<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Jun 1 2008, 11:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'></div> Don't worry, nothing those guys say matters
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Astral @ Jun 1 2008, 05:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Actually, I generally think that Kobe should shoot at least 7 or 8 FTAs. He's that good. There aren't many teams that can force him otherwise. The 11 FTAs against Utah was awesome though. Maybe Utah will realize they need a real stopper, not a weak side blocker.</div> In general? Yes of course, 8 should be easily attainable. I was talking about this particular series though. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Yup. Utah tried to contain him, while SA seriously put up a wall every damn time someone drove the lane.</div> The Jazz also are the most foul prone team in the league, it was a perfect storm against a group with less playoff experience as well. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Bro, when Kobe heated up in Game 1, he shot jumpers. I remember, because I was thinking "there goes the damn series right here". In Game 5, Kobe had a lot of dunks though. Bowen is a dirty defender, but he's also an excellent one. Saying he is an excellent defender because he's dirty is just unfair to him. I personally thought he did a good job on Kobe and didn't attempt anything spectacularly shady. In my opinion a ref will give Kobe the benefit of the doubt rather than Bowen in most cases. In worst case scenario, this is Bowen's defensive "reputation" vs. Kobe's superstar status. They should at least cancel each other out. There's no way Bowen gets better treatment than league MVP.</div> I do not think Bowen was dirty, he got some breaks is more how I would describe it. Even in the few moments he was not guarding Kobe, Bryant still didn't draw many free throws. Over a small sample size of five games, it is entirely possible for a player to get shafted by refs where that normally would not be the case due to Bryant's superstar status. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I remember the shooting foul in Game 5, it was a tic tac kind of foul, but if it was a foul it was a shooting foul. Kobe maybe would have averaged 1-2 FT more per game if some of the 50-50s went his way. Kobe really wasn't very aggressive except for some stretches, and often times when he was aggressive it ended up being a jumper.</div> Which is why I wouldn't necessarily have given him his normal share, but 4 or so sounds more appropriate. Various jump shooters have attained this mark. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Ok, honestly, I'm blanking out on the situations you describe. I remember the ball out of bounds scenario though, they ruled it was foul before the shot. Hey, honestly though, Barry's no-call was a lot worse than the Bryant one you're alluding to As for Udoka, dude, he made 1 out of 2 with 3 mins left in a blowout. :/</div> The Benefit of the doubt is what drives people crazy even in this minor case.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Astral @ Jun 1 2008, 05:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jun 1 2008, 02:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Damn you bastard Shape, you beat me. I have to give credit when it is deserved though, in this thread you're kicking my ass too, City! And for the record Astral, I don't think Kobe should easily be shooting 8-9 FTs a game, but 11 throughout the series was ridiculous to me.</div> Actually, I generally think that Kobe should shoot at least 7 or 8 FTAs. He's that good. There aren't many teams that can force him otherwise. The 11 FTAs against Utah was awesome though. Maybe Utah will realize they need a real stopper, not a weak side blocker. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jun 1 2008, 03:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Astral @ Jun 1 2008, 02:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That's where we agreed to disagree. I saw Kobe shoot a LOT of jumpers because of the excellent job Spurs were doing keeping him out of the lane. It's like any time he tried to drive from any wing, 2 or 3 Spurs converged on him and made a wall somewhere around the FT line. It was very successful strategy. Kobe gets plenty of star treatment. Heh, just ask the Jazz.</div> He drove much more to the basket in that series, Utah did not do as good a job. Well at least the Jazz were mostly allowed to let Boozer hack away at will. I'm all for ticky tack fouls if it is called on both sides. </div> Yup. Utah tried to contain him, while SA seriously put up a wall every damn time someone drove the lane. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I don't see where he was punished. Duncan worked inside, muscling Turiaf and Gasol time after time. Of course he's gonna draw fouls against players who are less physical and smaller than him. Remember, he just came through New Orleans' Tyson Chandler, who's bigger than him and an excellent defender, plus they doubled him around 40-50% of the time. Lakers were very careful about doubling him. That's why he had so many good games. If only Manu woke the hell up, this could have been a better series. Kobe shot a lot of jumpers, and he's defended by an All-NBA defender who has studied his game. Bowen has a reputation of playing Bryant tough. Kobe's jumpers were falling though - sucks to be Bowen, heh.</div> I do not approve of Duncan being able to Boozer Pau out of position. He should indeed be rewarded with calls for how he performed, but that brings me back to my previous point above. I would say that Bowen gets away with calls precisely because of his reputation. There is no doubt he did an admirable job, but it is the flexibility given to him by the officials that I disagree with. Kobe did shoot a lot of jumpers at times, and was refused FTs after starting the game slowly, especially in Games 1 and 5. </div> Bro, when Kobe heated up in Game 1, he shot jumpers. I remember, because I was thinking "there goes the damn series right here". In Game 5, Kobe had a lot of dunks though. Bowen is a dirty defender, but he's also an excellent one. Saying he is an excellent defender because he's dirty is just unfair to him. I personally thought he did a good job on Kobe and didn't attempt anything spectacularly shady. In my opinion a ref will give Kobe the benefit of the doubt rather than Bowen in most cases. In worst case scenario, this is Bowen's defensive "reputation" vs. Kobe's superstar status. They should at least cancel each other out. There's no way Bowen gets better treatment than league MVP. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>How is it hypocrisy? I've been adamant about the fact that I saw Kobe shoot a lot of jumpers. Every time he tried to get into the lane there was a wall put up. He passed on many shots, and the ones he took weren't "foul me" shots. Kobe barely had a chance to get physical with anyone. Duncan went 1v1 and ran at anyone who was defending him. Kobe was raining jumpers. Kobe shot a high %, but that's a testament of how great he is of a shooter rather than him getting off high % shots against the Spurs.</div> Kobe goes into stretches where your description is accurate. To have Udoka shoot more FTs in Game 3 is pretty sad though. For example, he got fouled in the act of shooting in Game 5 and the refs made the Lakers take the ball out of bounds; this was in his hot fourth quarter. He couldn't buy a call when he was red hot in the opening and closing games of this series. The way the Lakers broke from the Triangle was interesting though, it gave Kobe room to attack the basket by setting up a Big Man at the top of the key, and that is an example of when he should have been rewarded. </div>Ok, honestly, I'm blanking out on the situations you describe. I remember the ball out of bounds scenario though, they ruled it was foul before the shot. Hey, honestly though, Barry's no-call was a lot worse than the Bryant one you're alluding to As for Udoka, dude, he made 1 out of 2 with 3 mins left in a blowout. :/ </div> Astral I read your post, but you don't have any evidence to back up your theory. I provided you with actual data to show you Gasol and Odom draw plenty of fouls on the defense when you claimed they don't. I even compared them to players you feel draw a lot of fouls (Kobe & Duncan) to show you just how effective they are at it. You came up with an arbitrary ratio of 1.6 fouls and equated it to Gasol and Odom being able to draw 6 fouls per game against defensive big men. Let's get discuss more about Gasol being fouled when he makes his move on Duncan. I didn't see he gets fouled EVERYTIME, I said he's getting fouled majority of the time on his first move. Do you agree the officials let more physical play take place in the post season? Do you agree Duncan has more playoff experience than Gasol in the post season? If you're answer is yes to both of those questions then it explains why Gasol struggled against Duncan. With Duncan's experience he knows what he can get away with in the playoffs versus what Gasol is used to during the regular season. In the regular season, if Duncan gives Gasol a shot to his back and hip checks him when Gasol tries to spin off him the officials will likely call the foul Duncan. In the playoffs they haven't been calling those fouls and Gasol was going up soft because he expected to be shooting free throws (based on regular season officiating, and lack of playoff experience.) He had to adjust his approach and once he did Gasol was more effective in the post against the Spurs defense. I'll also point out Tim Duncan just put up the lowest playoff shooting percentage of his career (and his second worst effort in terms of blocked shot per game).