McGrady and Dampier as Grizzlies?

First of all, this would only work as a sign-and-trade since Stromile Swift is a Free-Agent.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">How about this scenario? The Magic get the size they desperately need, and a starting PG.</div>

The Magic would actually get hurt capwise, because Jason Williams is signed for quite a few more years on a contract that's bigger than he desirves while Stromile Swift is a Free Agent who will be recieving a new long contract. Also, McGrady is causing a stirr in the media, but I don't think he's a true problem with the organization right now. Their only true problem is winning, and dealing Swift, Gasol, and Williams for McGrady won't really help them win in either the short; just maybe the long term.

Also, Swift isn't much of a post presence. It's true that he plays Center, but I wouldn't count on much longevity from him at that position; even in the East. When you look at it that way, you have to consider him a Power Forward; however, that'd just make him one of many Power Forwards the Magic have that are tweeners who can't play Center for extended periods of time. Also when you add Stromile's laziness and drug addiction possibilities, he doesn't seem like the ideal choice for one third of a Tracy McGrady trade.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">JWill has a fanbase in Florida already, and will sell tickets for them.</div>

That's a good point; he even owns a house in Orlando (in the same subdivision as Shaq and Tiger Woods). Jason Williams is a great point guard, but just like Swift I don't think the Magic need him. There's no telling how that team would mesh chemistry wise, but they already have Tyronne Lue and drafted Reece Gaines just outside the lottery. Those two players look like their plan for the future. Jason Williams isn't needed.

The only thing positive about the trade is Pau Gasol. Do the Magic really need another Power Forward? They'd have four or five starting-worthy power forwards who have potential if they do this deal.

Anyway, if you'd sub Jason Williams for Bonzi Wells it would make a world of difference. With McGrady on the Grizzlies, Wells would only be a distraction. I'd like to see Jason Williams go, but not in a trade structured like this.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">JWill has a fanbase in Florida already, and will sell tickets for them.</div>

Not as many as Tracy McGrady will sell for them.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Swift will definitely have to be a sign and trade to make the deal work. My view on Swift is he is one of those players who needs a change of environment and a fresh start. He's been very inconsistent throughout his career, but he's shown flashes of what he's capable of. I think he's more than capable of playing center in Orlando and they would be able to have a lot of versatility in the front court with Swift, Gasol, Howard, and Gooden. This would give the Magic depth at both the 4 and 5 and the flexibility to play a big lineup or small ball depending on where they insert Drew Gooden. The bottomline, is Swift is far better than what they had the last couple of seasons.</div>

Why does everyone think Stromile Swift will turn things around? Everyone's been hoping for that to happen for the last four years. He is 6-9 and will be thrown around in the post like a ragdoll if the Magic choose to start him all season at Center. All Stromile basically does is pump the crowd up. He has power dunks, blocks, and even rebounds that get the crowd to their feet every game, so the fans forget the fact that some games he has been on the court for twenty minutes without scoring. In some games Stromile has had over ten turnovers. Stromile also has stone hands, because everytime a player passes him the ball it goes right through his hands. Stromile was the second choice overall in the 2000 Draft. He should at least have a starting role right now if he were like other second overall choices. However, Stromile was the second best prospect in the weakest draft in NBA history. Stromile also plays in sperts. He is far from consistant. He said in an interview last year that the reason for his inconsistancy was simply the fact that some days he just doesn't feel like playing (cough) *pot* (cough). This could also be translated into the fact that he has no motivation and a weak work ethic. You can't teach that. I remember Jason Williams was that way before he came to Memphis. Hubie got a hold of him and he has become quite the polished player, but that work ethic is still missing (and boy does it show). I hoped that Stromile could have made the same turn around. Hubie seemed to be getting to Stromile towards the end of the season, but then he went cold again. In my mind he is no question mark. I am sold on him being an inconsistant backup and nothing more. It's a lot easier to just say that a change in scenery will do him good than it is to acknowledge the fact that he has so many faults that he's almost a lost cause (like Eddie Griffin).

