Thank god Thorn said no to Wally. VC has done nothing bust bust his butt for us ever since the day we freed him from Toronto. I know sometimes board members like to rag on VC when things go wrong but he's always done what we have asked and since day one has carried an enormous load for us. While Kidd pined for his team USA mates and RJ was saying something tongue in cheek to reporters to get noticed, Vince was being a pro and playing some of the best basketball of his career. He is still an excellent player who will transition this young team to the future with his all around game and i'm glad to have him here for the rest of his contract as I feel he will continue to do so. Another great move by Thorn and Kiki, so far this summer is going great.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reganomics813 @ Jun 27 2008, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Thank god Thorn said no to Wally. VC has done nothing bust bust his butt for us ever since the day we freed him from Toronto. I know sometimes board members like to rag on VC when things go wrong but he's always done what we have asked and since day one has carried an enormous load for us. While Kidd pined for his team USA mates and RJ was saying something tongue in cheek to reporters to get noticed, Vince was being a pro and playing some of the best basketball of his career. He is still an excellent player who will transition this young team to the future with his all around game and i'm glad to have him here for the rest of his contract as I feel he will continue to do so. Another great move by Thorn and Kiki, so far this summer is going great.</div> that's why i want him in cleveland so he can have a chance to win one...and the nets get enormous cap space...its a win-win. even if we don't get lebron there are other superstars in that 2010 free agent market.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jirohkanzaki @ Jun 27 2008, 05:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Basileus777 @ Jun 27 2008, 04:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jirohkanzaki @ Jun 27 2008, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>why did the nets decline? the cavs will always be a better team than the nets until 2010...so if lebron is to come to brooklyn, it will only be because of the nets' potential to be better once he does come (which will only be hurt by a highly paid 34-yr old vince carter), because of lbj's relationship with jay-z and new york being a bigger market. lebron will certainly come if the nets say we have enough cap space to sign you and (amare/bosh/wade) and they will surely sign if they know they are to play with lebron james...</div> With Carter the Cavs could become a championship team. If LeBron wins a ring in Cleveland he will not leave. </div> even if lebron wins one with vc (which is not by any chance a sure thing with the celtics and lakers being very good for a couple of years still) lebron will ask himself, "can i win one again with an aging vince carter?" </div> But LeBron has to consider how leaving would affect his reputation and image. If he left after winning a championship he would be labeled a quitter and these kind of labels tend to stick. Look at Vince. If LeBron wants to market himself as a global icon, he can't afford to have a tarnished image. Its one thing to leave because the Cavs have failed to build around you, but you can't argue that if you have a ring.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Basileus777 @ Jun 27 2008, 05:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jirohkanzaki @ Jun 27 2008, 05:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Basileus777 @ Jun 27 2008, 04:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jirohkanzaki @ Jun 27 2008, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>why did the nets decline? the cavs will always be a better team than the nets until 2010...so if lebron is to come to brooklyn, it will only be because of the nets' potential to be better once he does come (which will only be hurt by a highly paid 34-yr old vince carter), because of lbj's relationship with jay-z and new york being a bigger market. lebron will certainly come if the nets say we have enough cap space to sign you and (amare/bosh/wade) and they will surely sign if they know they are to play with lebron james...</div> With Carter the Cavs could become a championship team. If LeBron wins a ring in Cleveland he will not leave. </div> even if lebron wins one with vc (which is not by any chance a sure thing with the celtics and lakers being very good for a couple of years still) lebron will ask himself, "can i win one again with an aging vince carter?" </div> But LeBron has to consider how leaving would affect his reputation and image. If he left after winning a championship he would be labeled a quitter and these kind of labels tend to stick. Look at Vince. If LeBron wants to market himself as a global icon, he can't afford to have a tarnished image. Its one thing to leave because the Cavs have failed to build around you, but you can't argue that if you have a ring. </div> that is also true but like i said there are other superstars in that 2010 FA market...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jirohkanzaki @ Jun 27 2008, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>that's why i want him in cleveland so he can have a chance to win one...and the nets get enormous cap space...its a win-win. even if we don't get lebron there are other superstars in that 2010 free agent market.</div> What you're failing to see is that VC is a guy who can help make the young kids on this team develop and find a groove. One LBJ or another superstar can walk into and keep flowing. Vince is still a guy who commands alot of attention and with that comes opportunities for the other players on the floor because of his unselfishness. Wally does not give you that luxury and is a disruptive player if not treated like he feels he should. There's good reason Minnesota, Boston, and Seattle all got rid of him in their rebuilding processes. The money coming off the books is nowhere as important as the teaching and growth Carter can provide for our young players.