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shapecity @ Jun 1 2008, 12:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Astral @ Jun 1 2008, 05:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jun 1 2008, 02:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Damn you bastard Shape, you beat me. I have to give credit when it is deserved though, in this thread you're kicking my ass too, City! And for the record Astral, I don't think Kobe should easily be shooting 8-9 FTs a game, but 11 throughout the series was ridiculous to me.</div> Actually, I generally think that Kobe should shoot at least 7 or 8 FTAs. He's that good. There aren't many teams that can force him otherwise. The 11 FTAs against Utah was awesome though. Maybe Utah will realize they need a real stopper, not a weak side blocker. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jun 1 2008, 03:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Astral @ Jun 1 2008, 02:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That's where we agreed to disagree. I saw Kobe shoot a LOT of jumpers because of the excellent job Spurs were doing keeping him out of the lane. It's like any time he tried to drive from any wing, 2 or 3 Spurs converged on him and made a wall somewhere around the FT line. It was very successful strategy. Kobe gets plenty of star treatment. Heh, just ask the Jazz.</div> He drove much more to the basket in that series, Utah did not do as good a job. Well at least the Jazz were mostly allowed to let Boozer hack away at will. I'm all for ticky tack fouls if it is called on both sides. </div> Yup. Utah tried to contain him, while SA seriously put up a wall every damn time someone drove the lane. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I don't see where he was punished. Duncan worked inside, muscling Turiaf and Gasol time after time. Of course he's gonna draw fouls against players who are less physical and smaller than him. Remember, he just came through New Orleans' Tyson Chandler, who's bigger than him and an excellent defender, plus they doubled him around 40-50% of the time. Lakers were very careful about doubling him. That's why he had so many good games. If only Manu woke the hell up, this could have been a better series. Kobe shot a lot of jumpers, and he's defended by an All-NBA defender who has studied his game. Bowen has a reputation of playing Bryant tough. Kobe's jumpers were falling though - sucks to be Bowen, heh.</div> I do not approve of Duncan being able to Boozer Pau out of position. He should indeed be rewarded with calls for how he performed, but that brings me back to my previous point above. I would say that Bowen gets away with calls precisely because of his reputation. There is no doubt he did an admirable job, but it is the flexibility given to him by the officials that I disagree with. Kobe did shoot a lot of jumpers at times, and was refused FTs after starting the game slowly, especially in Games 1 and 5. </div> Bro, when Kobe heated up in Game 1, he shot jumpers. I remember, because I was thinking "there goes the damn series right here". In Game 5, Kobe had a lot of dunks though. Bowen is a dirty defender, but he's also an excellent one. Saying he is an excellent defender because he's dirty is just unfair to him. I personally thought he did a good job on Kobe and didn't attempt anything spectacularly shady. In my opinion a ref will give Kobe the benefit of the doubt rather than Bowen in most cases. In worst case scenario, this is Bowen's defensive "reputation" vs. Kobe's superstar status. They should at least cancel each other out. There's no way Bowen gets better treatment than league MVP. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>How is it hypocrisy? I've been adamant about the fact that I saw Kobe shoot a lot of jumpers. Every time he tried to get into the lane there was a wall put up. He passed on many shots, and the ones he took weren't "foul me" shots. Kobe barely had a chance to get physical with anyone. Duncan went 1v1 and ran at anyone who was defending him. Kobe was raining jumpers. Kobe shot a high %, but that's a testament of how great he is of a shooter rather than him getting off high % shots against the Spurs.</div> Kobe goes into stretches where your description is accurate. To have Udoka shoot more FTs in Game 3 is pretty sad though. For example, he got fouled in the act of shooting in Game 5 and the refs made the Lakers take the ball out of bounds; this was in his hot fourth quarter. He couldn't buy a call when he was red hot in the opening and closing games of this series. The way the Lakers broke from the Triangle was interesting though, it gave Kobe room to attack the basket by setting up a Big Man at the top of the key, and that is an example of when he should have been rewarded. </div>Ok, honestly, I'm blanking out on the situations you describe. I remember the ball out of bounds scenario though, they ruled it was foul before the shot. Hey, honestly though, Barry's no-call was a lot worse than the Bryant one you're alluding to As for Udoka, dude, he made 1 out of 2 with 3 mins left in a blowout. :/ </div> Astral I read your post, but you don't have any evidence to back up your theory. I provided