Whoa, Smush Parker a better defender than Eric Snow? No way, it's not even close. Eric Snow is one of the best defensive guards in the league and can defend either position. I'd swap Snow for Smush in a heartbeat on this Laker team. Snow is the ideal PG in a halfcourt offense and doesn't make careless mistakes with the basketball. The Lakers role players are talented, but not until the final month of the season, did this team start to gel. All season long the role players were very inconsistent and Kobe had to carry them to victories. They've come around and are playing great basketball in the playoffs, but the Lakers you see now is a 180 of what they were earlier in the season. Looking at Zydrunas Ilgauskas gamelog, he's been steady with his production all season. The Cavs have more depth than the Lakers, especially in the frontcourt. When Odom is having an off night, the Lakers didn't really have anyone else to count on, Kwame Brown was only getting the team 6/6 until Mihm got injured for the final 17 games. For Cleveland Gooden was their inconsistent starter, but they have Varejao or Marshall to pick up his slack.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> If you are talking about past reputations, wasn't Lamar Odom the #1 option in Wade's rookie season and Odom's only season in Miami? Kwame Brown was the #1 pick. Smush and Brian Cook haven't had a past reputation though. </div> Lamar Odom is just ONE player who had the reputation of being above average (though wildly inconsistent until the last month of the season). Kwame Brown had the reputation as being one of the worst draft picks of all times, even at points of this season, his labellings withstood with the consensus, so I fail to see how a player who has been practically been laughed at his whole career can be used to defend your point. It was not until the Lakers started to gel in the final month of the season that Kwame started to excel, as did the rest of his Laker teammates. Smush and Brian Cook don't have reputations, and neither do Luke Walton, Sasha or pretty much any of the main Laker role players, thus making Kobe's team not only younger, but less experienced and essentially less talented then Lebron's (mostly) veteran teammates. Add to that the fact that all of these untested players were playing in a brand new offensive scheme with the "most difficult" superstar to play with, and you could have had the recipe for a stretch where the Lakers would lose game after game due to the role players' inconsistensies (which were rampant throughout most of the season...LO would drop 10, 9 and 7 one day and 6 13 and 2 the next), but however, it was Kobe keeping the Lakers in not only the hunt for the playoffs but leading them down the stretch to the point that he would single handedly win games for them because the cast was just that unreliable. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Most of these players weren't well known before they came in with Kobe or Lebron. </div> You can justify that for Kobe as I mentioned above, but how can you justify that for Lebron? Donyell Marshall was well known for his Raptor days and has been in the league for a while now as a solid role player. Eric Snow (who you didn't mention in your list of "mentionable role players on the Cavs" list is still an excellent defender and an above-average floor general who is well known for his Sixers days. Illgauskas is a former All-Star that is known to the general NBA fan (assuming they watch a little more then annual Christmas day matchups between the Heat and Lakers). Flip Murray was known as a reliable backup for Ray Allen in Seattle and had excellent seasons in 2002 and 2003 (I believe) and solidified himself as an excellent starter o nthe Sonics as well. Damon Jones was known from last year, although only has a spot up shooter, but he was known nonethless. I agree that the Lakers supporting cast is not essentially as "bad" now as it may seem, but at some points of the season, it sure felt like Kobe was the only one out there. Furthermore, I'm just arguing against your "none of Lebron's teammtes were known" point as it can be easily said that players such as Jones and Marshall and much more known then the likes of Brian Cook and Smush Parker. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Actually Lebron had 31 7 and 7 and Kobe had 35 5 and 5, so I am in fact hinting at picking Lebron over Kobe in the MVP race. </div> Whoops, sorry about that, I actually meant Lebron over Kobe; just a name-typo. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> WHY ARE YOU SAYING THAT THEY AREN'T TALENTED. STOP LISTENING TO ESPN AND ALL THE ANALYSTS SAYING THAT IT'S JUST KOBE. His supporting cast isn't that damn bad. </div> I didnt really say its "that damn bad", I just think his cast is worse then Lebron's when looking at the Lakers' season performances in comparison to the Cavs. The Lakers took a really long time to gel and be on the same page, and you can't even say that it's Kobe's fault for not trusting such unreliable teammates. If you've watched Lakers games from November through to March, you would see the wild number of inconsistencies present on the Laker team aside from Kobe. And even through all of that, the Lakers managed to put a hold on the playoff picture and would not let themselves be taken out, thanks in large part to Kobe. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Did you forget that Shaq led the Magic to the Finals? He coulda won an MVP then. </div> Playoffs don't count. That regular season, it was basically a race between David Robinson and Hakeem, with Robinson winning. Robinson led the Spurs to a 62-20 mark and won the MVP award. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> That's BS. Conference doesn't mean a thing. All that matters is the WINS. When you look at the record it doesn't say how many wins you got in the East or West, it's OVERALL. Just how the MVP should be decided, OVERALL. Not by 81 point games or highlights, it should be looked at from a OVERALL standard. If your in the West, tough look for you, if your in the East hey, you get a better shot. At the end of the day it doesn't matter. You just have to live with it and play. </div> I have absolutely nothing against Nash winning it, I just think it boils down to one's definition of what exactly an "MVP" is. Basically, I judge that Kobe was the most intergal part of the Lakers team and when this team was down and out with incosistencies from it's role players, Kobe time and time again delivered and up until April, basically carried this team on his shoulders while they began to gel and assert themselves. That is why I believed he should have won MVP. Not because of 81 points (why does everyone think he should win it because of that? That's ridiculous), not because of 62 in 3 quarters. He made the most out of his teammates that were regularly inconsistent, overcame a crapload of adversity and was clearly the best player in the league. However, he did not have enough wins and that plays a factor as well. I have no problems with Nash winning, because I could easily defend his side as well, but I personally believe Kobe should have won, although his win count will be hold against him, and rightfully so, but leading a team that's not only young and inexperienced, but seemingly "less talented" yes well, it was quite a feat I believe. However, I'm glad that this MVP award got out of the way because I can openly say that Nash will not win it for a 3rd straight year, so the award is basically up for grabs between Kobe, Lebron, Wade and the lieks of Dirk in the coming years. I believe Kobe will win the award the year he leads his team to the 1-3 best record in the West. I can't say when exactly it will happen, but assuming the Lakers make the right personnell moves, it will happen. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Like I mentioned guys like AI, Barkley others has had MAJOR individual seasons and lead their team to the Playoffs(low seed) and while they were in a way deserving for the MVP, they didn't get it just because of their seeding. So why should Kobe be any special? </div> This may contradict what I said earlier, but that is true though.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Whoa, Smush Parker a better defender than Eric Snow? No way, it's not even close. Eric Snow is one of the best defensive guards in the league and can defend either position. I'd swap Snow for Smush in a heartbeat on this Laker team. Snow is the ideal PG in a halfcourt offense and doesn't make careless mistakes with the basketball. The Lakers role players are talented, but not until the final month of the season, did this team start to gel. All season long the role players were very inconsistent and Kobe had to carry them to victories. They've come around and are playing great basketball in the playoffs, but the Lakers you see now is a 180 of what they were earlier in the season. Looking at Zydrunas Ilgauskas gamelog, he's been steady with his production all season. The Cavs have more depth than the Lakers, especially in the frontcourt. When Odom is having an off night, the Lakers didn't really have anyone else to count on, Kwame Brown was only getting the team 6/6 until Mihm got injured for the final 17 games. For Cleveland Gooden was their inconsistent starter, but they have Varejao or Marshall to pick up his slack.</div> He asked me if I would rather have Damon Jones over Smush Parker and I said no, I'd rather have Smush. It wasn't about Snow at all.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Whoa, Smush Parker a better defender than Eric Snow? No way, it's not even close. Eric Snow is one of the best defensive guards in the league and can defend either position. I'd swap Snow for Smush in a heartbeat on this Laker team. Snow is the ideal PG in a halfcourt offense and doesn't make careless mistakes with the basketball. The Lakers role players are talented, but not until the final month of the season, did this team start to gel. All season long the role players were very inconsistent and Kobe had to carry them to victories. They've come around and are playing great basketball in the playoffs, but the Lakers you see now is a 180 of what they were earlier in the season. Looking at Zydrunas Ilgauskas gamelog, he's been steady with his production all season. The Cavs have more depth than the Lakers, especially in the frontcourt. When Odom is having an off night, the Lakers didn't really have anyone else to count on, Kwame Brown was only getting the team 6/6 until Mihm got injured for the final 17 games. For Cleveland Gooden was their inconsistent starter, but they have Varejao or Marshall to pick up his slack.