<div class="quote_poster">Quoting phunDamentalz:</div><div class="quote_post">Again, what I said to the other guy - Chris Paul over Nash? lol.</div> To be honest with you, I just completely forgot about Nash. Wow, I feel stupid. 1 - Kobe 2 - Dirk 3 - LeBron 4 - Wade 5 - Nash 6 - Brand 7 - Duncan 8 - Arenas 9 - Garnett 10 - Pierce
^^IMO Paul will be better than Nash next season. NEXT SEASON. He played for USA this summer, what did Nash do? Nash had better numbers last season, but who did Paul have to work with? West? Now that he actually has teammates he'll put up better numbers.
1. Dwyane Wade 2. Kobe Bryant 3. Lebron James 4. Kevin Garnett 5. Dirk Nowitzki 6. Allen Iverson 7. Elton Brand 8. Gilbert Arenas 9. Steve Nash 10. Tracy Mcgrady
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">^^IMO Paul will be better than Nash next season. NEXT SEASON. He played for USA this summer, what did Nash do? Nash had better numbers last season, but who did Paul have to work with? West? Now that he actually has teammates he'll put up better numbers.</div> nash played for canada, and likely got way more minutes.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post">nash played for canada, and likely got way more minutes.</div> Mmmm...no he didn't, and Canada didn't even make it lol, we just played some exhibition games this summer.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Mmmm...no he didn't, and Canada didn't even make it lol, we just played some exhibition games this summer.</div> he played none the less though right? so then that wouldnt give paul an advantage.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheFreshPrince:</div><div class="quote_post">he played none the less though right? so then that wouldnt give paul an advantage.</div> No, him and Magloire don't/haven't been playing recently. I don't think it gives Paul any edge anyways, people want to constantly say the game is different from the NBA, then Paul playing in the international game should not give him an advantage over Nash in the season? If you want to make an argument, just say Paul will (should) improve because he's a second year player.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">Don't act like I'm the only guy who think Wade is the best player in the league. Many analysts and experts have already agreed with this. He won and ESPY for "best NBA player". Obviously I can tell by your name that you are a Kobe fan-boy, so don't act like your opinion is unbiased and completely correct. I may not be unbiased either, but I know I'm not the only one with this opinion. I'd also argue that Wade is more electrifying than Kobe and Bron. He had more NBATV top 10 appearances, and he became the fan-favourite in Japan over Lebron, to the point where he got a standing-O the game he didn't even play in.</div> Wow, the ESPY award LOL, don't even start with that joke. Any award base on popular voting, Kobe won't win it. Just because D-Wade had a great final doesn't mean he is automatically better than kobe and Lebron. My username has Kobe but didn't my list also say Lebron could be number #1 and Kobe #2 and vise versa? It going to be between kobe and Lebron unless D-Wade proves he'll posts up better number than Kobe and Lebron for 82 games. Then again, your whole argument is since D-Wade is the most popular player in the world, he is the best player in the league, I'm speechless
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting kobe4life:</div><div class="quote_post">It going to be between kobe and Lebron unless D-Wade proves he'll posts up better number than Kobe and Lebron for 82 games.</div> What "numbers" are you referring to? By 82games.com's Roland Rating (their per-possession rating for players based on PER, counterpart-PER, and OnCourt/OffCourt impact) Dwayne Wade actually rates ahead of Kobe. Based on PER, Wade is a fraction of point behind Kobe. And when you use their actual Assist% and team pace data rather than the estimates in PER, Wade's PER turns out to be slightly better (top three are LeBron, Wade, and Kobe with 29.9, 29.3, and 29.0 respectively). They're all so close, though, that the difference is almost neglible. Be careful when you say Kobe definitely has the better numbers. Numbers can tell you a lot of different things, depending on which ones you choose to focus on.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting kobe4life:</div><div class="quote_post">It going to be between kobe and Lebron unless D-Wade proves he'll posts up better number than Kobe and Lebron for 82 games.</div> What "numbers" are you referring to? By 82games.com's Roland Rating (their per-possession rating for players based on PER, counterpart-PER, and OnCourt/OffCourt impact) Dwayne Wade actually rates ahead of Kobe. Based on PER, Wade is a fraction of point behind Kobe. And when you use their actual Assist% and team pace data rather than the estimates in PER, Wade's PER turns out to be slightly better (top three are LeBron, Wade, and Kobe with 29.9, 29.3, and 29.0 respectively). They're all so close, though, that the difference is almost neglible. Be careful when you say Kobe definitely has the better numbers. Numbers can tell you a lot of different things, depending on which ones you choose to focus on.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">What "numbers" are you referring to? By 82games.com's Roland Rating (their per-possession rating for players based on PER, counterpart-PER, and OnCourt/OffCourt impact) Dwayne Wade actually rates ahead of Kobe. Based on PER, Wade is a fraction of point behind Kobe. And when you use their actual Assist% and team pace data rather than the estimates in PER, Wade's PER turns out to be slightly better (top three are LeBron, Wade, and Kobe with 29.9, 29.3, and 29.0 respectively). They're all so close, though, that the difference is almost neglible. Be careful when you say Kobe definitely has the better numbers. Numbers can tell you a lot of different things, depending on which ones you choose to focus on.