you with actual data to show you Gasol and Odom draw plenty of fouls on the defense when you claimed they don't. I even compared them to players you feel draw a lot of fouls (Kobe & Duncan) to show you just how effective they are at it. You came up with an arbitrary ratio of 1.6 fouls and equated it to Gasol and Odom being able to draw 6 fouls per game against defensive big men. </div> You pointed out foul drawing % from 82games. Your argument was that they use triangle offense to generate mismatches, thus leading to foul trouble for the opposing big men. Saying that they draw fouls (on average, against the rest of the league) at the same rate as Duncan accomplishes nothing. I used the amount of free throws attempted as a way to demonstrate that even in the regular season, these guys shot less than 10 FTAs per game together (Gasol+Odom). Not every personal foul is a 2 shot foul. I rounded what I think is a good rate for personal fouls committed out of free throws shot, for a factor of 1.6 per each personal, which I think is a pretty good assumption. Do you disagree? Dividing the total free throws shot by Odom and Gasol into 1.6, you get that opposing big men averaged a little over 3 fouls each against the LA front line. And I didn't even mention that sometimes it would be a guard who fouls Odom and Gasol, for the sake of the argument. Sure it's arbitrary ratio of 1.6, do you expect me to go back and look at the tape of every foul during the course of the season to come up with statistical proof? If you disagree, why don't you tell me what you think that ratio should be, and we'll just take an average of two numbers. Saying that Gasol and Duncan have the same ability to draw fouls is great, but there are 2 problems. 1) It doesn't prove that they foul out opposing big men. 2) It says nothing about the head to head match up. Also, you're acting as if Duncan got away with a defensive foul every 2 seconds, while Pau was called for every ticky tack foul. This is just wrong. You do realize that Duncan committed MORE fouls than Gasol in this series, right? <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Let's get discuss more about Gasol being fouled when he makes his move on Duncan. I didn't see he gets fouled EVERYTIME, I said he's getting fouled majority of the time on his first move.</div> And I'm telling you again, in their head to head match up Gasol never gave problems to Duncan foul wise. I posted 2 box scores from this season to prove the fact. They didn't call those fouls during the regular season or the playoffs. You're seeing a foul where no one else does. When you're a fan, it's easy to see fouls against your team. But you are the ONLY one who thinks those are fouls. You have absolutely no proof or even an ounce of backup behind that theory. I'm pointing you towards the history of Gasol vs. Duncan matchup, during which Duncan didn't have foul problems. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Do you agree the officials let more physical play take place in the post season? Do you agree Duncan has more playoff experience than Gasol in the post season? If you're answer is yes to both of those questions then it explains why Gasol struggled against Duncan. With Duncan's experience he knows what he can get away with in the playoffs versus what Gasol is used to during the regular season. In the regular season, if Duncan gives Gasol a shot to his back and hip checks him when Gasol tries to spin off him the officials will likely call the foul Duncan.</div> Your theory would be fine and dandy if Duncan played severely worse against Gasol during the regular season. As for your major point, I don't understand. You have a problem with Duncan because he has more experience in the post-season than Gasol? Of course Duncan knows more officiating and post-season play. The man has 3 frigging Finals MVP trophies. It's his right. It's Gasol's problem he was a wuss. People like Chris Paul come into the playoffs for the first time and get physical. Why can't Gasol? <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>In the playoffs they haven't been calling those fouls and Gasol was going up soft because he expected to be shooting free throws (based on regular season officiating, and lack of playoff experience.) He had to adjust his approach and once he did Gasol was more effective in the post against the Spurs defense. I'll also point out Tim Duncan just put up the lowest playoff shooting percentage of his career (and his second worst effort in terms of blocked shot per game).</div> Laugh, of course he did. Parker was shut down, Gino was hurting. He had a lot of crappy ISOs. I've said this before. While a lot of guys are saying Duncan got bailed out by these FTAs, I think they cost SA a chance to make this a better series. Duncan shouldn't have had that many ISOs. Before this, he was killed by New Orleans. In general though, he played a very well rounded game against you guys, at 22/17/5. If only he learned how to shoot the frigging FTs now.....
