NBA Age Limit? Racist?

Maybe I'm naive but I'm still not seeing any racial undertones. Race was only an issue when JO brought it up, and the people who are arguing that race is a factor have nothing but speculative and coincidental information to back them up. I happen to think that a punk is a punk. Whether he's white, black, or purple. It's almost like people are using racial stereotypes to narrow down some of Stern's remarks to blacks exclusively, which really bothers me. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why aren't people up in arms about the Europeans that come into this league at an early age and do not contribute? Why isn't there an age restriction is sports where blacks don't dominate?</div>1) I think they do. I think Darko and Skita, for example, have become jokes of the NBA. You never really hear about the black players that are busts. 2) MLB has a minor league system. How often do you see a player under 20 play in the majors? Under 22 for that matter? And the NHL does have a limit. Sure, the guys can be drafted when they're 18, but they are not allowed to play NHL hockey until they are 20.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">
Who is this strong contigent of people though? If the contigent was so strong, why is the NBA at all time high in popularity and revenue especially surrounding the younger NBA Superstars?</div>

I don't want to generalize about what type of people are disturbed by how much money these young black men are making in the entertainment industry but I guarantee that you will have no trouble finding them. I do, however, feel the reason why revenue in the NBA is at an all time high is b/c consumerism is at an all time high and many fans (in particular young fans) seem more enamored now with purchasing NBA attire than ever before.

It has more to do with the state of consumerism than it does the state of the NBA.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">According to the latest Consumer Price Index, consumerism has decreased in regards to Apparel. The increase in the housing industry and medical care are the reasons why consumerism is up. Neither housing or medical care have anything to do with NBA product consumption.

I'm sure there are people disturbed by more and more young African Americans making money, but I don't think that group of people represent the majority, the numbers certainly show they are a minority group and so their influence is null.</div>

Bottom line is that there is more basketball merchandise being sold in this era than any other era before. NBA players continue to have higher market value than athetes in other sports--mostly due to the fact that NBA athletes are more visible (in terms of frequency and accessibility) than athletes who participate in other sports (sans baseball). These are all contributing factors as to why NBA product consumption is as high as it is.

I never went on record saying that the people who are against blacks earning money are powerful enough to influence the earning potential of these young athletes/performers. They will however continue to voice their opinions, both on the record and off, and there will be a continued rift between the some of the top black professional athletes and the fans that pay their salary. The Barry Bonds steroid scandal is evidence of that. The NBA brawl in Detroit is evidence of that. I didn't see any fans in Detroit attack Austin Croshere, Jeff Foster, John Edwards, or Rick Carlisle.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">
I never went on record saying that the people who are against blacks earning money are powerful enough to influence the earning potential of these young athletes/performers. They will however continue to voice their opinions, both on the record and off, and there will be a continued rift between the some of the top black professional athletes and the fans that pay their salary. The Barry Bonds steroid scandal is evidence of that. The NBA brawl in Detroit is evidence of that. I didn't see any fans in Detroit attack Austin Croshere, Jeff Foster, John Edwards, or Rick Carlisle.</div>Well, I didn't see any of those guys punching people in the face. The reason the brawl was played out the way it was because it was between players and fans. The barrier was broken, and it just so happened to be by 3 black players. Had it have been Jeff Foster that jumped into the stands, the reaction would have been the same.

As for Bonds, I don't understand your point. Bonds is just like JO because he pulled out the race card when it wasn't called for. The major reason he is portrayed the way he is is because he is or was obviously on steriods and continues to lie about it. Another major factor is that he acts like a complete dickhead to the media, so they aren't going to cut him any slack whatsoever.

