Nash is OFFICIALLY better than John Stockton

Discussion in 'Out of Bounds' started by ROCK4LIFE, Jul 19, 2006.

  1. Mr.Wade

    Mr.Wade JBB The Canadian Dream

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,374
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Moo2k4
    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What you do in the regular season isn't nearly as important as what you do in the playoffs.</div>

    From what I recall, Kobe without Shaq, missed the playoffs last year, and this year exited in teh 1st round to none other than Steve Nash's team.

    No excuses, dont' say Nash won because he had better suppporting cast, it's not his fault he has good management, his team beat Kobe's team and made the WCF, period. Therefore he did something in playoffs, unlike Kobe who underperformed in the playoffs compared to his regular season.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Theres no changing anyones mind because the arguments for Nash > Stockton or Kidd are either weak or being sufficiently rebutted against. I've read every single post on this thread and the arguments for Nash aren't very convincing or numerous at all.
    </div>

    I'm not arguing about Nash, Stockton and Kidd. I know Kidd and Stockton are better than Nash.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">To put an MVP in perspective....lets switch sports real quick. A few years ago, ARod won an MVP on a team that didn't even break .500. That shows how important an MVP is. You don't even have to be on a winning team to get it, it's just preferred.</div>

    Don't bash the MVP award like that just because your home boy has never recieved the award, I'm sure if Kobe got at least 1, just 1, you would consider it a huge acheivement and a milestone in his career. Not some worthless thing that is meaningless.
     
  2. Moo2K4

    Moo2K4 NBA West Producer

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2003
    Messages:
    11,768
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Alburnett, Iowa
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Wade:</div><div class="quote_post">From what I recall, Kobe without Shaq, missed the playoffs last year, and this year exited in teh 1st round to none other than Steve Nash's team.

    No excuses, dont' say Nash won because he had better suppporting cast, it's not his fault he has good management, his team beat Kobe's team and made the WCF, period. Therefore he did something in playoffs, unlike Kobe who underperformed in the playoffs compared to his regular season.</div>You're right, Kobe didn't make the playoffs in year one of the post-Shaq era. However, what you neglect to remember is that, prior to Rudy T leaving, they were a top 6 team out West and were having a solid season. When he left and Cleamons had to take over, the team fell apart.

    Nextly, you're right once again, Kobe did get ousted in the first round this year by none other than Steve Nash and the Suns. However, I don't see how you can disregard the supporting cast. Kobe's was good for the first few games, then fell apart. The night he dropped 50, he gave them every chance in the world to win, but the rest of his guys couldn't pull through. Nash on the other hand, got contributions everywhere. Bell had a good series, Marion was being solid, and Barbosa absolutely tore them up. Plus, to top it all off, Boris Diaw had a good series. To me, the supporting cast was the difference in the series. If the Lakers shut down Nash or anyone else, there was always someone else stepping up. However, if Kobe got shutdown, no one else was around to pick up the slack. So, to say it wasn't because of the supporting cast is absolutely ludicrous.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Don't bash the MVP award like that just because your home boy has never recieved the award, I'm sure if Kobe got at least 1, just 1, you would consider it a huge acheivement and a milestone in his career. Not some worthless thing that is meaningless.</div>I'm not bashing the MVP award. I simply was proving you wrong. That just because you have a personal accolade that it translates to team success. It doesn't, and that's pure fact. And you're wrong, if Kobe got one, I still wouldn't care as much as you think. An MVP is overrated, and the only thing that's completely meaningful is that title. 10 to 1 says if you ask Nash which he'd rather have, he'd rather have the ring and trophy that DWade and co. got.
     
  3. Mamba

    Mamba The King is Back Staff Member Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2003
    Messages:
    42,357
    Likes Received:
    502
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Temecula
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">You're right, Kobe didn't make the playoffs in year one of the post-Shaq era. However, what you neglect to remember is that, prior to Rudy T leaving, they were a top 6 team out West and were having a solid season. When he left and Cleamons had to take over, the team fell apart.