I think we got off track from the original argument about Kobe's lack of free throw shooting in the series. My original basis was Gasol and Odom weren't getting the foul calls to get the Spurs in early penalty situations, which allows more freedom for Kobe attacking from the perimeter. I was never complaining about Duncan fouling out of games, but I did find it ridiculous the amount of contact he got away with defending Gasol. What type of evidence do you want about Duncan getting away with fouls? If someone can upload the game I'll be happy to watch it and point out which sequences Duncan was fouling and got away with it.
SPLASH! LA vs Boston I want 7 more NBA games. I like both teams, and will be cheering for the team down 5 late in the game. There are a lot of interesting matchups with these two teams. Boston's frontcourt is gonna give LA some problems. Odom has to knock down that 15-18 foot jumper to take KG out of the paint. Doc will try to guard Odom with Posey as much as he can, but Perkins/KG could dominate the paint. Can Odom Guard KG? No. Can Allen Guard Kobe? Hell no. Ray Allen better use screens and find his touch to wear Kobe out on D. Rando is too quick for Fisher, so Farmar will get some burn. He needs to keep knocking down that 3. I think Walton can do a decent job guarding Pierce.
Heh, our arguments just keep repeating themselves, Shape. We're also hijacking the thread. Let's agree that the other person sucks and is wrong, ok? Go Lakers!
4-2 Lakers. Winners Game 1 - Lakers Game 2 - Boston Game 3 - Lakers Game 4 - Lakers Game 5 - Boston Game 6 - Lakers
I'm running a little simulation of the Finals on NBA LIVE on the PS3, controlling the Lakers. I lost Game 1 101-103 to a Paul Pierce game winner over Walton. Sorry guys, but seeing as I'm always right the Lakers are losing Game 1.
I'm not doing it to analyse, just to break up my revision, lol. Now the Lakers are up by 25 at the half, but I usually slump at some point, lol. Still think I'll win comfortably.
If Boston wins, it's gonna be a 7 game series. 1-Boston 2-LA 3-LA 4-Boston 5-LA 6-Boston 7- I'm thinking Boston's defense is too much. Everyone except Lakers/Celtics fans want to see a 7 game series in the finals.
106-91, Lakers win Game 2 . But, seriously, I think that this one will be really tricky to call. I can't see the Celtics stopping Kobe like they (at times) stopped LeBron James. To defeat LeBron, you need to send a big man in his path near the top of the key to stop his drive to the basket, to force him into a pull up jumper. That tactic will not work on Kobe, and if you try to shut down his jumper, he'll blow by you to the hole. On the basis that LeBron and the Cavs managed to get pretty close to beating the Celtics, I gotta pick the Lakers on this one, probably in 6, but if it does go to 7 I think the Celtics will win. Lakers will win Game 1, then Boston, then the Lakers will win their first 2 home games followed by Boston then Lakers again, this time in Boston.