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reganomics813 @ Jun 27 2008, 05:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jirohkanzaki @ Jun 27 2008, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>that's why i want him in cleveland so he can have a chance to win one...and the nets get enormous cap space...its a win-win. even if we don't get lebron there are other superstars in that 2010 free agent market.</div> What you're failing to see is that VC is a guy who can help make the young kids on this team develop and find a groove. One LBJ or another superstar can walk into and keep flowing. Vince is still a guy who commands alot of attention and with that comes opportunities for the other players on the floor because of his unselfishness. Wally does not give you that luxury and is a disruptive player if not treated like he feels he should. There's good reason Minnesota and Seattle both got rid of him in their rebuilding processes. The money coming off the books is nowhere as important as the teaching and growth Carter can provide for our young players. </div> that is also true though i feel differently...without a 2nd threat (no rj), a proven low-post presence (i hope lopez proves me wrong real quick) and still no shooters...vc will have difficulty with all the defense focused on him...especially with his advancing age...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jirohkanzaki @ Jun 27 2008, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reganomics813 @ Jun 27 2008, 05:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jirohkanzaki @ Jun 27 2008, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>that's why i want him in cleveland so he can have a chance to win one...and the nets get enormous cap space...its a win-win. even if we don't get lebron there are other superstars in that 2010 free agent market.</div> What you're failing to see is that VC is a guy who can help make the young kids on this team develop and find a groove. One LBJ or another superstar can walk into and keep flowing. Vince is still a guy who commands alot of attention and with that comes opportunities for the other players on the floor because of his unselfishness. Wally does not give you that luxury and is a disruptive player if not treated like he feels he should. There's good reason Minnesota and Seattle both got rid of him in their rebuilding processes. The money coming off the books is nowhere as important as the teaching and growth Carter can provide for our young players. </div> that is also true though i feel differently...without a 2nd threat (no rj), a proven low-post presence (i hope lopez proves me wrong real quick) and still no shooters...vc will have difficulty with all the defense focused on him...especially with his advancing age... </div> Devin seems like a good 2nd thread to me. And we're still not done.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jirohkanzaki @ Jun 27 2008, 05:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>that is also true though i feel differently...without a 2nd threat (no rj), a proven low-post presence (i hope lopez proves me wrong real quick) and still no shooters...vc will have difficulty with all the defense focused on him...especially with his advancing age...</div> It's fine to have a differing opinion and I can see where you're coming from but I respectfully disagree. VC had all the attention on him last season and he handled it just fine, even with the injuries he wracked up all season. RJ's increased scoring totals were a byproduct of that attention (no curly and Kidd's offensive ineptitude were also factors) no doubt. Now instead of VC finding one other guy he now has multiple options. While none may be a 20 PPG scorer on their own, everyone we have acquired so far this summer is a predominantly offensive player with size, athleticism, and hustle. I point to all of the pick and roll lobs VC and Boone hooked up with and Josh is not exactly an offensive machine, imagine what he can do with two guys like Yi and Brook who can go inside and out. Devin Harris is our second option. His unselfishness in pushing the tempo and attacking the basket is key and, while he may not be ready for it, this is a great opportunity to see if he's up to the task. Devin will never be the leader of this team, but he can try out the role as a number 2 option because of having Vince alongside of him. VC's play making allows Devin to play how he does best, as recipient as much as an initiator, and deep down I think he has shades of Tony Parker in him. If the Wally trade were to happen and Devin is the only guy who's running the show he'll never get a chance to try and find that dimension. We have shooters (while no one is going to be confused for Peja Stojakovic) in Marcus, Devin, VC, Andersen, and Simmons all have range and we do have time to add another piece. Our 2 new bigmen have good jumpers and allow our slashers room to slash. I think we're getting all of the right kind of pieces but without having that player who can command a double team on a nightly basis their growth will take longer for these kids, as they are complimentary guys now, to find their potential or possibly kill the chance of them ever reaching it. While you can point to VC's age and say he only has so much left in the tank, that's true with any player at this point in their careers, VC is playing smarter than his competition on a near nightly basis and he now has a chance to help build an ensemble team that could help him sustain it that much longer. VC chose to stay in NJ, and now he's gonna earn that paycheck. The RJ move was the financial move and this was the basketball move, or non-move if you will.