Also, when I see Gooden, Howard, Swift, and Gasol all at Power Forward it scares me. How can you have four power forwards like that on the same team? It just won't work.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Magic already have a player to fill the TMac void, Grant Hill. He's on schedule to return next season, and if he fails again the Magic still have Deshawn Stevenson to start at SG and they have a top pick in this year's draft, who could also help with the scoring. </div>

Grant Hill will come back, but don't expect him to be a superstar or even the best player on the Magic. He's in his mid-thirties and he's been out of action for about two or three years now. He'll be rusty as hell. Deshawn Stevenson is good and all, but he's not someone who can fill McGrady's void.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Magic do have Lue & Gaines, but Jason Williams would be an immediate upgrade at PG. Lue would probably traded away or left unprotected in the expansion draft if JWill was acquired. Also Lue becomes a free agent after next season and I doubt he will be a part of the Magic future. Reece Gaines hasn't had a chance to do anything on the court and the Magic aren't in a position to have to wait on him to mature into a pro PG.</div>

Do the Magic strike you as a team that needs improvement right now or a team that's rebuilding and looking for future success? Jason Williams would be the wrong way to go. Like McGrady, he has no tolerance for loosing. The first two years in Memphis were a living hell with him bitching all the time.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">All those comments are true about Stromile, but there have been players like him throughout the history of the NBA, and a lot of them change their attitude when they get a change in environment. An example from last season is Ricky Davis. He was a cancer for the Cavs, but once he got traded to the Celtics, he changed his ways and even accepted coming off the bench. I just don't think Swift has had a chance to develop his skills in Memphis. He's always had to fight for minutes behind Gasol and Wright, and whenever he got inconsistent he was subjected to the Grizzlie doghouse. Prior to last season, Memphis was an unstable team. They constantly went through coaching and roster changes. These all have a direct impact on a young, raw player like Swift. He needs a new place so he can build his confidence and develop his natural ability. Orlando may or may not be the place, but again, it's better than what they've had the last two season.</div>

Ricky Davis wasa different case; he was just immature, not lazy and not ready to work. Like I said earlier, you can't teach a work ethic. Stromile has had plenty of opportunities to show his stuff. He's been on the team since their Vancouver days, which was before they got Gasol and Wright. He's also started for us for long periods of time. It's not that he isn't getting enough minutes or touches; it's that his laziness and unpredictableness with off the court issues make him inconsistant. There's a chance that he'd turn it around in Orlando, but there's not enough of a chance for a GM to take him in that McGrady deal. Those guys can't just fantasize; they have to look at what a player has done over the years and how he has improved. Swift has shown no signs of improvement.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">As far as Howard, Gasol, Swift, and Gooden all being powerforwards, I would argue Howard or Gasol could easily play SF in the East and Swift would play center. Or Howard could play the 5, Swift the 4, and Gasol the 3, with Gooden & Garrity coming off the bench. These 4 players are all capable of playing multiple positions on the court. Any combo would of these 4 players would be able to compete with Eastern conference teams. Also let's not forget the Magic have a shot at the #1 pick in the draft. With depth in the frontcourt and the possibility of landing Omeka, the Magic can field trade offers and try to get a solid center or another scorer.</div>

You've got the wrong impression of Gasol. When he was coming into the league, a lot of people though he could play small forward. He lasted two games there. That's not his game. He has no range, and he can't defend the quicker perimeter players. He can't play center either. The Grizzlies tried playing him at the center position when Hubie Brown first started coaching the Grizzlies. He was too weak to play against the guys like Brad Miller and Shaq. He's best suited for the power forward position. Putting him anywhere else would make him a liability. Also if I'm not mistaken, the Magic experimented with Howard at Center and had the same problem. If he could play Center, then he would have been playing it at the end of last season. Drew Gooden played 10-15 games for the Grizzlies at small forward, but that was a huge failure as well. On paper the options may look nice, but that'd really be one hell of a stacked lineup. If the Magic get the #1 or #2 pick in this year's draft, then they'll likely have to trade it anyway or trade Howard or Gooden. There is no way that Gooden, Howard, and Okafor could all work together at the same position; just imagine how crowded it would be with Gasol and Swift.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The last time Grant Hill came back from injury he was putting up solid numbers and shot a high percentage from the field. He doesn't have to be a superstar player anymore, with the supporting cast arround him. He will be the playmaker for the team and create easy baskets for the players around him.</div>