</div> He asked me if I would rather have Damon Jones over Smush Parker and I said no, I'd rather have Smush. It wasn't about Snow at all. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post">Lamar Odom is just ONE player who had the reputation of being above average (though wildly inconsistent until the last month of the season). Kwame Brown had the reputation as being one of the worst draft picks of all times, even at points of this season, his labellings withstood with the consensus, so I fail to see how a player who has been practically been laughed at his whole career can be used to defend your point. It was not until the Lakers started to gel in the final month of the season that Kwame started to excel, as did the rest of his Laker teammates. Smush and Brian Cook don't have reputations, and neither do Luke Walton, Sasha or pretty much any of the main Laker role players, thus making Kobe's team not only younger, but less experienced and essentially less talented then Lebron's (mostly) veteran teammates. Add to that the fact that all of these untested players were playing in a brand new offensive scheme with the "most difficult" superstar to play with, and you could have had the recipe for a stretch where the Lakers would lose game after game due to the role players' inconsistensies (which were rampant throughout most of the season...LO would drop 10, 9 and 7 one day and 6 13 and 2 the next), but however, it was Kobe keeping the Lakers in not only the hunt for the playoffs but leading them down the stretch to the point that he would single handedly win games for them because the cast was just that unreliable. </div> Kwame was the #1 pick, he's obviously talented. He was laughed at for the same reason Micheal Olowakandi has been, underachieving. Everyone knows he still has talent and know that he COULD break out at any time. You are talking about "cavs players are obviously more talented", so I'm just saying how many of Lebron's role players were a past #1 pick? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post">You can justify that for Kobe as I mentioned above, but how can you justify that for Lebron? Donyell Marshall was well known for his Raptor days and has been in the league for a while now as a solid role player. Eric Snow (who you didn't mention in your list of "mentionable role players on the Cavs" list is still an excellent defender and an above-average floor general who is well known for his Sixers days. Illgauskas is a former All-Star that is known to the general NBA fan (assuming they watch a little more then annual Christmas day matchups between the Heat and Lakers). Flip Murray was known as a reliable backup for Ray Allen in Seattle and had excellent seasons in 2002 and 2003 (I believe) and solidified himself as an excellent starter o nthe Sonics as well. Damon Jones was known from last year, although only has a spot up shooter, but he was known nonethless. I agree that the Lakers supporting cast is not essentially as "bad" now as it may seem, but at some points of the season, it sure felt like Kobe was the only one out there. Furthermore, I'm just arguing against your "none of Lebron's teammtes were known" point as it can be easily said that players such as Jones and Marshall and much more known then the likes of Brian Cook and Smush Parker.</div> Donyell Marshall has been a solid role player. Eric Snow is known for his past, he's way past his prime right now. Flip Murray hasn't really been known. Jones was known as a 3 pt shooter. You are acting like he has multiple All-stars on his team as role players. They had the reputation of being a solid NBA player, nothing more, nothing else. (other than of course Z) Lakers players are YOUNG, they haven't had a chance to prove anything yet and have solid NBA seasons. Cleveland's role players are better than LA's, but it's not a big enough difference to where you put Kobe ahead of Lebron because Lebron has slightly more known role players, when they both put up similar numbers. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post">Playoffs don't count. That regular season, it was basically a race between David Robinson and Hakeem, with Robinson winning. Robinson led the Spurs to a 62-20 mark and won the MVP award.</div> I guess 60-22 definetely isn't enough to even being in contention for an MVP, especially when you avg 26.6 ppg 11.0 rpg and 2.13 bpg. He only played 54 games, which is why he didn't win it, but he was definetely in the running for the MVP this year. You acted like he didn't do anything for the Magic when in fact the Magic are still feeling his loss to this day. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post">However, he did not have enough wins and that plays a factor as well. I have no problems with Nash winning, because I could easily defend his side as well, but I personally believe Kobe should have won, although his win count will be hold against him, and rightfully so, but leading a team that's not only young and inexperienced, but seemingly "less talented" yes well, it was quite a feat I believe. </div> Dude, Nash's supporting cast was worse than Kobe's, IMO. Other than Marion, who else had you ever heard of? Raja Bell? Boris Diaw a guy that the Hawks didn't want, the freaking Hawks? Eddie House? Leandro Barbosa? Kurt Thomas is the only one that had done anything at all in the league and he was supposedly over the hill and not supposed to be a good fit for the Suns. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post">However, I'm glad that this MVP award got out of the way because I can openly say that Nash will not win it for a 3rd straight year, so the award is basically up for grabs between Kobe, Lebron, Wade and the lieks of Dirk in the coming years. I believe Kobe will win the award the year he leads his team to the 1-3 best record in the West. I can't say when exactly it will happen, but assuming the Lakers make the right personnell moves, it will happen.</div> Why won't Nash win it again? If Amare comes back, they could easily win 65 games next year and that would be good for either a 1 or 2 seed in the West. He could avg 12+ assists next year just dropping it off to Amare. Is it likely that Nash wins it next year, No, but saying that he absolutely won't win it is bad. Kobe will win it if he ever leads his team to a division title or at least in contention for the division title. btw, you forgot Dwight Howard, he'll be in the running in a couple of years and hopefully will get at least 1.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting GatorsowntheSEC:</div><div class="quote_post">He asked me if I would rather have Damon Jones over Smush Parker and I said no, I'd rather have Smush. It wasn't about Snow at all.</div> My bad. I stilll think Damon Jones is better than Smush Parker. All around talent, Smush is the better player, but what defines a role player is being able to specialize in a specific role. Smush doesn't specialize in anything for the Lakers, he's just a little better than the players backing him up. If Damon Jones was on the Lakers, he would be the starting PG because of his ability to shoot and create space on the court. If Smush was on the Cavs, he probably wouldn't make the team.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">My bad. I stilll think Damon Jones is better than Smush Parker. All around talent, Smush is the better player, but what defines a role player is being able to specialize in a specific role. Smush doesn't specialize in anything for the Lakers, he's just a little better than the players backing him up. If Damon Jones was on the Lakers, he would be the starting PG because of his ability to shoot and create space on the court. If Smush was on the Cavs, he probably wouldn't make the team.</div> Didn't the Cavs cut him already in his career?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting GatorsowntheSEC:</div><div class="quote_post">Didn't the Cavs cut him already in his career?</div> Exactly.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> He asked me if I would rather have Damon Jones over Smush Parker and I said no, I'd rather have Smush. It wasn't about Snow at all. </div> I think he was responding to you saying "Wouldn't you say that Lamar Odom is more talented then Big Z?(best bigs for both teams) Wouldn't you say that Smush is having a better season then Eric Snow?" (the only instance in which you mentioned Snow), so I think it was a case of misreading. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> so I'm just saying how many of Lebron's role players were a past #1 pick? </div> What does it matter how many of his teammates are past #1 overall picks? You're comparing potential that hadn't been fulfilled since 2001 to solid and reliable numbers? To make it more so direct,who would you have taken on the Magic prior to the starting of this season, Kwame Brown's "bustness" and failure to produce (and not to mention ability to fumble the ball 50 times a game) or someone like Donyell Marshall, who has been known to be solid? Why do people forget that prior to Chris Mihm's inury, Kwame was just as inconsistent and awkward to watch as he was before, with improvements being shown on his defense but not on the offensive end? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> You are acting like he has multiple All-stars on his team as role players. </div> No, he doesn't but he has hypotheticall much more "reliable" and "proven" veteran teammates, wouldn't you agree? I think thats the basis that many people make when saying Lebron's teammates are more talented then Kobe's (at this point atleast), including myself. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Cleveland's role players are better than LA's, but it's not a big enough difference to where you put Kobe ahead of Lebron because Lebron has slightly more known role players, when they both put up similar numbers. </div> That is actually a good point, but I think even that gap, no matter how "little" it may seem, makes a difference. In the end though, I like the fact that Nash won it so it doesn't even matter about Kobe or Lebron. Just because I WANTED someone to win, doesn't mean that they will. I don't even think Kobe got robbed because writers won't look at it from a fan's perspective. As Avery said before, Kobe needs to lead his team higher then 7th seed, as simple as that. But that in itself is going to be a mission with the cast around him, and even though they may not be as bad as many make them seem, they are sitll not good enough for the Lakers to be considered an "elite" team, wheras the Cavs are considered an "elite" team. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> You acted like he didn't do anything for the Magic when in fact the Magic are still feeling his loss to this day. </div> I don't know why you would think I tried to come across like that, I am not a Shaq hater just because I'm a Kobe fan so don't worry about that. And I wasn't sure as to why he didn't exactly win it but thanks for confirming my point. Robinson won it and justifiaby so, which was my original point anyway. I'm not trying to take away what Shaq did for the Magic, Lakers, NBA, whatever, Shaq is Shaq, but each of his seasons can be justified as to why he didn't win it. As for the 94' season, Hakeem won it and If I'm correct then that was one of his best seasons as a pro. I don't really think Shaq could have beat out Hakeem in his absolute prime in terms of MVP voting, especially when the Rockets record was excellent as well. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Dude, Nash's supporting cast was worse than Kobe's, IMO. </div> Yeah, that can definetly be justified but however, the players within the Suns system are high-octane shooting players that thrive off open jumpshots, which Nash creates for them. None of them are really well known, but they have proved to be reliable and solid role players, have they not? Contrary to popular belief, I do believe Nash was responsible for making the Suns team what they are and aside from Kidd, no other point guard (no, not even the beloved Billups, who still baffles me as to why he was actually a contender for MVP) could have done the same. However though, credit needs to be given to the system that D'Antoni runs as well, as that seems to have been lost in the midst of all the Nash hoopla. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Why won't Nash win it again? If Amare comes back, they could easily win 65 games next year and that would be good for either a 1 or 2 seed in the West. </div> If that situation unfolds, it is much more likely that Amare would win it then Nash, IMO. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Kobe will win it if he ever leads his team to a division title or at least in contention for the division title </div> True. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> btw, you forgot Dwight Howard, he'll be in the running in a couple of years and hopefully will get at least 1. </div> As well as 'Melo and Bosh.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post"> What does it matter how many of his teammates are past #1 overall picks? You're comparing potential that hadn't been fulfilled since 2001 to solid and reliable numbers? To make it more so direct,who would you have taken on the Magic prior to the starting of this season, Kwame Brown's "bustness" and failure to produce (and not to mention ability to fumble the ball 50 times a game) or someone like Donyell Marshall, who has been known to be solid? Why do people forget that prior to Chris Mihm's inury, Kwame was just as inconsistent and awkward to watch as he was before, with improvements being shown on his defense but not on the offensive end?</div> Honestly I would have said Kwame, I like the projects. Put him alongside a legit big man like Dwight Howard and let Dwight work with him and he will have more desire and change his attitude and work ethic and will be a capable big in this league. This is the same reason that I was so happy with the Darko trade. I honestly wasn't expecting us to win this year and make the playoffs anyway, so Kwame would have been the better choice for the Magic, IMO. For a playoff contender, Donyell Marshall for sure, but for a rebuilding club like the Magic, I would take Kwame. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No, he doesn't but he has hypotheticall much more "reliable" and "proven" veteran teammates, wouldn't you agree? I think thats the basis that many people make when saying Lebron's teammates are more talented then Kobe's (at this point atleast), including myself.</div> Yeah they are more proven for sure, but the Lakers haven't really had time to prove themselves since they are all young. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know why you would think I tried to come across like that, I am not a Shaq hater just because I'm a Kobe fan so don't worry about that. And I wasn't sure as to why he didn't exactly win it but thanks for confirming my point. Robinson won it and justifiaby so, which was my original point anyway. I'm not trying to take away what Shaq did for the Magic, Lakers, NBA, whatever, Shaq is Shaq, but each of his seasons can be justified as to why he didn't win it. As for the 94' season, Hakeem won it and If I'm correct then that was one of his best seasons as a pro. I don't really think Shaq could have beat out Hakeem in his absolute prime in terms of MVP voting, especially when the Rockets record was excellent as well.</div> Sorry if I came across as harsh, I didn't mean it like that. Just in your first post you said "There was no way that he would win an MVP for the Magic" as if he wasn't in contention or anything and wasn't anything before he played for the Lakers. He led us to 2 55+ win seasons, including 1 60 win season. It is the only bright spot in our franchises history. I'm just saying he was a damn good player before he got to the Lakers.
