http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/minutes/sort/avgMinutes/qualified/false Minutes per game - number of guys in the top 40 POR: 4 CLE: 3 (2 in top 10) SAC: 3 LAC: 3 NO: 3 ORL: 3 WSH: 2 HOU: 2 (2 in top 10) CHI: 2 TOR: 2 MIN: 2 DEN: 1 NY: 1 CHA: 1 BKN: 1 MIA: 1 UTAH: 1 LAL: 1 PHX: 1 MEM: 1 OKC: 1 DAL: 1 Are the pitchforks out in Cleveland for playing Kyrie / Lebron / Love heavy minutes? It only seemed that people were mad when they were losing. Are Clippers fans in a tizzy over Doc playing Chris Paul so many minutes? My goodness, Portland must be ready to storm the Moda Center and stop the lunacy before some real damage is done.
Minutes per game - number of guys in the top 20 CHI 2 POR 2 CLE 2 HOU 2 LAC 2 SAC 2 UTAH 1 MIN 1 NO 1 DEN 1 WAS 1 BKN 1 CHA 1 MIA 1 Let's not ignore the fact that Noah and Rose have been on minutes restrictions most of the season, or they would surely be in the top 40 as well. My problem with Thibs isn't the total minutes guys are playing, it's the fact that he refuses to pull his starters with a 20 point lead and 4:00 left in the game. The fact that he consistently plays guys 12 or more consecutive minutes without a 2-3 minute breather. The fact that he refuses to give guys like McDermott and Bairstow even 5-6 minutes of meaningful playing time ever, just to get them acclimated to the NBA game. Let 'em play the first 5 minutes of the 2nd quarter two or three times a month and don't freak out and to back to the starters every time the opponent goes on a 8-0 or 10-2 run. It's the NBA, 8-0 and 10-2 runs happen every game, usually multiple times a game. The fact that the Bulls have the deepest PF/C rotation in the league, yet 34-year-old Pau Gasol is 19th in the league in minutes per game. That's inexcusable, as is the way he's jerked Mirotic's minutes around all season. I really can't wait to see Niko blow up next season when he's playing for a coach who will make him a featured player on offense at POWER FORWARD. Kirk Hinrich. 'Nuff said. Thibs is an outstanding coach, but he could be a great coach if we would make some adjustments. But we're almost at the end of year 5, if he hasn't adjusted by now, he's not going to.
2002-03 Championship Spurs 2014-15 Chicago Bulls The playing time for the top 4 or 5 players is almost identical. Last season's Bulls: Noah, #2 in minutes per game, played 2 more per game than the Spurs' #2, Parker.
Even though you selectively made the cutoff at 20 to just include Gasol, which is of course a bit shady, this still says that the minutes allocated by Thibs isn't that out of line with the rest of the league. There are several franchises that play their stud players heavy minutes. The two bulls all-stars are in the top 40 in minutes. This is out of line? I actually find this to be annoying at times as well. Its hard to really say though if this has any negative impact one way or another. I see it more of a quibble far outweighed by the plusses he brings to the table. This is interesting. Do you have any research / facts to say that this makes a difference? It kind of makes sense, but I'd be interested to see if it matters. Do you have anything to back it up with? Also, could you somehow compile a report that shows Thibs plays guys 12+ minutes in a row more than other coaches? That would be very interesting to see. What are the numbers on this one? Well, Dougie was getting burn at the start of the season, and played pretty rotten. This is the whole development minutes on a contending team thing. The Bulls didn't have development minutes to give. They are not the TWolves and can just play Wiggins heavy minutes to develop him. Niko is getting playing time, so that shows it isn't a rookie thing with Thibs. Every team has an 11th and 12th guy. It was McBuckets and Baristow. They tend not to play a lot. Isn't that typical? Well, now we'll be getting to see some McBuckets one would imagine. I'm hoping he lights up the scoreboard.
Thibs has addressed the criticism of playing his starters with big leads late in games. Basically, the old Bulls with Jordan did, as well. And until the opponent takes out their starters, the game is on - the opposing team is trying to win.
IMO, if you don't have a problem with the overall minutes Thibodeau plays his players, then you're just micro-criticizing with the big leads late thing. I've seen 20-point leads disappear quickly in the NBA. I'm with Thibodeau on this one.
At some point he should be playing our end of bench players garbage time minutes. But gritty style basketball doesn't actually lead to many blowout victories. The object of the strategy is to try to win 61-60.