I dissagree. If Tracy McGrady is gone, they'll need someone to fill his void and a "solid" player won't be able to do that. Also, you have no idea what Hill will be like now. If he was just a shell of his old self for a few games during his last season, imagine how he's going to be now that he's older, even more crippled, and has been out of the game for a while. He'll be good as in Deshawn Stevenson good, but not good as in Tracy McGrady good.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Absolutely, prior to their disappointing 2003-04 season, the Magic were a strong playoff contender. They would have the talent to get right back into the post-season especially playing in the newly realigned East, where they will find themselves in the Southeast Division with Hawks, Bobcats, Wizards, Hawks, & Heat. Their only competition will be the Miami Heat.</div>

The magic lost the glue that was holding their team together though when they lost Darrell Armstrong. Their chemistry is missing. Adding a punch of power forwards and taking away McGrady won't help that. If the Magic stayed the same, maybe they could make the playoffs next season (although all those teams finished better last season). However, with the new changes they'd only get worse.

 

Yeah if they Grizzlies get Damp they better keep a pure point guard on staff to keep him happy. So Jdub has to stick around.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Gasol might not have worked at SF in Memphis, but the NBA has evolved and the conventional positions don't require the same talents across the board. In Orlando Gasol wouldn't have the burden of shooting from outside. He has a solid perimeter game, and the player who would spread the floor for the Magic is Pat Garrity. I agree he would be a liability on defense, but he's a liability in that department no matter what position he plays. The Magic could always play a Zone defense to compensate for his struggles on defense or play Gooden on the quicker player.</div>

I dissagre about Gasol having a solid outside shot. Sure it's not the same conventional position we're all used to, but it's still a position that requires somewhat of the shooting touch that Gasol doesn't have. He's also not quick enough. His body is suited for the small forward position, but his game is suited for the center position. The conflict of interests results in him playing at power forward. He's doing a great job, and I'd think that Orlando would shift a player's positions based on where Gasol wants to play; not the other way around. Also, my point about the defense was that he would not be able to keep up with the likes of Darius Miles and Latrell Sprewell. He is a defensive liability when he plays power forward, but he's a lot more evenly matched there. If he were to step out into small forward territory on defense, the player he is guarding would murder him time and time again. Your last sentence about Orlando changing to a zone defense to fit Gasol's need concerns me as well. Why should a team change their whole defense just to suit one player? It'd be a lot easier to leave him at power forward. The solution is simple: trade Gasol but not Swift, move (or trade) Howard to Center, and bench (or trade/move) Drew Gooden. The addition of Stromile Swift just makes it overwhelming.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There is talent in Swift, and it's just a matter of the right coach and right situation to get his confidence back and have him playing up to his ability every night. If he really was a bust, he would have been out of the league already. Besides, he's not the main player the Magic would acquire in the deal. Gasol and Williams would be the primary players for T-Mac, and Swift would just be a throw in to close the deal and match the salaries. </div>

That's not true that he'd be out of the league already, because the player he was during his Sophomore year at Louisianna State could make it in the NBA as the mediocre player he is today. That's the whole point; he hasn't improved. He's a bust in the sense that he was the #2 pick overall and hasn't changed since his rookie year. Honestly, I don't see this happening because I don't see the Grizzlies re-signing Swift. If he is signed anywhere, it will be for more than he is currently making anyway, because Centers are in high demand; even 6-9 ones.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree Armstrong was the heart of the Magic and when they lost him, they lost their leader. Grant Hill would become the immediate leader of the team and with T-Mac out of the lineup, the shots would be spread out better amongst the Magic players. T-Mac is a great individual player, but he didn't do a good job of getting his teammates involved and in a rhythm last season. Last year we saw several teams have success playing without a Superstar, the Jazz, Nuggets, Bucks, and Grizzlies all played TEAM ball to get victories instead of relying on a single individual. By upgrading 3 positions for 1 the Magic would definitely be a better team than last season and they would contend for the playoffs.</div>