Honestly, in the steriods scandal, Mark McGwire has been getting killed lately because of the Congressional hearings. Last time I checked he was white. Same with Jason Giambi, who still gets badgered by the media about it. Bonds is not alone when it comes to that.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If its (, we should consider why is the maturity-level of young basketball players such a problem whereas in other sports people rarely talk about it? This is where considerations for race come in. We should, at least, ask the question: "Is the difference that young basketball players are more likely to be black than in other sports, and because of the racial stereotypes that exist in our society there's a tendency to believe they must also be less mature?" </div>

According to Jeff Benedict's "Out of Bounds: Inside the NBA's Culture of Rape, Violence & Crime", forty percent of NBA players have a criminal record, and that book isn't even recent. In what other sports do you have teams with nicknames like the "Jailblazers" or arenas nicknamed "American Arrest Arena"? There is indeed a lot of criminal in the NBA compared to a sport like hockey, and that's why no one talks about the NHL's players being immature. Why don't you understand that? Nobody is calling the NBA immature because the majority of their players is black.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why aren't people up in arms about the Europeans that come into this league at an early age and do not contribute? </div>

Is it just me or has Darko Milicic recieved more criticism than Kwame Brown, Ndudi Ebi, and James Lang combined? The kid is still one of the youngest players in the NBA and doesn't get any playing time, as opposed to a kid like Kwame. Yet most NBA fans would already consider him a bust and are usually pretty vocal in voicing their opinion about him. So I don't know why you don't think people aren't as equally upset at the eighteen and nineteen year old Europeans in the NBA.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I firmly believe that people in this country rooted against the 2004 USA Men's basketball team b/c of the make up of our roster. </div>

I agree, but the roster was not unliked because of their race. The USA Men's basketball team was unliked because there was no Kobe, no McGrady, no Duncan, no Kidd, no Garnett, and no Shaq. I personally wanted to see them lose so that maybe guys like Kobe and McGrady would see how necessary it is for them to compete in these games and for fans all around the world to realize that America isn't the only nation in the world that plays basketball.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I also find it very perplexing when I hear someone say that they like high school and college basketball but hate the NBA. What other sport do fans constantly say that they prefer the college/minor leagues over the top professional league?</div>

College sports are more entertaining because most of the time you have some kind of affiliation with the school. You also know that players are never going to be traded and that they'll be there for four solid years. There's also bragging rights involved and the excitement of the NCAA tournament. Like you said about the age limit, I could write a term paper on why NCAA basketball is more entertaining than NBA basketball. However, race never crosses my mind.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Jermaine O'Neal is entitled to his opinion. You don't have to agree with him, but to attack his character b/c he is voicing an opinion about a subject of extreme relevance to him is not only unjustified but also unnecessary.</div>

Your right, we shouldn't attack his character. Afterall, we have plenty of video tape of him sucker punching a kid half his size for just coming onto the court to rely on if we want to know about his character.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">People who don't believe that race plays a large part in the decisions of upper management are naive.</div>

You're right. In fact, I'd say sending a kid to Stanford for two years fully paid is comparable to sending a kid to prison. What are these people thinking? They're so racist that they want young black kids to receive an education.

You know, I was thinking, and I do in fact think the age limit is racist. It is racist against Caucasians. When was the last time you saw a crop of High School players that were this good and also white? As soon as they hear about Paulus, McRoberts, Devendorf, Krabbenhoft, Pocius, Brockman, Downs, Zeller, Frasor, and Hansbrough possibly going one and done in college, they tried to increase the age limit to keep them there. They don't want whites in their game. I'm onto them. Furthermore, I think that they just want to take away from scholarships that white kids are getting in college by forcing more black players to attend. It's so obvious that I'm surprised I'm the first to realize it.

 

AS said, Jermaine has some valid points, but that whole racism bit is a huge stretch. huge. But, I have always wondered why, and believe that there should be a farm team system in place. Or some sort of rights.

I am not exactly sure hwo the farm team system works or drafting works for the NHL, but it seems to work well. I know that some can be drafted and if theya ren't goodenough theya re bumped to the Farm team(keeping the rights to the drafted team), but I know playesr can also play for minor leagues(OHL) or something like that. As shapecity(I think) said, a secondary team system(or however he worded it), or as I like to call it, farm team system would work well. Drafting for players rights, but letting them play in the college or euro game might work(NCAA rules might have to change?).

however, what I think is needed is better information. sImilar to grassroots exposure/teaching(?). I think to all Those prospects who are thinking of jumping, or all schools for that fact need education on the facts. And who knows the faccts better than the league? Players have to know Their own potential. I think they need harsh critique from impartial people who are willing to criticise hem and give them the feedback needed to let some people assess their risk of going into the league. If Stern can't get an age limit, this is the next best thing).