    Nextly, you're right once again, Kobe did get ousted in the first round this year by none other than Steve Nash and the Suns. However, I don't see how you can disregard the supporting cast. Kobe's was good for the first few games, then fell apart. The night he dropped 50, he gave them every chance in the world to win, but the rest of his guys couldn't pull through. Nash on the other hand, got contributions everywhere. Bell had a good series, Marion was being solid, and Barbosa absolutely tore them up. Plus, to top it all off, Boris Diaw had a good series. To me, the supporting cast was the difference in the series. If the Lakers shut down Nash or anyone else, there was always someone else stepping up. However, if Kobe got shutdown, no one else was around to pick up the slack. So, to say it wasn't because of the supporting cast is absolutely ludicrous.

    I'm not bashing the MVP award. I simply was proving you wrong. That just because you have a personal accolade that it translates to team success. It doesn't, and that's pure fact. And you're wrong, if Kobe got one, I still wouldn't care as much as you think. An MVP is overrated, and the only thing that's completely meaningful is that title. 10 to 1 says if you ask Nash which he'd rather have, he'd rather have the ring and trophy that DWade and co. got.</div>


    Ahem, Cleamons didn't take over. Frank Hamblen did, which is worse.
     
  4. Vintage

    Vintage Defeating Communism...

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2003
    Messages:
    4,822
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    38
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Wade:</div><div class="quote_post">This is just full of Nash haters... I can't even bother to reply, because there's no changing anyone's minds. Especially Laker fans.</div>


    Laughable.

    We are haters? Why? Because we don't think Nash is the second best PG in NBA history.

    This post is nearly as laughable as the OP.
     
  5. Manhops23

    Manhops23 Hi Rim my name is Lebron!

    Joined:
    May 20, 2006
    Messages:
    365
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    KC
    Stockton is way better than nash . Nash will have to ball ilke he hasfor the last two years for their to be a comparison.
     
  6. ROCK4LIFE

    ROCK4LIFE Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    2,110
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">I almost laughed myself to tears when I read this. WOW. Shwn Marion was never THAT good until Nash came? Have you EVER watched him play? Did you ever hear about him prior to Nash coming and making him a household name? If you had, you'd known he was a consistent double double guy almost every night. Before Nash, he had a career average of 17.92 ppg and 9.41 rpg. For that matter, he had arguably his best year before Nash came there, when he averaged 21.2ppg, 9.5rpg, 2.28spg, and 1.17bpg.

    Now lets switch over to Amare. Not sure if you remember, but he won ROY over Yao Ming his first year in the league. He also averaged 20.6ppg and 9.0rpg. Yea...a ROY and and 20/9 season is so awful, I can tell why he needed Nash.

    Now lets switch to Joe Johnson. The year before Nash came, he averaged 16.7ppg. He leaves the Suns and bolts to Atlanta where he has a career year, averaging 20.2ppg and 6.5apg. Yea....he totally needed Nash to be successful too, that's why he did well pre-Steve Nash and post-Steve Nash in Atlanta.

    Now....onto QRich. Prior to coming to Phoenix, he had a career high of 17.2ppg which he established as a Clipper. He also had a good post game prior to going to the Suns. If anything, playing for the Suns hurt him. He became nothing more than a chucker from behind the arc, completely abandoning the post game that he used effectively as a Clipp and at DePaul.

    Onto Raja Bell we go now. Prior to last season he had a couple seasons of averaging double figures in Utah. Beyond that, he was still regarded as one of the top defenders in the league. And how is his defense overrated? He did an admirable job against Kobe in the playoffs, as you should note that the only game Bell missed, Kobe exploded for 50, every other game he was held in check. Beyond that, he did a good job against Kobe in the 01-02 Finals when he was with Philly.

    Ok...I think I'm done now.</div>
    Great way of takin my words out of context. I didn't say they weren't good players before Nash, I simply stated the OBVIOUS in that Nash has made them even BETTER players than they used to be. The fact that we even know who Boris Diaw is proves my point. I do have to disagree and say Bell didn't do anything new against Kobe but flop all around the court. He didn't hold Kobe from scoring 50. Kobe passed up his opportunities to get his teammates involved, which might've hurt his numbers offensivley but was prolly the sole reason his team even got to 7 games. Bell is a good defender, but Byron Russell was an even better defender in his hay.

    Stockton was a better defender than Nash, easily. But Nash is better overrall in a sense he's better at makin his team better. I don't know anybody outside of Magic who's better at maximizing his teams potential.
     