Team basketball takes more than a bunch of mediocre players. There has to be some sort of catalyst as well as depth. Orlando won't get either through this trade. McGrady took so many shots because he was the superstar. He'd take that many shots on the Grizzlies as well. You can't blame him. He is one of the ten best players in the NBA, so how many shots is he supposed to pass up? He puts up some of the best assist numbers for a shooting guard in the NBA. He tried to get his teammates involved, but the pieces to the puzzle just weren't there.

 

There's no reason for Bonzi Wells to stay in Memphis if the trade happens. T-Mac covers the SG, Miller SF. It's better off Gasol and Wells for T-Mac. Memphis needs Jason Williams too.

 

Wells has to be part of T-Mac deal so Orlando will be more interested. Keep it to Wells and Gasol for T-Mac. Memphis still needs Williams.

Starting Line-up.
C - Dampier
PF - Swift
SF - Miller
SG - McGrady
PG - Williams

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Just like I was saying earlier, Posey is a bigger part of the team than you realize. If I had to place value on each Grizzlie, I'd probably place the third or fourth biggest value on Jason Williams; however, I don't see him as the most valuable asset we have. If we trade away Pau Gasol and James Posey, then we are trading away our two best players. </div>

i know the role posey plays in memphis, and i know its a big one, he goes out and guards the other teams best player every night, and he gives them a "trasher" presence. no argument that pau is the best player on the team, but tmac brings all of that you are shipping out, minus the defense of posey, but hubie can change that, he has a way of getting players to play his style of ball. it doesnt matter what value u place on jason williams, when it comes down to it, he's going to be at the top of the league in assists just about every year

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Having a backcourt of Jason Williams and Tracy McGrady actually scares me rather than excites me. I think it's a match made in hell. You think now that it would be great because Jason Williams would finally have someone to pass to; however, I am seeing potential problems with McGrady not getting enough touches, because Williams tends to be a bit of a "ball-hog". </div>

williams being a ball-hog is an absurd statement IMO. does he tend to take bad shots? yes... but ball-hog? no... the guy averaged under 10 shots a game this year, and 11 shots a game last year...

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Earl Watson and Tracy McGrady wouldn't run into any problems like that. It's like you completely forgot about Watson. He's fully capable of running a team; he's proven it when Jason Williams has been out.</div>

i have not forgotten about watson, but i do not see him as a capable starting PG... sure he filled in nicely when williams was out, but when it all comes down to it, williams is the better PG handsdown. But i do agree that he is one of the better backup PGs in the league.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Pau Gasol takes those shots because that's his role. If Tracy McGrady came on the team, then his role would be as the main shot-taker of the team. The one player who is not accepting his role properly is Jason Williams. The Grizzlies need Jason Williams to do a better job of setting up the offense and finding the open man rather than taking his crazy shots. He's is and always has shown signs of being a "ball-hog".</div>

i understand it is gasol's role to take those shots, since he is the main offensive weapon on that team, but if u can get a player with as much offensive talent as tmac, you must defer to him. in the end, you will still get your shots, maybe not as many, but they will be there, especially late in the game when the ball is usually worked from in the inside, out. And again, i dont believe jason williams had any problems setting up the offense and getting guys the ball, he averaged 8 assists two seasons ago, and a tad under 7 this year while keeping his TO's down. but the one thing he does need to do is stop hoisting up wild shots, especially late in games.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">We've been over this as well. Mike Miller and Tracy McGrady are two peas in a pod; they're the best of friends. One of the big plusses of having McGrady on the Grizzlies would be his play with Miller. It's become evident that the two play better together, kind of like Kobe and Shaq (although they don't have as close of a friendship as Miller and McGrady do). Also, if Orlando didn't want Miller before then why would they want him now? I think it'd be pretty stupid for a player to be traded back to his original team in just a little bit over a year apart.
</div>