EITHER way, I think they need a farm team system in place and information for any potnetial prop sports players a sa whole to.

 

You guys are so caught up in this controversy that you don't even understand what I'm trying to say.

I brought up Jeff Foster, Austin Croshere, John Edwards, and Rick Carlisle b/c no one (at least that I saw) did any physical harm to them at all. Fred Jones went into the stands as a peace maker and took a couple of blows. Reggie Miller I believe got peppered sprayed by a policeman. Jamaal Tinsley had bottles and beer thrown on him. They didn't participate in the brawl, but yet fans (and security) had no problems violating them.

This contempt for athletes isn't a black/white issue. There are a lot of blacks who have pent up anger against black athletes. My argument is that it seems to be the top black athletes that are scrutinized and criticized more than any other race--thus causing the distance that some the top black athletes keeps from the fans. Barry Bonds most likely took steroids. But the fact that it took so long for this issue to come to the forefront I believe is partially racial.

The league turned a blind eye to substance abuse in the 80's and 90's. When Barry Bonds starting chasing and breaking records it seems as if the issue of cheating began to surface. Now if he did willingly take steroids (which I believe he did) he should be held accountable. But this issue should have been brought up before he is challenging to break Ruth and Aaron's home run records. It should have been brought up when the bash brothers were dominating the baseball scene in Oakland. It should have been brought up when marginal players like Brady Anderson hit 50 home runs. I hope that no one in this forum is naive enough to believe that the head officials in baseball were unaware that the top players in the league were most likely substance abusers. It definitely didn't start with Barry Bonds.

Many athletes have a difficult time correctly articulating their points. Race is a very large determining factor in many decisions in all aspects of life. I think that sports is one of the few entities where a close to equal opportunity is given to all races based on performance. In most other occupations you are not fully able to gauge a person's potential and talent compared to his/her competition. When you are in competition in sports, there is no umbrella to hide under. If you are getting out played there isn't a social disposition that is the cause of that. Once you step off the court, that is when those obstacles present itself. You have to pick your battles, but to say that someone is an idiot or moron for giving their opinion on something that is relevant to them seems to suggest that athletes should be seen and not heard.

There is an opportunity for some young black athlete to carry on the legacy left by Muhammed Ali, Malcolm X, and Martin Luther King Jr. As much as no one wants to admit, there is a very large resistance for someone to take that role and the national criticism that high profile blacks receive for speaking their minds will continue to make blacks reluctant to voice their opinion and attack certain social issues.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">This contempt for athletes isn't a black/white issue. There are a lot of blacks who have pent up anger against black athletes. My argument is that it seems to be the top black athletes that are scrutinized and criticized more than any other race--thus causing the distance that some the top black athletes keeps from the fans. Barry Bonds most likely took steroids. But the fact that it took so long for this issue to come to the forefront I believe is partially racial.

The league turned a blind eye to substance abuse in the 80's and 90's. When Barry Bonds starting chasing and breaking records it seems as if the issue of cheating began to surface. Now if he did willingly take steroids (which I believe he did) he should be held accountable. But this issue should have been brought up before he is challenging to break Ruth and Aaron's home run records. It should have been brought up when the bash brothers were dominating the baseball scene in Oakland. It should have been brought up when marginal players like Brady Anderson hit 50 home runs. I hope that no one in this forum is naive enough to believe that the head officials in baseball were unaware that the top players in the league were most likely substance abusers. It definitely didn't start with Barry Bonds.</div>Your hindsight is fantastic, Shiek. Now that we know for sure that steriods have been prominent in many players careers, you're trying to say that MLB should've done something about it sooner. As a huge baseball fan, I know that this a problem that has escalated over the years and it was merely a suspiscion back then. It wasn't until the BALCO investigations and Jose Canseco's book that it really took off into the story it has become.