I dont get why we re-signed him at all. No body made him an offer, yet me gave him that ridiculous deal. Now it looks like we might just dump him...... I wanted to re build like 2 years ago. Better late than never, but still.......
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reganomics813 @ Jun 27 2008, 07:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>While you can point to VC's age and say he only has so much left in the tank, that's true with any player at this point in their careers, VC is playing smarter than his competition on a near nightly basis and he now has a chance to help build an ensemble team that could help him sustain it that much longer. VC chose to stay in NJ, and now he's gonna earn that paycheck. The RJ move was the financial move and this was the basketball move, or non-move if you will.</div> I don't see it being any harder for VC now than it was last year. We actually have depth now and guys that can shoot!!! Last year it was just Carter and Jefferson. Then Devin came and added a little scoring punch and then for some reason everyone felt they didn't need to play defense anymore. Now we'll have Lopez who can score in the post, CDR who can slash, Anderson who can shoot, Yi who can shoot, Simmons can score a little. Hopefully Krstic fully recovers now and brings some inside and outside game. Lots of options now. Guys like Mikki and House did really well here because they could hit open jumpers. If they can gel together and play some team defense we can make the playoffs.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Netted @ Jun 27 2008, 11:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reganomics813 @ Jun 27 2008, 07:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>While you can point to VC's age and say he only has so much left in the tank, that's true with any player at this point in their careers, VC is playing smarter than his competition on a near nightly basis and he now has a chance to help build an ensemble team that could help him sustain it that much longer. VC chose to stay in NJ, and now he's gonna earn that paycheck. The RJ move was the financial move and this was the basketball move, or non-move if you will.</div> I don't see it being any harder for VC now than it was last year. We actually have depth now and guys that can shoot!!! Last year it was just Carter and Jefferson. Then Devin came and added a little scoring punch and then for some reason everyone felt they didn't need to play defense anymore. Now we'll have Lopez who can score in the post, CDR who can slash, Anderson who can shoot, Yi who can shoot, Simmons can score a little. Hopefully Krstic fully recovers now and brings some inside and outside game. Lots of options now. Guys like Mikki and House did really well here because they could hit open jumpers. If they can gel together and play some team defense we can make the playoffs. </div> Those guys are rookies or 2nd year players. Rookies, even those with a lot of potential, are rarely players you can consistently rely on. Teams are going to double Vince and dare everyone else to beat them. Those 20 ppg RJ gave us are going to be very hard to replace.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Basileus777 @ Jun 28 2008, 12:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Those guys are rookies or 2nd year players. Rookies, even those with a lot of potential, are rarely players you can consistently rely on. Teams are going to double Vince and dare everyone else to beat them. Those 20 ppg RJ gave us are going to be very hard to replace.</div> Nets went to the Finals with 3 rookies providing some decent support. Not that we're going to the Finals. There will be a decent mix of vets and youthful enthusiasm when all is said and done.
Once the right package comes along where the Nets get future assets (ie. draft picks) and an expiring contract, Vince is as good as gone. He isn't going to demand a king's ransom like J-Kidd but come trade deadline, I guarantee you he is out. Who knows, the Cavs may sweeten the deal later this summer (ie. Wally + 1st rounder + 2nd rounder + pavlovic etc) if their pursuit of B-Diddy doesn't pan out. Carter is exactly what that team needs, a secondary scorer to take pressure off Lebron. They would dominate the East with their inside outside attack. Both LBJ and Carter are post up players.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Netted @ Jun 28 2008, 12:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Basileus777 @ Jun 28 2008, 12:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Those guys are rookies or 2nd year players. Rookies, even those with a lot of potential, are rarely players you can consistently rely on. Teams are going to double Vince and dare everyone else to beat them. Those 20 ppg RJ gave us are going to be very hard to replace.</div> Nets went to the Finals with 3 rookies providing some decent support. Not that we're going to the Finals. There will be a decent mix of vets and youthful enthusiasm when all is said and done. </div> Sixers got to the playoffs and pushed Detroit to 6 games with a rookie starting, another coming off the bench playing an important part. Hawks pushed the Champion Celtics to 7 games starting a rookie at center. Boston had a rookie and a 2nd year player that they relied on off the bench. New Orleans relied on a rookie and a 2nd year player off the bench. Detroit relied on Stucky to get them into the ECF. Houston relied on 2 rookies, one of them starting, to win 21 games and get them into the playoffs. Not even all of these guys were lottery picks, yet teams were able to rely on them. I wouldn't put it past these rookies to be able to contribute something to this team. Even a 2nd year player - you never know how quickly a player is going to progress.