keeping miller there might improve millers play, but it wont be because they are friends, kobe and shaq don't play well together because they are friends, in fact, kobe and shaq despise each other. and players get shipped back to their old teams all the time... Lindsey Hunter was traded to boston, then ended back up in detroit in less than a month.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So you have to have a certain skill level to be McGrady's backup? That's just plain rediculous. We've been over this as well. Wells will need to be traded because he's not going to be able to take playing 8-12 minutes per night behind McGrady. </div>

i never said you had to have a certain skill level to be a backup. i said he would make a good backup to mcgrady, as he can fill the offensive void that will be created when tmac goes to the bench. and he doesnt necessarily have to go out when tmac comes in, bonzi and tmac can be used as a 2 and 3 combo.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> no argument that pau is the best player on the team,</div>

Actually, yes there is. Most people feel the best player on the team is James Posey. Those who feel Pau Gasol is the best player on the team are becoming a minority. Posey really proved his worth this year, and I highly doubt West would trade him and Gasol for one player.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">i know the role posey plays in memphis, and i know its a big one, he goes out and guards the other teams best player every night, and he gives them a "trasher" presence.

................

but tmac brings all of that you are shipping out, minus the defense of posey, but hubie can change that, he has a way of getting players to play his style of ball. </div>

What style of ball is that? The style of ball that drives a team straight into the ground? Make no mistake; Brown and West have no tolerance for players who want others to play their own style of ball. Just look at how quickly they put a stop to Jason William's running and gunning style of play. James Posey and an above-average starter like Miller should be enough for a guy like McGrady. The Grizzlies aren't about to package away their best defensive option as well as their best offensive option for McGrady. That's my whole point.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">it doesnt matter what value u place on jason williams, when it comes down to it, he's going to be at the top of the league in assists just about every year</div>

Assists don't mean jack when your team doesn't win. Andre Miller actually won the assist title a few years ago while he was a Cavalier. Did that mean he was a great player? No, because his team was crap. Jason Williams had two years in Memphis to prove that he could lead a team, and he failed misserably. This year the team finally starts doing well, and Jason Williams doesn't show up among the top assist leaders anymore. Coincidence? It's no secret; Earl Watson is the direction the franchise should head in.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">williams being a ball-hog is an absurd statement IMO. does he tend to take bad shots? yes... but ball-hog? no... the guy averaged under 10 shots a game this year, and 11 shots a game last year...</div>

Understand that statistics are extremely missleading in the rotation that the Grizzlies run. Jason Williams doesn't get the minutes of Gary Payton or Jason Kidd, thus he's naturally not going to be taking as many shots. However, I believe that if you gave him the minutes he'd be throwing them up there. His poor decisions that you acknowledge are one of the main reason he is a ball-hog. Jason Kidd wouldn't run down the court and jack up a shot like Jason Williams would.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">i have not forgotten about watson, but i do not see him as a capable starting PG... sure he filled in nicely when williams was out, but when it all comes down to it, williams is the better PG handsdown. But i do agree that he is one of the better backup PGs in the league.</div>

You need to check out a thread in this forum about Watson an Williams. I won't go into it here. If you want to argue that, then we can take it to that thread. It'd keep this one more on track.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">keeping miller there might improve millers play, but it wont be because they are friends, kobe and shaq don't play well together because they are friends, in fact, kobe and shaq despise each other. and players get shipped back to their old teams all the time... Lindsey Hunter was traded to boston, then ended back up in detroit in less than a month.</div>

I know that Kobe and Shaq aren't friends. I even said that. However, it's about chemistry as well as friendship. Mike Miller and Tracy McGrady have undeniable chemistry.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">i never said you had to have a certain skill level to be a backup. i said he would make a good backup to mcgrady, as he can fill the offensive void that will be created when tmac goes to the bench. and he doesnt necessarily have to go out when tmac comes in, bonzi and tmac can be used as a 2 and 3 combo.</div>

