http://www.sportstwo.com/threads/its-time-for-cj-mccollum-to-go.350605/page-11 Wow it’s almost like someone told all of you that CJ should not be traded because he was just in a slump. Won’t hold my breathe for the apologies for mocking me for 11 thread pages. I noticed the deleted comments btw
Two weeks ago most of this forum and arguably most of the blazer fan base turned on CJ, just months after he was setting franchise records in the playoffs, and wanted to trade him so we could start a 19 year old with ~150 total minutes in the NBA. We will never go anywhere with this lack of loyalty and lack of appreciation. The blazer fan base treats its players like crap sometimes. You don’t see this happening on elite teams (golden state, the spurs) after a player slumps. You see the fans offering support and encouragement. CJ isn’t going to forget that next time he has to make a decision who to play for. Aldridge didn’t forget either. And everyone sees what we did to Roy. Is it really a wonder why free agents aren’t more anxious to play here?
obviously, everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but if somebody's opinion completely disregards any sense of logic or math, that opinion can certainly be challenged, which is what Bones did essentially, what you just said was that with Collins, Portland would/could have a 15-5 record instead of an 8-12 record. So then Collins would be responsible for 7 more wins, 20 games into the season. That simply defies logic last season, Colling played in 77 games and his total winshares was 2.9. His RPM wins mark was 2.11....again, that was over 77 games this season, here are the winshares/48 ranking of the Blazers: Damian Lillard .220 Hassan Whiteside .192 Skal Labissière .129 Rodney Hood .120 CJ McCollum .062 Zach Collins .057 Carmelo Anthony .055 now here are the same people ranked by the number of total winshares: Damian Lillard 3.1 Hassan Whiteside 1.9 Skal Labissière 0.9 Rodney Hood 1.4 CJ McCollum 0.9 Zach Collins 0.1 Carmelo Anthony 0.2 now, I imagine you're going to try and dismiss winshares as a stat because what they show completely defies your opinion, but at least they are worth examining. * Collins had 0.1 winshares in 3 games. Allowing for him playing a little better he'd then have 0.7-0.8 winshares by now. 1/10th of what you give him credit for * you're giving Zach credit for 7 wins which is more than twice as many as Dame has posted. CJ actually has a higher winshare/48 mark than Zach, and he's played in all 20 games, and he has less than 1 winshare. Last season Nurkic had 7.8 winshares in 72 games. So you're basically saying that 22 games of Zach = 70 games of Nurkic * if Collins was worth 7 winshares 20 games into the season, that would give him 28 for the year if he played 80 games. Last season Harden led the NBA in winshares at 15.2 (Dame was 4th at 12.1). Harden had 18.5 RPM wins (Dame 14.52). Paul George led the NBA with 19.86. So yeah, Collins was definitely going to hit 28 this year if he doesn't get injured....(imagine eyes rolling here) I'm sorry, but your assertion does not withstand any scrutiny...and yeah, that's just my opinion, but at least it's grounded in a little reality
Win shares is such an interesting stat to bring into this argument... Its one way to look at it, but its one of those stats I think everyone should take with a grain of salt. I dont know if Zach makes them that much better in terms of oh they win 7 more games, but it does keep them from playing Mario and Tolliver so many minutes, it keeps guys playing their natural roles. The Blazers were literally trotting out a SF at C, and that SF is towards the end even playing his natural position...
Also, CJ is not good for this team. That part is just true. And im not apologizing for that either. Because on that point i know im right.
At one point maybe this guy will understand that CJ's raw numbers aren't the issue a lot of people have with him. I'm not holding my breath though
every single stat can be taken with a grain of salt. But when there's an assertion that: * Zach = 7 wins (opinion) * Dame + Whiteside + CJ + Hood + Simons + Melo + Skal + others = 8 wins (fact) then a stat like winshares seems a lot more grounded in reality
Well... Melo's been here for what 5 games? Whiteside has missed games, Dame's missed games, Hood's missed games... Well, there 8-12 so in 20 games, the only Starter who hasn't missed games yet is CJ, you think if they're all healthy they only have 8 wins? It's possible, but it's also a fact that for what their starters will be for the foreseeable future, they've played a total of 3 games together, and Zach who was a starter only played 3 games total.
I'm not even sure what you are arguing...? let me simplify: somebody said 17 games of Zach would be worth 7 more wins. Meanwhile 18 games of Dame + 20 Games of CJ + 17 games of Whiteside + 18 games of Hood + 20 games of Simons + 20 games of Skal + 5 games of Melo + 3 games of Zach was only worth 8 wins simply it even further: 17 games of Zach = 7 wins 118 games of all those other guys = 8 wins one of those equations looks like bullshit, and I know what the Blazer record is
Not really arguing anything other than that no one thinks that simply zachs presence = 7 wins. They think that its a team game and that a player’s presence can have a huge impact on the team, and Im making that point by saying if Zach’s healthy you dont see Tolliver playing Center, or starting Nas, or as many minutes from Hezonja. You dont have a bunch of guys new to the team always playing roles they werent never meant to play. Does that mean the team wins 7 more? No probably not, but a culmination of all those things could and probably would have given them an extra win or two. You think Tristan Thomspon goes off on Zach, or even Whiteside? You’re right every statistic can be taken with a grain of salt, and WS’s has its value, but I think pretending like his opinion is based in fantasy and yours in reality when neither of you have any idea what happens to the Blazers “if” his shoulder doesnt pop out. Yeah you have some good data for talking points but, you’re both just guessing.