</div> The bad thing about PER is that it does not account for the teammates around them or defense. Although, Wade is a nice enough player. #7 on my 06-07 list. Heh.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting huevonkiller:</div><div class="quote_post">The bad thing about PER is that it does not account for the teammates around them or defense. Although, Wade is a nice enough player. #7 on my 06-07 list. Heh.</div> Alright, but he said Wade's "numbers" weren't in the same class as LeBron's and Kobe's. I don't think that's true. At least for the numbers I've seen. The big difference numbers-wise, which I don't want to gloss over, is that LeBron and Kobe played far more minutes than Wade during the season. Honestly, because of the way Wade plays, I'm not sure if he's capable of playing 40+ minutes a game for 80 games a year. Maybe that's what kobe4life was referring to. And I'm not completely convinced that if you took into account quality of teammates and opponents faced, Kobe's defensive impact would be better than Wade's. He has a ton of ground to make up, considering how low his raw plus minus defensive numbers are. Being a strong one-on-one perimeter player is important, don't get me wrong, but I think the importance of it as far as overall defensive impact is often overstated. Joe Dumars was a great one-on-one defender, to take one example, but he was part of some terrible defensive teams in the 90s. In contrast, great defensive big man are almost never on bad defensive teams. As I see it, the impact Kobe, LeBron, and Wade have on offense far outstrips any impact they might have on the defensive end.
Alright the reason Nash is low is because he just isn't a top 10 player. Sure he's the MVP, but the MVP and best player in the league are totally different things. Sometimes they are the same guy, but in this case no. As amazing as Nash is on offense he is a horrible defensive player. And defense is 50% of the game. Nash has to be the worst defensive player nominated in here. I can never recall the NBA giving the MVP award to a guy who only plays good on 1 side of the court before Steve Nash. He's vital to the Suns, but do you guys really think he's a better player than guys like T-Mac? Pierce? Duncan? KG? Nowitzki? I could go on.
^^Since when did dirk play defense? and bron's d is pretty damn weak, yet many think he should be mvp
1. LeBron James 2. Kobe Bryant 3. Dirk Nowitzki 4. Dwayne Wade 5. Elton Brand 6. Steve Nash 7. Kevin Garnett 8. Carmelo Anthony 9. Andrei Kirilenko 10. Dwight Howard I know my list is very surprising but Dwight Howard is going to have a breakout year this season. Andrei Kirilenko when healthy is good. Carmelo Anthony I dropped because I don't think his team will have much support on him. Personally the rest of the list is self-explanatory.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">How do so many people have Dirk over Wade?</div> Dirk's PER... That's why.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Alright, but he said Wade's "numbers" weren't in the same class as LeBron's and Kobe's. I don't think that's true. At least for the numbers I've seen. The big difference numbers-wise, which I don't want to gloss over, is that LeBron and Kobe played far more minutes than Wade during the season. Honestly, because of the way Wade plays, I'm not sure if he's capable of playing 40+ minutes a game for 80 games a year. Maybe that's what kobe4life was referring to. And I'm not completely convinced that if you took into account quality of teammates and opponents faced, Kobe's defensive impact would be better than Wade's. He has a ton of ground to make up, considering how low his raw plus minus defensive numbers are. Being a strong one-on-one perimeter player is important, don't get me wrong, but I think the importance of it as far as overall defensive impact is often overstated. Joe Dumars was a great one-on-one defender, to take one example, but he was part of some terrible defensive teams in the 90s. In contrast, great defensive big man are almost never on bad defensive teams. As I see it, the impact Kobe, LeBron, and Wade have on offense far outstrips any impact they might have on the defensive end.</div> I agree with most of your post, but Wade still plays with Shaq though. This is what PER doesn't account for.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting huevonkiller:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree with most of your post, but Wade still plays with Shaq though. This is what PER doesn't account for.</div> What impact do you think him playing with Shaq had? Based on the player pair data at 82games, it appears that Wade's PER would have been higher without Shaq.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">What impact do you think him playing with Shaq had? Based on the player pair data at 82games, it appears that Wade's PER would have been higher without Shaq.</div> Interesting, I'd like to hear more. I thought I had heard the opposite before, which is why I made the claim. It is possible, that I have been too lazy to confirm my assumptions, which in that case, I would apologize. What do you mean by "player pair" though? I'll reserve judgement until you repost. I know his TS% falls belows Kobe's without Shaq, and he snatches more rebounds, partially due to the fact that he roams more on defense. BTW, defense, in a close race, makes the difference.