Why not go top-30, which only leaves CLE, LAC and ORL with 3 players in the top-30? Why not go top-80, in which case 4 Bulls would be on the list? Why not "guys who play 36+ minutes"? There are 7 FWIW Why not "guys who play 35+ minutes"? There are 16. But like I said, I don't even have a problem with the total number of minutes Thibs is playing guys, it's more the way he goes about it. The "development minutes on a contending team thing" is just a complete fallacy. You can't say "the Bulls don't have development minutes to give" when all the other playoff teams routinely get the 11th thru 13th men on their rosters minutes. Moore has played 276 minutes, McDermott 211, and Nazr 72 (Bairstow only 58). The other playoff teams' 11th - 13th men: ATL - 464, 255, 167 TOR - 206, 205, 58 CHI - 276, 211, 72 CLE - 596, 417, 411 WAS - 691, 393, 210 MIL - 586, 417, 307 MIA - 613, 592, 296 BRK - 345, 324, 265 GSW - 392, 281, 182 MEM - 605, 540, 452 HOU - 424, 393, 369 POR - 473, 422, 391 LAC - 393, 263, 103 DAL - 505, 463, 348 SAS - 653, 504, 339 OKC - 578, 563, 450 All I'm asking is that Thibs give McDermott and Bairstow 20-30 meaningful minutes per month. Every other team seems to be able to do it, but Thibs insists on running Hinrich out there for 25 minutes while Moore and McDermott are getting DNPs. Hinrich has played 31% of the Bulls' SG minutes this season. That's damn near a fireable offense on its own. Mirotic is getting minutes now that Taj is hurt, but for some reason Gibson averages 28.1 minutes to Niko's 17.3 per game. Even though damned near every basic and advanced stat says that Niko is playing better than Taj. Per36 minutes, Niko has the edge in points, rebounds, assists, free throw attempts, and steals. They are tied in turnovers, and Taj leads 1.6 to 1.2 in blocked shots. Advanced stats have Niko with a higher PER, TS%, Free Throw Rate, Def Reb %, Total Reb %, Ast %, Steal %, Turnover %, Usage %, Defensive Win Shares, Total Win Shares, and Win Shares per 48. Taj is better in Off Reb %, Blocked Shot %, and Offensive Win Shares. Not to mention the fact that the team's Defensive Rating is 98.9 when Niko is on the floor, 102.7 when Taj is on the floor. Net Rating is, of course, the team's offensive rating minus its defensive rating while that player is on the floor. The Bulls top-3 in Net Rating: Brooks 6.1 Mirotic 5.8 Snell 4.5 Somehow, those guys are 7th, 9th and 10th on the team in total minutes played. They are 8th, 9th and 10th in minutes per game.
For me, it's a "why take a chance on a guy getting hurt in meaningless garbage time" issue. Of course, I have the same issue whenever I see Belichick send Brady back out on the field with 7 minutes to play and a 4 TD lead, so maybe it's just me? But yeah, that's a very minor problem.
Fine, whatever way you slice it, Thibs does not play his players an excessive number of total minutes MPG, at least compared to several other NBA teams. That's a non-story. Many NBA teams tend to play their all-star level talent lots of MPG. Fair enough, and I can tend to agree with this. But, once again, isn't this a quibble, not really a huge deal? Will those 20 minutes a month in garbage time really lead to much development? Also, when they were playing McDermott earlier in the season, it seemed as if the Bulls were often losing leads or digging deeper holes. Then a couple more losses pile up and the story is "why can't the Bulls beat these average to bad teams?" which of course we hear as well. So.... it seems the only way to keep everyone happy is.... win lots of NBA games while not playing your all-stars heavy minutes and also play rookies a fair number of development minutes, but don't lose any games you shouldn't.... all while managing the egos of established vets who all want to play in crunch time. Oh yah, and win the title with a "superstar" who can't play most of the time due to being so brittle. Yeesh, good luck to the Mayor on that one. The other big thing is, out of the title contending teams, do any of them give a rat's ass about 20 minutes a month going to the 12th man on the team? If the goal is to win a NBA championship this season, this is not a secondary concern, its not a tertiary concern, its a whatever comes two or three later from tertiary concern. Is this even being discussed in Cleveland? No, they actually shipped Wiggins ass out of town b/c they knew that these next two seasons are not for developing rookies, they are for winning the NBA championship. Lebron would have no use for such nonsense. And McDermott is certainly no Wiggins. If the Bulls were "win later," then hell yah, McDermott 24/7. But they are not. They are "win now" and there are better players ahead of him. These are all mere quibbles IMO and not really worth going back and forth about. It would be great if the D League could become a true minor league for the NBA ala MLB and these dramas would not even exist.