  7. durvasa

    durvasa JBB Rockets Fan

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2004
    Messages:
    5,098
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    38
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">But Nash is better overrall in a sense he's better at makin his team better. </div>

    If this is the crux of your argument, you need to show some evidence for it. Specifically, explain why you think Stockton was not as good at making his team better. Can you point to some specific examples?

    Also, explain how it is that Dirk Nowitzki improved by leaps and bounds after Nash left Dallas?
     
  8. Moo2K4

    Moo2K4 NBA West Producer

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2003
    Messages:
    11,768
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Alburnett, Iowa
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Great way of takin my words out of context. I didn't say they weren't good players before Nash, I simply stated the OBVIOUS in that Nash has made them even BETTER players than they used to be. The fact that we even know who Boris Diaw is proves my point. I do have to disagree and say Bell didn't do anything new against Kobe but flop all around the court. He didn't hold Kobe from scoring 50. Kobe passed up his opportunities to get his teammates involved, which might've hurt his numbers offensivley but was prolly the sole reason his team even got to 7 games. Bell is a good defender, but Byron Russell was an even better defender in his hay.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, let's not forget that Marion, Amare, Bell, Joe Johnson etc, NEVER played that good until Nash got there.</div>That's what you said. I think that pretty much says that they weren't that good until Nash came. Note that you said they never played that good prior to Nash, which is completely wrong. Shawn Marion was already an All Star, Stoudemire was already a ROY and had a 20/9 season, Joe Johnson was already developing into a great player and got better after leaving Phoenix, the system actually KILLED Q, turning him into a shooter and taking him away from his great post game that he had. So, regardless, that's what you said, and to me, it looks like you're saying they weren't that good.

    Next, the Boris Diaw point. The reason we didn't know who he was is because, oh my, he played for the HAWKS. Yes, the Atlanta Hawks. I'm not sure if you realized that, so let it sink in for a moment. Yes, I think that's a good reason to not know of someone. Oh, and beyond that, in his tenure there, he never, not once, really got a great chance of doing anything. He was condemned to be one of the last men off the bench. So, it's not because Nash all the sudden gave him talent he never had by playing with him, it's because he got a chance that we know of him. He was always capable, he was just never given a chance, period.

    Next, you're right, Kobe did take a backseat that series. However, in game seven, when they needed him, he was nowhere. And while he certainly could have been more aggressive, you have to give Bell credit on defense. He stayed in front of him and didn't give him a lot of space. So, while Kobe still did well, it was much, much harder for him to do so. And beyon that, Bell was signed BECAUSE of his defense. They didn't sign him to score, he just did that as an added perk. He was brought over for his defense, to guard the Kobes and TMacs and LeBrons of the league.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Stockton was a better defender than Nash, easily. But Nash is better overrall in a sense he's better at makin his team better. I don't know anybody outside of Magic who's better at maximizing his teams potential.</div>This is where you're COMPLETELY wrong. How can you say that Stockton didn't make his teammates better. Look at your beloved Bryon Russell. While he was in Utah, he had his best years. And, oh my, look who his point guard was. That's right, John Stockton. For that matter, after he left Stockton and Utah, he never averaged more than 4.5 ppg, and that's after 4 double digit scoring seasons as a Jazz, and a fifth where he was less than half a point from double figures.

    And also, if Steve Nash is so great at maximizing potential, why wasn't Dirk an MVP candidate prior to his departure? Until Nash left, Dirk was never considered an MVP candidate. The next two years after he left, bam, two top 5 MVP finishes.

    Also, why is Steve Nash so great at maximizing potential? I hate to tell you this, but it's not just him. The reason why people succeed in Phoenix is because of the system. It allows people to run and you get a lot of easy layups because of it. Nash, I hate to tell you this, had nothing to do with Amare becoming great. The system did. And the fact that, that year, the Suns had 4 other people in double figures, so you could never really take your eye off one guy, cause if you left someone open, they could kill you, no matter who it was. And that wasn't because of Nash. As I stated before, note that Marion was an All Star before Nash came, Stoudemire was on the rise, same with Joe Johnson, and, again, the way they played probably hurt QRich. And, like I said with Diaw, he was never given the chance, so I don't believe your argument that it was because of Nash that he succeeded. It was because of the system and the fact that he was finally given minutes. So, unless you can come up with a LEGIT reason as to why Nash is SO GREAT at maximizing potential and John Stockton wasn't good at it, you shouldn't even say something like that.
     