Bonds may get the worst of it but it's because of the way he handles himself as an individual. If I'm reading into what you've said correctly, it seems like you're trying to say that people are trying to stop Barry from breaking the record because he's black. Well, what makes these people decide which black players to sabotage? I mean, it's not like the HR record is held by a white man and they are trying to stop the black man from breaking it.

It's easy to sit back and pick a few situations in which a player hasn't exactly been treated fairly, but my point is that you have to look beyond just the race aspects and see the whole picture. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Many athletes have a difficult time correctly articulating their points. Race is a very large determining factor in many decisions in all aspects of life. I think that sports is one of the few entities where a close to equal opportunity is given to all races based on performance. In most other occupations you are not fully able to gauge a person's potential and talent compared to his/her competition. When you are in competition in sports, there is no umbrella to hide under. If you are getting out played there isn't a social disposition that is the cause of that. Once you step off the court, that is when those obstacles present itself. You have to pick your battles, but to say that someone is an idiot or moron for giving their opinion on something that is relevant to them seems to suggest that athletes should be seen and not heard.</div>It's not that I (having called him an idiot) don't want him to speak his mind, but I want him to do it in better ways than this. If you're going to make a statement, you should at least have some concrete evidence to back it up. To say that this decision for an age limit had anything to do with race is just ridiculous. The suggestion is apparently mutually agreed upon by both sides of the NBA spectrum. One side is the players union, headed up by a black man, and the other being the league, led by a Jewish man. I don't see how these two guys, with their respective backgrounds and heritage, would even consider race in a decision like this.

Sure, JO can try to say that if this happens, blacks will be effected moreso than whites, but I honestly don't think anybody is going to be effected negatively by this. The NBA is not denying anything to these young players. They still have the chance to play ball whether it's in college or overseas. Like shape has stated, only 25 HS players have been drafted in 29 years and only 3 or 4 of them have made an impact before the age 20. How will this rule effect anybody, really?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There is an opportunity for some young black athlete to carry on the legacy left by Muhammed Ali, Malcolm X, and Martin Luther King Jr. As much as no one wants to admit, there is a very large resistance for someone to take that role and the national criticism that high profile blacks receive for speaking their minds will continue to make blacks reluctant to voice their opinion and attack certain social issues.</div>Again, I'm not speaking for everybody that criticized him, but I was just pointing out how dumb I thought his statement was. I don't care if it was my own mother who says it, when somebody says something that I find to be stupid, I'm going to call them out for it. I can only hope that people will do the same to me.

 

Admittedly, JO didn't articulate his points as well as he could have, but it's extremely naive to argue that race hasn't played a part in much of the animus towards black professional athletes. In the past year alone, much of the public perception on issues such as the brawl in Detroit, the Olympic team's trials and tribulations, and the NBA's proposed collective bargaining agreement all have had racial underones. A devil's advocate could even argue that the three aformentioned factors have unconsciously abetted a certain Canadian point guard's MVP candidacy (i'm no devil's advocate though).

David Stern isn't a racist, basically just a CEO savvy enough to try and rectify the way his product is perceived in middle America.

Race has always been (and sadly may always be) the elephant in the room when discussing pretty much anything having to do with American culture. This (american culture) definitely includes American professional sports, which are largely dominated by people of color. You can deny it or refuse to acknowledge it but it's there, standing right beside us. Just a glance at the vast amount of responses in this relatively young thread further proves how much of an issue it still is.

 

If you practice racism or push to pass racist rules into effect, you ARE a racist.

This being said, I don't think the age limit is race driven, but if you think it is, then you must in tern think David Stern is racist.

I think JO spouted off at the mouth, and didn't want to act like he mispoke on such an important issue. I was really disapointed with his answers on NBA Nation, at one point trying to flip the table and question Matt Wiener because he wasn't prepared.