There's no way Bonzi Wells would accept eight minutes per game. I just sounds good on paper. It wouldn't work.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What style of ball is that? The style of ball that drives a team straight into the ground? Make no mistake; Brown and West have no tolerance for players who want others to play their own style of ball. Just look at how quickly they put a stop to Jason William's running and gunning style of play. James Posey and an above-average starter like Miller should be enough for a guy like McGrady. The Grizzlies aren't about to package away their best defensive option as well as their best offensive option for McGrady. That's my whole point. </div>

TMac played that "take every shot opportunity I get" style of ball in orlando because he had to. Give him a team with better players around him and he is good enough to make them better. Granted, he will still need 20 plus shots a night, but a player of that caliber should be getting 20 plus shots a night, especially if the other options on the team are james posey, earl watson, and mike miller. No GM in the league would take posey and miller for mcgrady straight up, that is a non-sense trade heavily in favor of the team that recieves Tmac. You are talking about a franchise player for two role players, not gonna happen.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Understand that statistics are extremely missleading in the rotation that the Grizzlies run. Jason Williams doesn't get the minutes of Gary Payton or Jason Kidd, thus he's naturally not going to be taking as many shots. However, I believe that if you gave him the minutes he'd be throwing them up there. His poor decisions that you acknowledge are one of the main reason he is a ball-hog. Jason Kidd wouldn't run down the court and jack up a shot like Jason Williams would.</div>

comparing williams shots per 48 to kidd and payton's shots per 48 may perhaps be a more fair argument, and in doing so, williams shoots 16.2 shots per 48min, whereas payton puts up 17.4 shots per 48, and kidd 18.8 shots per 48... and taking bad shots doesn't mean you are a ball hog, and making bad decisions doesn't mean you are a ball hog, and the decisions he makes w/ the ball aren't that bad, afterall, he ranked 4th in assists to TO this year, and 2nd in the category last year.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There's no way Bonzi Wells would accept eight minutes per game. I just sounds good on paper. It wouldn't work.</div>

again, bonzi would still be able to log more than 8 min/game, as he can still be used when tmac is in the game. Lots of teams use a 3 guard set for a good portion of the game, and tmac, as well as bonzi, can play the 3 spot to buy time for more natural 3 players.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">TMac played that "take every shot opportunity I get" style of ball in orlando because he had to. Give him a team with better players around him and he is good enough to make them better. Granted, he will still need 20 plus shots a night, but a player of that caliber should be getting 20 plus shots a night, especially if the other options on the team are james posey, earl watson, and mike miller. No GM in the league would take posey and miller for mcgrady straight up, that is a non-sense trade heavily in favor of the team that recieves Tmac. You are talking about a franchise player for two role players, not gonna happen.</div>

First of all, you're really underrating James Posey. I might go as far as saying he's our franchise player. He's way above a role player. Also, you're saying the exact same thing that I was saying on earlier pages of this thread. I know McGrady will change his style. But from the way your post sounded, I thought you were implying that he would come in here and make everyone change to his style of ball.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">comparing williams shots per 48 to kidd and payton's shots per 48 may perhaps be a more fair argument, and in doing so, williams shoots 16.2 shots per 48min, whereas payton puts up 17.4 shots per 48, and kidd 18.8 shots per 48... and taking bad shots doesn't mean you are a ball hog, and making bad decisions doesn't mean you are a ball hog, and the decisions he makes w/ the ball aren't that bad, afterall, he ranked 4th in assists to TO this year, and 2nd in the category last year.</div>

Again, this is not something stats can messure. You would have had to seen him all year. Instead of passing the ball to Gasol, he'll take the open 'J'. Infact, there was actually a fight about that in the Grizzlies clubhouse between Gasol and Williams. They almost came to blows over it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">again, bonzi would still be able to log more than 8 min/game, as he can still be used when tmac is in the game. Lots of teams use a 3 guard set for a good portion of the game, and tmac, as well as bonzi, can play the 3 spot to buy time for more natural 3 players.</div>

