Religion Mid East Religious War, Now with added USA Involvement!

What is interesting to think about, which is what @Phatguysrule is discussing - is what the equivalent of the Marshal plan will be for help to the Palestinians if / after the Hamas is removed. Now, the US and the allies did not "control" Europe after WW2, but there was a big US military presence there and while Japan was not, technically, a part of the Marshal plan, they did receive a lot of rebuilding money from the US, but there was a US control there for 7 years.

I do not think that anyone will be interested in Israel taking control of Gaza the same way, which is why I think the only long term solution is to find some kind of a 3rd party mediator that will control it while it is rebuilt. If there will be one like that will be interesting to see.

 

Well, you're definitely diminishing them by saying Israel has no other choice to protect their civilians. From the data I saw from UN, 300 people over 15 years. So 20 a year. I do not want to discount their lives, but more people die from gang violence in like every big US city it seems. It seems Israel is doing a great job in protecting their citizens.

 

I would argue that none of them would have died if Hamas did not attack originally and used them as shields. My argument is not that I am diminishing their life, it is that Hamas is. I am again going to the question of - how can Israel protect it's citizens when it has to fight an opponent that does not value the life of their own constituents?

The correct question is not why is it 10 to 400 or whatever the number is, it is why isn't it 0 to 0?

If we agree that Israel has the right to protect it's citizens, and if we also agree that Hamas should not use civilians as shields, I do not understand how anyone can suggest these 2 true facts are the reason for the problem and why we should blame the ones that were not the aggressors.

Again, at large, history has shown that Israel has been and hopefully will continue to be willing to make concessions for peace. Until the other side is willing to do the same, it just makes no sense to me to blame them for the consequences of the aggression.

 

The IDF is pounding the shit out of Gaza with rockets.

 

I don't blame the civilians on either side. And both sides should go out of their way to avoid targeting civilians.

Any side who doesn't go out of their way to keep civilians out of it is in the wrong. Any side deliberately cutting off food, water and electricity to or bombing women and children is wrong.

Hamas is certainly in the wrong. I'd prefer it if Israel weren't. But as of right now, they are in the wrong as well. No question about it.

 

Not sure how to say this.

A very disturbing report of Hamas sending videos to the families of the IDF soldiers being held hostage in the tunnels below Gaza. Especially disturbing were videos of the female IDF soldiers, and leave it there.

Not sure, but this maybe the reason for last nights heavy rocket pounding.

 

Wars in the middle east will never end.

Many people point to post WW1 as the starting point of the problems when England and France divided up the mid-east. It was just one chapter of a very large book.

Truth is, all of these tribes have been throwing stones at each other, and fighting over control of the lands since before the first addition (edition) of the old testament.

No one knows who threw the first stone, or why. Hating each other has lasted so long it is breed into them.

Wish we had the option to let them work it out among themselves. All we are doing by being involved is uniting many of the tribes that hate each other, to now hate a common enemy, the USA. I can't count how many times they have told us to get out of the mid-east.

The mid-east tribal wars will never end. Best we can hope for are long periods of peace and calm.

BTW, appreciate everyone's tolerance of my many spelling errors. For a growing number of reasons, posting has become a very difficult long process. Getting old sucks!

 

And they will always do so until there is a fair and just power which can show patience and understanding while rewarding peace and cooperation, lifting the whole region to a higher standard of living for multiple generations.

Israel has squandered many opportunities to do so, the US has as well. And the US had the world behind us for Desert Storm and after 9/11. Both opportunities in which we could have made vast gains if we truly had good intentions and quality leadership.

This was an opportunity for Israel to do the same, with the full backing of the rest of the world.

 

Biden Officials Claim No Leverage Over Israel as US Prepares $14 Billion in Military Aid

"Instead of funding more bombs with American taxpayer dollars, our leaders should be calling for a cease-fire now," said Rep. Rashida Tlaib.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/biden-leverage-israel

America won't call for peace. We literally don't care about peace.

America's only solution to military conflict is, to sell more weapons...

 

Here is a story from 2021:
https://apnews.com/article/business...d-gaza-strip-611b2b90c3a211f21185d59f4fae6a90

I am not sure that the idea that no-money arrives in Gaza is true.

The issue has been that the people that have their hands on the money are the same ones that also fund rockets and tunnels and terror operations, so how much of it actually goes to the people is questionable.

I think a lot of the issue is that all the money that is earmarked for aid often ends up somewhere else or is used as an excuse for Hamas not to invest in the people.

You have the double-edged sword here of giving self authority to the people's so called representatives - without a way to properly monitor how they use the money.

While I agree that investment in the area will be good, I am not sure how you can do it when Hamas rules it. This is not a democratic society with easy access to anyone to see where the money goes to and how it is used.

 

1) IDF soldiers have moved into parts of Gaza City, and found a tunnel under a hospital.

2) 45 USA soldiers wounded todate in Syria and Iraq by Iranian backed terrorist attacks.

 

You can't allow those kinds of people to maintain power. You have to get them out. Go after their leadership.

Targeting civilians is not acceptable.

 

That's the catch 22, isn't it?

How can you do it when they use that against you and hide behind the civilians. Seriously, maybe it is just my advanced age, I just don't know how you do it without horrific losses to your own people.

The only thing I have seen, historically, was WW2 when horrific losses all around followed by the winning side investing heavily in rebuilding the losing side worked.

If you don't go against them, your own people (civilians) will continue to live under daily terror and rockets. If you do, you suffer horrific losses or there are civilian losses because of your operations.

I know that our liberal hearts (and I am one of those people) hurt when you think of the collateral damage, but I, for one, just can't see a move that solves it without taking the truly evil people that just don't want to compromise out. Otherwise, you are just kicking the can down the road.

 

Agree, get them out, and go after their leadership. But I believe the time has come to go one step further.

This cycle will continue until the Iranian leaders funding and training these terrorist groups are given a permanent attitude adjustment.

 

I don't think so. If you offer the people services that radical leadership is (and isn't) providing (including medical care, education, security, etc), and you have agents looking for radical leadership and paying for information, and you keep doing that for a few decades you will root the problems out.

But you have to be fair. And you have to understand that it will take a massive investment of time and effort, for a very long time.

If Israel wanted to do it, it could institute an eye in the sky program over the whole region and pick Hamas apart within a year. No drone strikes needed, just military force. Then it's just down to providing services and educating the population.

It's not easy, but it is possible, and it would work.

We've had this technology for decades (you can only imagine how advanced it is now). They could literally track every person in the region and trace nearly every attack back to the person who planned it.

 

This is a valid point, and I don't know how best to deal with it. The US mucking with Iran is why it has fallen as far as it has... How do we just go after its leaders? All out war with Iran?

 

Good question, all out war with Iran would kill a lot of civilians.

I have not traveled to Iran, but have talked to people that have traveled to many countries. They claim the Iranian people are the nicest and most generous people in the world. It is their leadership that is bad.

One idea that may work. Destroy their oil industry. Take away the money source funding a lot of the terrorist groups.