  9. og15

    og15 JBB *********

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,594
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    While I agree Nash is not better than Stockton or Kidd, neither is he better than Payton, you can't dismiss his MVP's. Now I don't feel he deserved 2 MVP's, and definately not the MVP this season, Lebron or Dirk should've won regular season MVP, but the media does love Nash (I mean he is a nice guy, and the "underdog"). The 04-05 one was more acceptable when you compare to this season, but even then, I think there were more worthy candidates.

    Either way, MVP is a very great accomplishment. It's truly sad that Nash winning 2 in a row has actually caused many people to lose respect for the MVP award.

    In terms of Nash's teammates, everyone on Phoenix was as good talent wise before he came. A guy like Amare averaged 24 PPG and 9 RPG after he came back from injury in 04-05, just look at for example how a guy like Bosh improved from 04-05 to 05-06, and Amare 03-04 was already better than the 04-05 Bosh, so if the surprising thing would've been him not averaging at least 24-25 PPG. Now just to boost that, the team starts playing a fast paced offense, they add shooters all around to open the floor, and of course, they get a very good PG, because having a PG that can create oppurtunities and also shoot opens things up for teamamtes too. A second year player coming out of high school is expected to improve, it would be like us crediting someone the Magic added if Dwight Howard averages 20 PPG next season, but were we not expecting him to be in that range anyways?

    Also about Diaw, anyone that watches him knows that saying Nash made him good or anything like this is pure stupidity. First of all, Diaw himself averages 6.1 APG and was #8 in the league in AP48 mins. Diaw was assisted on 52% of his makes, about the league average on made FG's, which means he was creating his own plays as much as anyone else. The Suns as a team assisted on 64% of ther makes, so he definately was not a product of being assisted. When Nash and Barbosa were not playin, Diaw put up 16-9-9 and 57% FG against the Spurs. Total in the 3 games Nash missed, he averaged 12.7 PPG, 10 RPG, 12.3 APG (including a 16 assists game), 4 TPG, 51.4% FG. Also in addition to Nash being out, this was after KT got injured, Barbosa was out in one, and Bell out in the other 2 with Brian Grant starting.

    He also put up 30 points on 11-16 FG in their final game of the playoffs. A game where the team had only 18 assists altogether.

    What you can't neglect though is that Nash does make teammates better in terms of how people use that phrase (because no one can really make another player better obviously). Like every other good PG, he will get you easier oppurtunities, and with his shooting, he helps spread the floor and make the pick and roll effective. What people (the media) have done though is act like he does it astronimically better than anyone else just because he has a team in which he dominates the playmaking, and everyone can shoot and score, and because they're in a fast paced system which allows for your numbers to be increase. This assumption they make is not accurate at all.
     
  10. ROCK4LIFE

    ROCK4LIFE Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    2,110
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Before Nash:

    Amare Stoudamire: 20.6pts

    Boris Diaw: 4.8pts

    Raja Bell: 12.3pts

    Eddie House: 5.8pts

    After Nash:

    Amare Stoudamire: 26pts (+6)

    Boris Diaw: 13.3pts (+9)

    Raja Bell: 14.7pts (+2)

    Eddie House: 9.8 (+3)

    There's the proof right there...........
     
  11. og15

    og15 JBB *********

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,594
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    You're neglecting something called MPG. Raja Bell's points actually didn't increase relative to minutes. Amare was a second year player out of highschool, you're a fool if you think he only improved because they got a new PG when he was averaging 24-9 post-AllStar the season before, and didn't even have a PG or the shooting presence on his team. Similarly, Boris Diaw is another young player, PER minute in ATL he was putting up about 9-5-5, he tore it up in Europe the summer of 05', and was their best player, with him going up from 18 to 30+ MPG, I'm not sure why it's a big deal.

    Eddie House put up better numbers in Sacramento and Charlotte, not a big deal, he could always score.

