I don't see any issue either. I think we're mostly in agreement on this. I think Thibs would have started him if he showed he was a better player than Dunleavy. That he's not playing much is a clear indication that he's not earned Thibs' trust in practice or in the minutes he has played. Two players on this roster dominated in summer league. McMorrison and Snell. The latter given rotation minutes has shown that his summer league was no fluke. The time to give McMorrison rotation minutes was early in the season - I would have started him like Morrison was given starter minutes. I would have played him and overlooked rookie mistakes for the sake of learning the pro game. At this point, he's getting rotation minutes for lack of anyone else. Let's see if he rounds into form after a few games. Giving him a shot in one game, he goes 0-5, then back to the bench isn't my idea of allowing him to find his comfort zone.
Also, to get back to the original topic of the thread, I think there are two separate issues vis a vis the minutes issue. The one is the overall distribution of minutes, and here I think K4E is absolutely right that there's no indication that what the Bulls do with their players is different than any other team. The second, more subtle point is the marginal distribution of minutes, which I think is the issue people are really talking about even though it's not phrased that way. That is, how do you choose to play guys when they're at the edge of their physical capacity? It's possible to make those marginal decisions in ways that have big impacts on player health but not really impact minute distributions as a whole, which is why it seems like Thibs overplays guys even though when you look at the rounded numbers there's nothing all that interesting to see.
Yah, and that's the interesting issue. 1.) How big a deal is this really? Quibble or fireable offense? 2.) Does Thibs really do this much more than other coaches? And also, what exactly is the edge of physical capacity? It would be player specific I imagine. They track miles run now, so minutes doesn't even tell the whole story. A high pace team would have more mileage than a low paced team.
This is the nub of it to me and why I can't wait for the press conference introducing Fred Hoiberg. Making this specific: I believe Thibs should have been fired three seasons ago for his decision to play a hobbled Derrick Rose an entire half on February 8, 2012. The game was meaningless, and the Hornets had the worst record in the league at the time. Thibodeau could have sat his entire starting lineup and still won the game. But he trotted Derrick out for that game, even when Rose could barely more around the court. Rose was never the same again that season, before sustaining the ACL injury in the playoffs (which is often an injury that is caused from adjusting and trying to play through other injuries). That was probably Derrick Rose's career, right there. After the ACL, came the meniscus injury, which is often caused by compensating for ACL injuries, and then the second meniscus injury which followed from the first . . . and well, here we are. Fuck Thibodeau. He should only get the opportunity to ruin the career of one should be hall of famer.
Yup, it's the one mentioned in the article against NOH. I spent the entire game yelling at the TV. He had no business playing in that game, and I couldn't understand why Thib's didn't pull him until halftime.
Here's the game. Derrick Rose put up 6 points and 6 assists in 22:22 in the game. He didn't play again until Feb. 20 against ATL. After he Feb. 2 game against NOH, Rose was in and out of the lineup the rest of the season, before he went tore his ACL in the playoffs.
I don't claim to be an expert on how athletes should be handled while suffering the nagging aches and pains and minor injuries that obviously happen to them on a fairly regular basis. I remember the Championship Bulls players sitting on the bench with ice packs on their knees when they weren't in the games. But they still played heavy minutes. I have read many articles about the various injuries players have incurred and many of them suggest the treatment is exercise and playing. Back spasms? I remember Larry Bird playing and doing this while he wasn't in the game:
I understand where SST is coming from, but find his judgement too harsh. The human body wasn't really designed to stand upright, much less do what pro athletes do. Professional athletes play hurt. This reality is why Rose's comments about how he didn't want to hurt at his kid's graduation was so ridiculous. The game in question was back in the day where team management still trusted Thibodeau with regard to his judgement on playing his hurting players. Maybe it was part of the reason the trust evaporated. In any case, if Rose should have sat out that 2/10/12 game against NO, I think Bulls' management must at least share the blame with Thibodeau. I don't blame Bulls' management for "interfering" with Thibodeau's "right" to determine players' game and practice minutes. If this is one of the main reasons for the much-publicized GarPax-Thibodeau rift, then Thibodeau needs to back off and go along to get along.
Hey Bullsville, just curious if you found anything tangible about this. You seemed pretty confident when you were saying it, and its been a couple of days. Should we expect anything, or were you just making it up? You said it was a fact.
I think if Thibs deliberately goes against limitations set by the medical staff then it's a fireable offense. If not, then it's more of a grey area. It'd be interesting to know what the players say about it too. Hard to say. I mean, I think we can all agree that Thibs is intense. I'm comfortable saying that he's probably one of the 10 most demanding coaches in the league. His practices have a reputation for being very long and physically exhausting. However, my guess is that when the lights are on, all coaches are hyper-finnicky type-A's who'll do whatever they can to avoid that next losing streak that might cost them their job so the perception might be shaping the reality WRT Thibs. My guess is that it's very, very specific, and difficult to measure.