Bonzi won't be playing over Miller and Battier.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">First of all, you're really underrating James Posey. I might go as far as saying he's our franchise player. He's way above a role player. Also, you're saying the exact same thing that I was saying on earlier pages of this thread. I know McGrady will change his style. But from the way your post sounded, I thought you were implying that he would come in here and make everyone change to his style of ball.</div>

i am not underrating james posey, but to go as far as to say this guy is a franchise player, i think you are overrating him. i know what posey is capable of, and i have seen numerous grizzlies games. james posey is above role player status however, i do agree with that, but i dont think any team would go as far as to give this guy a max contract and tag him their franchise.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Again, this is not something stats can messure. You would have had to seen him all year. Instead of passing the ball to Gasol, he'll take the open 'J'. Infact, there was actually a fight about that in the Grizzlies clubhouse between Gasol and Williams. They almost came to blows over it.</div>

again, i've seen many memphis games this year and can say williams is not a ballhog just based on his assists statistic. his role is not to just feed the ball to gasol every time down, and you should not be criticizing him for taking the open jumper, as this is actually what you should be doing... its actually worse to pass up an open jumper than it is to take it, so i dont see how the argument that instead of giving the ball to gasol, he takes the J makes sense. And also, i've always been a fan of gasol's, but he has upset me, as he has shown very little improvement since his rookie year, but i do understand alot of it has to do w/ hubies system.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Bonzi won't be playing over Miller and Battier.</div>
Assuming posey is dealt, bonzi should have no problem getting 18-24 minutes.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">i am not underrating james posey, but to go as far as to say this guy is a franchise player, i think you are overrating him. i know what posey is capable of, and i have seen numerous grizzlies games. james posey is above role player status however, i do agree with that, but i dont think any team would go as far as to give this guy a max contract and tag him their franchise.</div>

One Question:

Who would you trade James Posey for?

He may not be a franchise type player, but he's that important to our current team. That's why if we were to give him up, we'd expect equal value in return. I'm not saying the Magic would do Posey/Miller for McGrady. I know there's no way in hell they would. However, that's the esteem that West holds Posey in, so I doubt any trade could get done between Memphis and Orlando which involves Posey.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">again, i've seen many memphis games this year and can say williams is not a ballhog just based on his assists statistic. his role is not to just feed the ball to gasol every time down, and you should not be criticizing him for taking the open jumper, as this is actually what you should be doing... its actually worse to pass up an open jumper than it is to take it, so i dont see how the argument that instead of giving the ball to gasol, he takes the J makes sense. And also, i've always been a fan of gasol's, but he has upset me, as he has shown very little improvement since his rookie year, but i do understand alot of it has to do w/ hubies system.</div>

The J's I'm talking about aren't open. He'll just run down and pull the trigger. Any time that one of the team's best players has a problem with your ball distribution, you are a ball hog in my eyes.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Assuming posey is dealt, bonzi should have no problem getting 18-24 minutes.</div>

How? McGrady will play in the upper 30's, and Miller and Battier combined will play more than that. I don't see exactly where Wells' minutes come in.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">One Question:

Who would you trade James Posey for?
</div>

If i could get TMac, i'd trade Posey in a heartbeat. Aside from the defense, TMac is a better player in every other aspect. Better passer, better shooter, better ball handler, better moves (driving, fadeaway, pullup J's, etc). I understand how crucial he is to the team, but I think if you have a chance at a guy like TMac, a guy who you can build the franchise around, you do it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The J's I'm talking about aren't open. He'll just run down and pull the trigger. Any time that one of the team's best players has a problem with your ball distribution, you are a ball hog in my eyes.</div>

in your previous post, you stated the jumpers he takes are open, thats why I posted what i did. I know he has a tendency sometimes to run down the floor on a break, pull up behind the line, and hoist up a 3. But the guy has been doing it his whole career, and he's actually done it less in Memphis than he did in sacto, and when he was at florida. i still don't see where you're coming from about this ball-hog standpoint though. there is a difference between taking bad shots, and being a ball-hog. i think in order to be considered a ball-hog, you should take at least 20 shots a game. Williams only took more than 12 shots a game once in his career. And as far as being a ball-hog goes, I think this is one statistic that can be measured statistically. There are a lot of PG's who shoot well over 12 times a game who are not considered ball hogs.