This team will have a much easier time scoring than the team last year. The additions of Lopez, Yi, Anderson, and CDR alone indicate that. Then factor in a full season and training camp for Devin and the removal of completely one-dimensional guys like Collins and Diop and you won't have many 75 point games. Vince will have an easier time scoring or creating for the team this year than perhaps at any other time since he's been here for the simple reason that there are actually shooters (and undoubtedly will be at least one more) who can capitalize and/or discourage complete collapses. The problem will be defending, but that's been a problem for the Nets for all of the last two years and parts of the 2 before. I'm not sure how much worse we could be defensively than we were for most of last year, and that definitely includes the team pre Kidd trade. We've added some different kinds of players to the mix and have certainly gotten longer at most positions. Anderson and Yi are reportedly high BB IQ guys, and I suppose Lopez is supposed to be reasonably intelligent on the court as well. So hopefully this means we have some players that will excel at team defensive concepts. Sean will hopefully show some real growth on both ends, in which case he will see more court time to exploit his fabulous shot blocking. Boone is a very smart player whose defense really improved over the course of the season and who should get a LITTLE more respect from officials as a 3rd year player. And VC played fantastic defense post-trade, and Devin thinks defense is his best asset. CDR has a very good defensive reputation from college. If we can add a really good wing defender and a defensive-minded backup point (to keep Marcus honest, if he's still here), I do think the Nets can be competitive in a lot of games. The youth will energize the bench and keep the morale high, so long as we don't start 3 and 17. A quick start is vitally important just to stabilize fragile confidence and get these guys believing that it's really worth it to play hard every quarter of every game. If they do that, I think the team will be a lot of fun to watch, even if the playoffs are a pipe dream at this point.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Jun 28 2008, 01:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This team will have a much easier time scoring than the team last year. The additions of Lopez, Yi, Anderson, and CDR alone indicate that. Then factor in a full season and training camp for Devin and the removal of completely one-dimensional guys like Collins and Diop and you won't have many 75 point games. Vince will have an easier time scoring or creating for the team this year than perhaps at any other time since he's been here for the simple reason that there are actually shooters (and undoubtedly will be at least one more) who can capitalize and/or discourage complete collapses. The problem will be defending, but that's been a problem for the Nets for all of the last two years and parts of the 2 before. I'm not sure how much worse we could be defensively than we were for most of last year, and that definitely includes the team pre Kidd trade. We've added some different kinds of players to the mix and have certainly gotten longer at most positions. Anderson and Yi are reportedly high BB IQ guys, and I suppose Lopez is supposed to be reasonably intelligent on the court as well. So hopefully this means we have some players that will excel at team defensive concepts. Sean will hopefully show some real growth on both ends, in which case he will see more court time to exploit his fabulous shot blocking. Boone is a very smart player whose defense really improved over the course of the season and who should get a LITTLE more respect from officials as a 3rd year player. And VC played fantastic defense post-trade, and Devin thinks defense is his best asset. CDR has a very good defensive reputation from college. If we can add a really good wing defender and a defensive-minded backup point (to keep Marcus honest, if he's still here), I do think the Nets can be competitive in a lot of games. The youth will energize the bench and keep the morale high, so long as we don't start 3 and 17. A quick start is vitally important just to stabilize fragile confidence and get these guys believing that it's really worth it to play hard every quarter of every game. If they do that, I think the team will be a lot of fun to watch, even if the playoffs are a pipe dream at this point.</div>Every year we say "we will have an easier time scoring". It hasn't exactly happened, at least it hasn't helped the team. I also disagree about your assessment of our shooting ability. We have NO pure shooters. Here's out roster: Devin Harris - not a perimeter threat when defenses collapse in the post Vince Carter - scorer, ball handler Yi Jianlian - our best mid-range shooter. Not consistent enough. Great form, great elevation. Nenad Krstic - one of our best shooters... if he comes back fully healed.. mentally and physically. Josh Boone - putbacks? Sean Williams - Flashes of brilliance Stromile Swift - it's the contract year. wouldn't be surprised if Swift started raining threes. Trenton Hassell - "if the basket is not within my reach don't ask me to shoot" Marcus Williams - "I have a ball? In my hands?! ...must....shoot.." 