So, all the Niko fans, must have been thrilled with Sunday's contest, right? The rookie got heavy minutes and lit up the scoreboard. Sadly, the Bulls lost, because he's not the guy you want leading your team in points and getting 30 a night right now if the goal is to win the NBA championship. We can go Baby Bulls again and have McDermott and Niko get plenty of burn and perhaps put up great numbers. That team would lose plenty of games though and not be a threat to win the NBA championship anytime soon. I guess people need to decide what they want. The Bulls have a really solid if brittle squad right now. Gasol is an all-star. Butler is an all-star. Gibson is usually a solid 6th man. Noah was a 1st team All-NBA center last season and looks to be getting a spring in his step again here. Rose at least looks like he can be good if not great once he realizes he's not ever going to be a member of the Splash Bros. Thibs is a really good NBA coach. There are some solid vet glue guys as well like Dunleavy. Snell looks like he's finally putting it together. The focus should be on getting 1-2 more seasons out of this core. The rookies are a nice to have. If they can contribute, great. If not, that's fine too. There will be plenty of minutes down the road for them. Don't you all remember how horrible it was having the Bulls suck year after year? There was always plenty of minutes for rookies then, and some of them put up good numbers. I'd rather ride out this winning core for another season or two and keep the focus on winning the NBA championship.
I really don't have anything more to say on this subject, except for this: _______________________________________________________________ Gibson averages 28.1 minutes to Niko's 17.3 per game. Even though damned near every basic and advanced stat says that Niko is playing better than Taj. Per36 minutes, Niko has the edge in points, rebounds, assists, free throw attempts, and steals. They are tied in turnovers, and Taj leads 1.6 to 1.2 in blocked shots. Advanced stats have Niko with a higher PER, TS%, Free Throw Rate, Def Reb %, Total Reb %, Ast %, Steal %, Turnover %, Usage %, Defensive Win Shares, Total Win Shares, and Win Shares per 48. Taj is better in Off Reb %, Blocked Shot %, and Offensive Win Shares. Not to mention the fact that the team's Defensive Rating is 98.9 when Niko is on the floor, 102.7 when Taj is on the floor. Net Rating is, of course, the team's offensive rating minus its defensive rating while that player is on the floor. The Bulls top-3 in Net Rating: Brooks 6.1 Mirotic 5.8 Snell 4.5 Somehow, those guys are 7th, 9th and 10th on the team in total minutes played. They are 8th, 9th and 10th in minutes per game. _________________________________________________________________ Hopefully next year's coach will actually play the most effective players the most minutes. I know that's a wild and radical concept, but it seems to be working for teams who try it. Golden State has the best record in the league. Their top-6 players in Net Rating are: Curry, Green, Bogut, Thompson, Iguodala, Barnes. Not surprisingly, those guys are their top-6 in minutes per game. The Hawks are 1/2 game behind the Warriors. Their top-6 in Net Rating are: Thabo, Korver, Teague, Milsap, Horford and Carroll. That's also the list of their top-6 in minutes per game. Obviously, even the most advanced stats don't tell the entire story, and nobody just looks at Net Rating and doles out the minutes in exact proportion to Net Rating. But I'm guessing it would be close to impossible to find a team whose top-3 players in Net Rating are the last three guys in a 10-man rotation.
Yup, if Niko keeps playing the way he has, he'll be getting more minutes, that's for sure. He's averaging 17.5 a game now and its on the rise. Thibs has no problem playing him. Of course, balancing minutes between 4 good to great players like Taj, Niko, Gasol and Noah at the 4/5 is a challenge on a contending team, but we all knew that going into the season. Seems like Thibs is on top of it. There are only so many minutes to go around at the 4/5. As for McDermott, if he keeps playing like he did last night, I would anticipate him not getting many minutes on a contending team. Perhaps on a losing team he would get development minutes, but not on a contending team, if the goal is to win NBA basketball games. And yes, it was interesting to see how the Hawks and Warriors didn't have guys in the top 40 in MPG when I was looking at it the other day. That seems like it is on purpose. Also interesting the Rockets, one of the top "advanced metrics" teams out there, plays the studs heavy minutes. ----- Just curious, I thought you raised an interesting point when you were complaining about Thibs playing guys 12+ minutes at a time too much. I had asked you to compile a report on if there was any research to really show that was a bad thing and if, in fact, Thibs does this considerably more than other NBA coaches. You wrote a lot of stuff since then, but I still have not seen anything to this point. Do you have anything meaningful to share, or was that just pure conjecture? Thanks.
