his faults than i do since you dont like him, and i see more of the positives in his game since i do like him?
dj_premium_plus i am not arguing who would you rather have, i'm arguing on a basketball skill basis K-Mart is not in the top 25 in the East. He's athletic and strong, but he does not have the fundamentals or creativity, which in my mind makes him inferior and places him out of the top 25. Let me give you an analogy. Let's take Devean George & Kobe Bryant. Devean George is a tremendous athlete, he's stronger, faster, and can jump higher than Kobe. He's actually one of the strongest players on the Lakers and excels in all the physical drills they do. However, when it comes to being able to play the game, he is far behind Kobe. The difference is Kobe is more fluid and has much better body control than Devean George. Kobe might not be as fast, as strong, or jump as high, but he has the body control and creativity to score and maximize his own athleticism. What Devean lacks, is exactly what I see lacking in K-Mart's game, fundamentals & creativity. In order for K-Mart to be a superstar or even top 25, he needs to learn how to maximize his natural ability. He has a horrible jumpshot and he doesn't have control when he tries to post up. Is he getting better, yes, will he improve, yes, but the question I asked is, will he improve more than those young players who have 5 years to catch him?
thats a good point. Kenyon Martin lacks fundamentals and creativity. when young players like him have decent success u can usually use that to predict whos going to improve significantly and who will not. Kmart has gotten as good as he will be. its not unheard of for a player to peak in his 3rd year like Kmart especially when they are so dependant on another player
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting STCBBall3:</div><div class="quote_post">Sorry if this is old, but what about Kobe..Grant Hill (healthy)</div> Not quiet the same....
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting STCBBall3:</div><div class="quote_post">Sorry if this is old, but what about Kobe..Grant Hill (healthy)</div> Difference is Kobe is a top 5 player in the league. Martin isn't even top 25. At the time, Hill was one of the league's best players as well. Completely different circumstances.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">dj_premium_plus i am not arguing who would you rather have, i'm arguing on a basketball skill basis K-Mart is not in the top 25 in the East. He's athletic and strong, but he does not have the fundamentals or creativity, which in my mind makes him inferior and places him out of the top 25. Let me give you an analogy. Let's take Devean George & Kobe Bryant. Devean George is a tremendous athlete, he's stronger, faster, and can jump higher than Kobe. He's actually one of the strongest players on the Lakers and excels in all the physical drills they do. However, when it comes to being able to play the game, he is far behind Kobe. The difference is Kobe is more fluid and has much better body control than Devean George. Kobe might not be as fast, as strong, or jump as high, but he has the body control and creativity to score and maximize his own athleticism. What Devean lacks, is exactly what I see lacking in K-Mart's game, fundamentals & creativity. In order for K-Mart to be a superstar or even top 25, he needs to learn how to maximize his natural ability. He has a horrible jumpshot and he doesn't have control when he tries to post up. Is he getting better, yes, will he improve, yes, but the question I asked is, will he improve more than those young players who have 5 years to catch him?</div> good point, except i dont think george has the hops that kobe has, i think kobe can jump higher...iv seen kobe take off, and the guy can soar, im actually surprised you think that, but i agree george is stronger, its a good comparison, and i agree to an extent. on the fundamental tip, fundamentals arent necessary for success, id hardly call iverson a fundamental player, or ricky davis, but they can get the job done. im not comparing them to k mart, im just pointing out that k mart doesnt need to develop much in the way of fundamentals to come into his own and become a premier player. creativity i agree he lacks, and i think that is something he will need to develop and i think he will. i mean, there is absolutely NO pump faking in k marts game, and you can bet your bottom dollar that hes going to go right almost everytime. i think he will develop into a decent scorer, i dont think hell ever dominate, but when i see him play i see a desire to win and a truck load of potential...those combined is a recipe for success. well have to see what happens this year, ill either be made to eat my words, or ill drop a big "i told you so" post lol. either way, i never said that i actually think he IS a top 25 player, im kind of undecided, i do think hes better than some of the people on your list...but either way, my argument all along is just that i really like his game, i like him as a player, i think hes fun to watch.
fair enough, i understand you like him and his game, but i'm glad to see you are not overly biased and realize he is not worth a max contract and might not even be a top 25 player. iverson and ricky davis's enormous creativity make up for their lack of fundamentals. something K-mart has neither of. and yes devean can actually jump higher than kobe. kobe has not fully adjusted to his new size and he's lost a little of his hangtime. of course on any given day kobe could be the better jumper, but overall devean gets higher.
i dunno...did you see that game, late in the season, lake show at phoenix, kobe steals the ball, and throws down a huge dunk with shaq right by the rim, and nobody really around? member that? iv never seen george jump that high, ever! that was huge.
of course i remember! i watch every laker game at least 2 times. but we are not discussing kobe or george in this topic, and like i said on any day it can go either way. but we can all agree k-mart is not deserving of the max!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">of course i remember! i watch every laker game at least 2 times. but we are not discussing kobe or george in this topic, and like i said on any day it can go either way. but we can all agree k-mart is not deserving of the max!</div> 8 pages if this........this is great! I agree, he is not deservinf the max. In reality, he shouldn't be paid more than Ben Wallace's $5.5 million he is due to make this year, his $6 million he is due the following year, and his $6.5 million the next........... But the fact of the matter is, Martin's extension will be at or near the $65-$70 million area, earning him somewhere near $9 million his first year of his extension.
Im not so sure thats a fact. maybe if he was playing for a major market it team who was banging out the stadium every night but they arent goin to just shell out the megadollars haphazardly. their money could be so much better spent
Wow.. finally, after 8(!!) pages of heated discussions there is some understanding of eachothers points here! Shape, I agree (to an extend) with some of the points you made in your last couple of posts, like the one where you said 'he needs to learn how to maximize his natural ability', that's very well put! I do think he will be able to improve himself, but there's always a possibility he won't, just as there is a possibility other players won't improve their game. I totally agree on the statement that he's not worth the max money (I've stated that before), I only see this as a negotiation strategy. It might look greedy, but it's a business, so why not try? Is he a top25 player in the east or not? To me he might be, but that's just my opinion, nobody has to agree with me. I like his style of play, the energy he brings to the court, but I also see the errors he's making. I was cursing at my TV screen during game 6 because of the stupid decisions he was making, not that it really helped... I understand there will always be people who are criticising him, I just hope they will also see some of the good things he does on the court, because I certainly think he deserves that.