No one is complaining about the NFL age limit when the majority of the NFL is black (JO convienently only brings that up as a passing note). Oh well, I think the NFL age limit is great, and not one bit racist.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This being said, I don't think the age limit is race driven, but if you think it is, then you must in tern think David Stern is racist</div>

I never did say that the motivations for the proposed age limit were completely based on race, all i said was that racial animus is one of the many factors that Stern probably has considered. Making decisions that are partially "race-driven" does not make you a racist, btw. Subconsciously, we've all (yes, "all") done it before.

 

I just don't think David Stern is a guy who would even think along those lines though. I mean the age limit is gonna stop american born white and europeon white kids from coming as well. I think he's only looking at the product.

I just look at it as "you're gonna be a millionare eventually, so why not go to college for a few years and hone your skills"

If kids like Darko and Desegana Diop went to college here, I don't doubt they could be impact players. But because they went without getting that experience, they may never amount to anything. I think that's a shame, becuase there are two guys who could have made the NBA better (and maybe darko still can)

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nomad:</div><div class="quote_post">I never did say that the motivations for the proposed age limit were completely based on race, all i said was that racial animus is one of the many factors that Stern probably has considered.</div>Since this is a current issue, let's look at the last draft. 8 black players under 20 were drafted in the first round and 4 white players under 20 were drafted in the first round. So, 25% of the players taking advantage of the current rule were white. Well, the league as a whole is about 20% white, so the ratio of white-to-black is actually higher than the league's normal ratio. This justs adds to the many reasons why I can't believe that race had anything to do with it.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">According to Jeff Benedict's "Out of Bounds: Inside the NBA's Culture of Rape, Violence & Crime", forty percent of NBA players have a criminal record, and that book isn't even recent. In what other sports do you have teams with nicknames like the "Jailblazers" or arenas nicknamed "American Arrest Arena"? There is indeed a lot of criminal in the NBA compared to a sport like hockey, and that's why no one talks about the NHL's players being immature. Why don't you understand that? Nobody is calling the NBA immature because the majority of their players is black. </div>

I understand that. Does that book also investigate the crime rate in other sports leagues? If not, where's your basis for comparison? If it's simply a matter of what you hear in the media as opposed to concrete numbers, keep in mind that media's news coverage is also affected by racial stereotypes.

Jermaine's perspective, apparently, is that race is a primary difference between the NBA/NFL (where the age limit is discussed as justified) and other sports leagues where people rarely talk about it. Of course, there are other differences as you and others have brought up (social/economic background, availability of a minor league system, etc.). All I'm saying is that race is a factor in the negative image of the NBA for many Americans, and its worth considering whether that has played any role in the decision to implement in this age limit.

I think there are some valid reasons for an age limit, but I don't think its stupid to discuss the degree to which race is a component in this discussion. All else being equal between a young black man and a young white man, I think there's a tendency (sometimes its an overt bias, sometimes much more subtle) amongst many americans to think that it's more important for the black man to go to college before getting paid millions than the white man. If that bias didn't exist, would this age limit still be such a big topic in the media? I think it still would be mentioned as a good idea since (as I said) there are some valid reasons to propose it, but I don't think it would have quite as much support as it does now.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 44Thrilla:</div><div class="quote_post">Since this is a current issue, let's look at the last draft. 8 black players under 20 were drafted in the first round and 4 white players under 20 were drafted in the first round. So, 25% of the players taking advantage of the current rule were white. Well, the league as a whole is about 20% white, so the ratio of white-to-black is actually higher than the league's normal ratio. This justs adds to the many reasons why I can't believe that race had anything to do with it.</div>

But if this was a matter of racism in America, shouldn't we confine the discussion to black Americans versus white Americans who get drafted? I don't think it makes sense to lump in foreign players who may happen to be white into the equation. Americans who are racist typically aren't concerned so much with the welfare of foreigners, as they are with the welfare of white Americans vs. black Americans. There's usually a pretty strong correlation between racism and xenophobia (fear/dislike of foreigners).