    Also if you look at Nash himself, his FG% and APG went up dramatically, he didn't improve as a player just so you know. The same effect of all the shooters, and the system happened to him just like it did to other players on the team. Though people seem to not realize that.
     
  12. ROCK4LIFE

    ROCK4LIFE Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    2,110
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">You're neglecting something called MPG. Raja Bell's points actually didn't increase relative to minutes. Amare was a second year player out of highschool, you're a fool if you think he only improved because they got a new PG when he was averaging 24-9 post-AllStar the season before, and didn't even have a PG or the shooting presence on his team. Similarly, Boris Diaw is another young player, PER minute in ATL he was putting up about 9-5-5, he tore it up in Europe the summer of 05', and was their best player, with him going up from 18 to 30+ MPG, I'm not sure why it's a big deal.</div>
    Ur makin silly excuses at this point. Bottom line, each player picked up their play runnin beside Steve Nash. Especially Boris Diaw, who I didn't know existed before comin to Phoenix. While you have to give players credit, Steve Nash makes players around him better.
     
  13. Trip

    Trip 2000000000000000000000000

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2003
    Messages:
    8,773
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    London/Mississauga, ON
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Ur makin silly excuses at this point. Bottom line, each player picked up their play runnin beside Steve Nash. Especially Boris Diaw, who I didn't know existed before comin to Phoenix. While you have to give players credit, Steve Nash makes players around him better.</div>
    If you never heard of Boris Diaw before the Suns, how dedicated a follower of the NBA could you be to make an "official" announcement?
     
  14. ChicagoSportsFan

    ChicagoSportsFan JBB JustBBall Rookie Team

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Yeah Nash is better than the Alltime assist and steals leader.

    people just dont understand how many championship teams that the Jordan ruined. Alot of players dont have rings because of him. Stocktons understanding of the game was immeasurable. Stockton is only second to 1PG and we know who that is.
     
  15. og15

    og15 JBB *********

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,594
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Ur makin silly excuses at this point. Bottom line, each player picked up their play runnin beside Steve Nash. Especially Boris Diaw, who I didn't know existed before comin to Phoenix. While you have to give players credit, Steve Nash makes players around him better.</div>
    Okay, so how come Nash picked up his play while playing next to them too? You have to realize that everyone makes each other better on that team, that's the whole point of the system, that's how it works.

    A PG's job generally is to "make others better", or more realistically get others easier oppurtunities, Nash doesn't do it more than other PG's, he's just in a faster paced system with better shooters and finishers than the average schmoo, which allows for much more assist oppurtunities.

    Again like already mentioned, why then did Dirk improve after Nash left. Why did Joe Johnson have a "better" season after leaving Phoenix and going to ATL.

    An explanation is not an excuse.
     
  16. Moo2K4

    Moo2K4 NBA West Producer

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2003
    Messages:
    11,768
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Alburnett, Iowa
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Ur makin silly excuses at this point. Bottom line, each player picked up their play runnin beside Steve Nash. Especially Boris Diaw, who I didn't know existed before comin to Phoenix. While you have to give players credit, Steve Nash makes players around him better.</div>Unless facts are excuses, no one here (except maybe you) are making excuses. The fact of the matter is that everyone that has played with or is with Steve Nash now, with the exclusion of maybe Diaw and James, were good before him, and have gotten better since he left. With Nash around, Dirk was never an MVP candidate. These last two seasons since Nash left, he has been. Joe Johnson never got to prove how good of a player he actually was while in Phoenix. He leaves Phoenix and averages career highs across the board. Stoudemire was coming in to his own regardless of Steve Nash. Marion was already an All Star. Steve Nash and the offense run in Phoenix RUINED QRich's game, turning him from a post-up guard to trey ball shooter (and not what I'd call a great one at that). Raja Bell was already known by most people because of his defense against in the Finals a few years back when the Lakers played Philly. And, as stated earlier, Diaw never had a chance in Atlanta. However, his per 40 (or 48, not sure) were still around 9/5/5, which is pretty respectable. And also, for you to not know who Diaw was shows that you're obviously not a hardcore NBA fan. So, knowing that, that in itself could almost disprove everything about your argument. And, as og15 mentioned, PGs don't make players better, they just give them easier opportunities. That's as simple as it gets.
     

Share This Page