Why would I bother? I showed you clearly that 14 of the other 15 playoff teams have no problem finding minutes for the 11th - 13th men on their rosters, and you just blatantly ignored it. With your same changing of lanes that I've gotten accustomed to over the years. I say: All I'm asking is that Thibs give McDermott and Bairstow 20-30 meaningful minutes per month. You reply: Will those 20 minutes a month in garbage time really lead to much development? (Go see post #11 in this thread) All I'm asking is that Thibs give McDermott and Bairstow 20-30 meaningful minutes per month. Every other team seems to be able to do it, but Thibs insists on running Hinrich out there for 25 minutes while Moore and McDermott are getting DNPs. Fair enough, and I can tend to agree with this. But, once again, isn't this a quibble, not really a huge deal? Will those 20 minutes a month in garbage time really lead to much development? After I showed you definite proof with actual facts that all the other contending teams make sure that players 11-13 get some minutes on a semi-regular basis, you come back with: The other big thing is, out of the title contending teams, do any of them give a rat's ass about 20 minutes a month going to the 12th man on the team? They must give a rat's ass about it, they make sure those guys get minutes, that way if they are ever needed to play they won't shit their pants because they haven't seen the floor in 3 months. I apologize if I've interrupted your 100% front office bashing 100% of the time, I won't let it happen again. I feel bad for getting in the way of you and Jeff Van Gundy setting up that intervention for Thibs - he had other choices in 2010 but somehow chose to work for the Bulls' sadistic, coach-fucking front office, which had to scare the hell out of his friends. Then after two years, when he had the best won-lost record of any coach in NBA history in his first two seasons, he was suffering from Battered Coach Syndrome and PTSD so badly that he agreed to work for GarPaxDorfBastardLowlifeAbusers for another FOUR YEARS. I just pray that between you and Denny and Jeff Van Gundy, you can get Thibs out of this abusive relationship before it causes even more damage to his psyche and self-esteem.
Too bad. I was interested to see if you had anything to back your claim up, as it was an interesting one. Too bad there wasn't anything to back it up. Oh well.
There are some things I worry about with Thibs, but the playing time of McDermott and Bairstow is not one of them. CamBear is a rookie taken in the 2nd round of the draft. I do not know of any team that truly prioritizes getting those guys playing time for the sake of their own development. I think when the book is closed on Thibs' tenure with the Bulls, the playing time of Cameron Bairstow will not be talked about very much. McDermott's a little bit different since he was a lottery pick, but it's not Thibs' problem that he wasn't even close to a replacement level NBA player when he did have a spot in the rotation. He just totally blew. The numbers back this up. Then he got injured, and the season moved on. The end.
This is pretty much spot on. I call him McMorrison for a reason. Like Adam Morrison, he came into the NBA and wasn't very effective not being THE high usage guy, focus of the offense. On top of that, he's been asked to change position from PF to SF and chase around NBA caliber athletes. And on offense, his role is very different from his college usage in that he's expected to run around and come off screens and take quick release shots. All of this just doesn't seem to suit him, and it's a lot all at once. At least Morrison got played huge minutes as a rookie. The thing is, Dunleavy is not a very good basketball player so it shouldn't be that hard for anyone, even a rookie, to beat him out for the starting job. He doesn't even have to do much more than score 10 points in 30 minutes of playing time and not be killed on defense any more than Dunleavy is (which is a lot).
I'm actually still optimistic about Doug's place on the team in the long run. I wouldn't be surprised if he turned into a decent player starting next year. He has much more in game athleticism than Morrison and works more effectively off the ball. Adam Morrison made his living in college off of contested long jumpers -- a white man's Jamal Crawford. And I'd be surprised if he doesn't round into a very good shooter that teams have to gameplan for. But I don't see any issue with how his playing time has been handled this year.