38%FG Maurice Ager - not a shooter Bobby Simmons - ..... Chris Douglas Roberts - slasher, scorer... but not a shooter Brook Lopez - can hit an occasional mid-range jumper but inconsistent Ryan Anderson - a great shooter, but he has so much depth in front of him, and he's a rookie who is raw defensively. Can't see him getting much PT.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Jun 28 2008, 12:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Netted @ Jun 28 2008, 12:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Basileus777 @ Jun 28 2008, 12:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Those guys are rookies or 2nd year players. Rookies, even those with a lot of potential, are rarely players you can consistently rely on. Teams are going to double Vince and dare everyone else to beat them. Those 20 ppg RJ gave us are going to be very hard to replace.</div> Nets went to the Finals with 3 rookies providing some decent support. Not that we're going to the Finals. There will be a decent mix of vets and youthful enthusiasm when all is said and done. </div> Sixers got to the playoffs and pushed Detroit to 6 games with a rookie starting, another coming off the bench playing an important part. Hawks pushed the Champion Celtics to 7 games starting a rookie at center. Boston had a rookie and a 2nd year player that they relied on off the bench. New Orleans relied on a rookie and a 2nd year player off the bench. Detroit relied on Stucky to get them into the ECF. Houston relied on 2 rookies, one of them starting, to win 21 games and get them into the playoffs. Not even all of these guys were lottery picks, yet teams were able to rely on them. I wouldn't put it past these rookies to be able to contribute something to this team. Even a 2nd year player - you never know how quickly a player is going to progress. </div> We aren't just relying on rookies/young players to provide a spark off the bench. Carter, Harris, and maybe Boone are the only proven players on our roster. There is a lot of holes on our roster right now. We have a bunch of unknowns in our frontcourt. Our backcourt is paper thin and unless we acquire someone else, we are likely to be starting the likes of Bobby Simmons or Trenton Hassell.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Astral @ Jun 28 2008, 01:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Every year we say "we will have an easier time scoring". It hasn't exactly happened, at least it hasn't helped the team.</div> I haven't ever said that, so don't hold that one against me. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I also disagree about your assessment of our shooting ability. We have NO pure shooters</div> Disagree. Anderson is a pure shooter by all accounts. I don't know firsthand, of course, because all I can do is watch hilights and read stats. But those who have seen him play rave about his dead eye shooting, especially from long range, and his quick release. Your concerns about the depth in front of him are misplaced. Offensively he will play the 3 for the Nets, even if he guards the opposing 4 in some lineups. He will serve the same role in our offense that Boki did, only he will (presumably) actually hit a decent percentage of open shots. Yi supposedly does not show great 3-point range yet but is said to be automatic from 20 on pick and pops. Krstic, pre injury and somewhat toward the end of last year, is also a fine pick and pop shooter. That gives us three well-above average shooters in the front court. And that's not to mention Devin, who has far better mechanics on his shot than Kidd and will likely be a better (or less streaky) shooter next year than Kidd. I don't know if you noticed, but Marcus Williams 3 point shot really came along last year. He was still plagued by poor shot selection, but his stroke is (and always was) very nice. If he's here, I expect him to make further strides with shot selection and that will make him a very decent shooter. CDR might not be a great pure shooter, but he's light years ahead of Antoine Wright, and it's Wrights role that he'll be filling, so there's more improvement there. The other guy to mention is Simmons. I haven't watch him much, so I'm not acquainted with all the ways in which his game has supposedly deteriorated due to injuries the last few years. But he is a 39% 3-point shooter for his career, including two seasons not long ago shooting over 42%. I'll take that from my spot-shooting SF any day of the week. Ager's best asset is supposedly his sweet stroke (this according to Dave D last year). Who knows if he will ever find a way to do it effectively in games (which would actually require him to PLAY in games), but that is primarily the skill upon which he was drafted into the league. So there has been a major upgrade to the Nets shooting since the 07-08 season started. And I don't presume that they are finished in that area. I expect them to add at least one more shooter to the roster via FA or trade, probably a combo guard.
