Why should I not be angry? To me this sounds like the powerful telling marginalized don't be angry, submit. The people who did horrible things were telling me exactly what you say, that I am of no significance, I am a failure, therefore they can do horrible things because they can then increase while I decrease, so I should say I forgive you because I am so insignificant? No. Not going to happen. Rage is debilitating, but anger can be a positive. I am fucking angry about things happening so I can't just "tend my own garden", literally and figuratively. It is anger that kept me from suicide, the original topic of the thread, when I had people telling me straight out I should kill myself. Literally telling me but I was too fucking ornery to do so. I know when I am REALLY down because I don't feel anger.
Feel free to be angry. I get angry all the time. It is a natural human emotion that has been a large part of increasing our numbers to 7 billion. Getting angry over Trump saying he COULD grab women by the......that is just plain stupid as far as things to be angry over but it is your choice. Pruitt wasting our tax dollars on fountain pens or whatever the last thing he was wasting money on is exponentially worse. Most importantly, you don't have to listen to me or the people who told you to kill yourself. Do what makes you happy. I do and I am happy. Could the world be a better place? Sure it could but people suck.
My eternal significance is not derived from anything earthly, or anything I have done, but because I have been lovingly crafted by the creator of the universe for a purpose for which He designed me. Nothing anyone in my life ever says or does can ever change that fact. When I talk about viewing myself of no great significance, I'm not talking about seeing myself as worthless, because my worth is innate. I'm talking about placing others' interests above my own. Obviously serving God comes first. When I say "He must increase", I'm talking about the elevation of godly interest ahead of self-interest. As far as your view of anger is concerned, I don't have a whole lot to say about it--it's simply diametrically opposed to mine. Rather than being powered and motivated by anger, the joy of the Lord is my strength.
Ha! This is an interesting thought! But it is sort of like committing to do more hard work on a non profit basis.
I respect that...although it's mythology to me...if it brings you joy..it's a good thing. I was a devout Christian as a young man and my parents were devout atheists...rather than beleaguer the point by debating faith, I'd rather accept theological practice and along the same lines, accept the individuals right to choose not to live. Pro choice. In my view there's no negative consequence....which is why I have a living will in case someone wants to keep my heart beating for decades while I'm a vegetable...pull the plug if it happens rather than tax my family's savings renting a machine to keep me ticking. That could also be considered an act of suicide by me for just having the living will. I'll live with that. Last friend I had that took his own life I had spent over a year trying to help out...in the end..he made his choice..I was pissed at him for a long time afterwards but that was because I felt I'd failed to turn his will to live around...we were supposed to play tennis the morning I found him dead....now, I know it was what he truly wanted.
As an atheist, I consider all humans to have equal value, and also consider animals to have value. (Much as I love other animals I would assign lesser value; I eat meat, wear leather, and support medical research.) That means even those I most loathe, deservedly, should not be raped, starved, tortured - even if I think they deserve punishment in prison or by making restitution. It also means we are all (except very young children and those too mentally disabled to be able to make choices) responsible for what we do. I can't do something shitty and then say oh well if I pray god will forgive me and even if the other person has been not just hurt but has had their entire life irreparably damaged, well, they just have to forgive me whether I apologize/atone or not. Maybe one of the reasons why atheists/agnostics are under-represented in prison. It also means we get one chance and one only. So if I see something that needs doing or fixing on earth I have responsibility to do what I can. I can't say oh well the unjustly harmed, the Salvadoran woman Sessions just sent back to be raped, the children torn from their parents, the homeless, hungry, abused, will get bliss in heaven if they pray the right way. Or that some day G-d will bring the World to Come. Or that the victims deserve it because they didn't pray the right way and will get further punishment after death because of it. My biggest disagreement with Christianity (aside from the not so minor detail that I'm an atheist) is the notion that god can forgive anything if you have faith. In the most extreme case, and yes I have more than once heard self-identified Christians say this, if Hitler accepted Jesus in his last second on earth he's in heaven. The millions of Jews, Romas, gays, socialist, anarchists, etc he murdered are all burning in hell. Believe it or not this has been said to me as a way to get me to convert. My answer is that when Hitler killed people their misery anyway was over but I am supposed to worship a god who tortures them for eternity? A god who hates Jews worse than Hitler? Sorry about your friend, riverman, I can see how tough it must be to plan a social engagement with someone and instead they commit suicide - you are not responsible.
I admire the truth you relate from your understanding you have gained in learning to be a Christian. I sense you are sincere and believe what you say. However, I would also like to point out that much of the truths you make, are also simply true from a logical point of view. Such as; Perhaps the interest of others that allow you contribute, is the same a godly interests. Anger is always a burden, very difficult to find a profit in holding anger. There is a profit in forgiveness as it allows you to release the anger you hold, but that doesn't mean, the anger is replace with trust.
It's sad when someone demands they be treated with respect, yet makes the conscious decision to treat others(who are being respectful) with a lack of respect. It's people like this who will never understand why they're ignored.
This is why it’s so hard for me to feel bad for the republicans and Trump all whining about how much respect they should get. Did they ever give any of it to Obama or Clinton? The two way street of respect hasn’t been there for a long time and it’s gotten worse and worse Bush didn’t get any respect from the other side either. Republicans whining the Trump isn’t getting respect after actively disrespecting Obama for 8 years is the height of hypocrisy in my book.
I don’t like the idea of consequences resting on belief versus being a result of actions. That’s why I don’t like faith as a determinant. I think it’s the biggest flaw of Christianity. Accept Jesus and be saved instead of live a life Jesus would approve of and then be saved. Actions are what counts. Going back to Hitler. If he accepted Jesus he would be saved even though his actions were despicable while millions of his victims actions in life may have been virtuous yet without their acceptance they are doomed to misery. Makes no sense to me and is a flaw that should chase people away from Christianity.
>> I agree with your take. >>> I agree with your take. >>> Right on! >>>Maybe not! Perhaps the good teachings out weigh the nonsense.
The problem with this is the notion that holiness is something that can be earned. The whole concept of salvation by faith rests in dependence upon God. We are raised to be self-reliant and self-determinant, so by nature, we want to be in control of our ultimate destination. In essence, we don't want God to be necessary. That desire--to make our own actions, and thereby our own selves, more important than God--is steeped and rooted in the very rebellion that led to the fall in the first place. I understand the reasoning behind not liking the notion of salvation by faith, but I also understand from a Biblical perspective why it makes perfect sense.
I understand the merit to your view. But you can see the absurdity when taken to the extreme. So there must be a middle ground that at least avoids absurd.
I think the problem is we are NOT taught to be self-reliant and self-determinant. We don't have total control over our lives; accident of birth (nationality, social class, gender), disabilities or special abilities, family support or lack thereof, there are a host of things we really can't control. In the past people couldn't understand or control even the most basic aspects of life or nature so they needed gods to make lightning, explain birth and death, etc. I see no need. You can't argue morality; unless you want to say the Westboro Baptist Church is more moral than Einstein, an agnostic Jew!
