<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">So we get a headcase in Bonzi, we get Swift who's an athletic PF, kinda like Bosh, and Watson a backup PG, a good one but still a backup for Vince and Donyell Marshall. So what's our lineup: PG: Watson/ Alvin SG: Rose/ Roger Mason SF: Bonzi/ Lammond PF: Bosh/ Swift/ Moiso C: Araujo/ Moiso This lineup really isn't that appealing. The Grizzlies become: PG: Jason Williams/ Troy Bell/ Burks SG: Vince Carter/ Mike Miller SF: James Posey/ Shane Battier/ Dahntay Jones PF: Pau Gasol/ Donyell Marshall/ Bo Outlaw C: Lorenzen Wright/ Tsakalidis Still don't see how it does more for us than them, they didn't fill any needs just traded a G-F for another G-F, lost their reliable backup PG, but they became a much more talented team with their starting 5, we got a PG though, that was the only thing, but the players weren't equal value for what we gave up, and we jut got players in the same positions as Vince and Marshall with Swift and Bonzi.</div> did u read the thread or just the trade particulars. this trade is 3 rotation players for 2 which gives the raptors more cap flexibility to pursue hudson which seems more alluring with sam mitchell. and trust me, watson shouldn't be a backup, i think he's the best point u've never heard of, he's on the verge of breaking out. and to reiterate, in my opinion he's the best defender from the point guard spot in the nba which addresses a glaring weakness in the roster. here's the lineup again: starters watson (pg) bonzi (sg) jalen (sf) bosh (pf) araujo © bench hudson (pg) swift (pf) alvin (combo guard) lamond and moise (hopefully enjoy redemption years under mitchell)
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">did u read the thread or just the trade particulars. this trade is 3 rotation players for 2 which gives the raptors more cap flexibility to pursue hudson which seems more alluring with sam mitchell. and trust me, watson shouldn't be a backup, i think he's the best point u've never heard of, he's on the verge of breaking out. and to reiterate, in my opinion he's the best defender from the point guard spot in the nba which addresses a glaring weakness in the roster. here's the lineup again: starters watson (pg) bonzi (sg) jalen (sf) bosh (pf) araujo © bench hudson (pg) swift (pf) alvin (combo guard) lamond and moise (hopefully enjoy redemption years under mitchell)</div> Why would we do that, when we have the possibility of signing a PG in the free agent market for cheap, while keeping Vince and Marshall. Watson would not be a good pickup at all, he brings absolutely no offense and can't shoot (41% last season, only a little better than Palacio). Swift gives us another athlete, but we have Bosh, who not only plays his position but is athletic as well. In that trade were giving up a possible upcoming 6th man of the year in Marshall, who is a great shooter. Once again there is no gain there. Lastly, were giving up a franchise player in Vince Carter. Now before you jump to conclusions, I'm not a huge Vince fan, but I can easily say that he is good for this organization when healthy, and has been this past season. He is better than Bonzi Wells, and has something over Bonzi: A jump shot - something that the Raptors need to keep. The last three years Bonzi has shot 41%, much lower than his career average of 46%, yes you can argue that Vince shot a low percentage last year too, but you can't say that Bonzi has a better scoring ability. This trade is nothing but a salary dump, which leads to more years of rebuilding. This team is not in a rebuilding state so this really doesn't work for us, our core group of players can last for another 3-4 seasons strong.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting thefranchise3:</div><div class="quote_post">Why would we do that, when we have the possibility of signing a PG in the free agent market for cheap, while keeping Vince and Marshall. Watson would not be a good pickup at all, he brings absolutely no offense and can't shoot (41% last season, only a little better than Palacio). Swift gives us another athlete, but we have Bosh, who not only plays his position but is athletic as well. In that trade were giving up a possible upcoming 6th man of the year in Marshall, who is a great shooter. Once again there is no gain there. Lastly, were giving up a franchise player in Vince Carter. Now before you jump to conclusions, I'm not a huge Vince fan, but I can easily say that he is good for this organization when healthy, and has been this past season. He is better than Bonzi Wells, and has something over Bonzi: A jump shot - something that the Raptors need to keep. The last three years Bonzi has shot 41%, much lower than his career average of 46%, yes you can argue that Vince shot a low percentage last year too, but you can't say that Bonzi has a better scoring ability. This trade is nothing but a salary dump, which leads to more years of rebuilding. This team is not in a rebuilding state so this really doesn't work for us, our core group of players can last for another 3-4 seasons strong.</div> in the era of the salary cap, giving yourself cap flexibility is crucial. i think the raptors need to consider rebuilding around bosh, vince has taken the organization to the seventh game of a second round series, his services are no longer needed. plus, all indications are that he requested a trade vis a via his agent, shallow for a hollow superstar. u clearly haven't watched watson play, cause if u have u wouldn't deride his game like that. he's an absolutely ferocious defender, i don't think alvin got make it to half court on him before getting the ball stolen. his court sense is top tier, his shooting is erratic but shooting is something players improve throughout the course of their careers as witnessed by his shooting percentages going up progressively .yeah swift skill set mirrors bosh and whats the problem with that? i don't think araujo is going to give us major contributions, so two lanky towers erasing the mistakes of jalen and alvin will be important. as for bonzi, i agree with everything u say but i think he?s unrealized potential, he's been in a lot bad circumstances without discipline. i don't know why guys herald donyell as a the nba's next sixth man. last year was an aberration, not indicative of his career marked by inconsistency and poor conditioning. and vince is fragile, his state of mind and his physical well being. 3 injury plagued seasons and u still think he's the answer to the raptor problems, he can't be he doesn't play enought to be. additionally, his skills have diminished big time, he rarely dominates games just stretches occasionally. moreover, the more compelling reason is that he's been in the epicenter of the maelstrom of raptor controversy of late as witnessed by feschuk article today. he's bad karma and that stuff accumulates, i hope i wasn't getting to mystical on u.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">did u read the thread or just the trade particulars. this trade is 3 rotation players for 2 which gives the raptors more cap flexibility to pursue hudson which seems more alluring with sam mitchell. and trust me, watson shouldn't be a backup, i think he's the best point u've never heard of, he's on the verge of breaking out. and to reiterate, in my opinion he's the best defender from the point guard spot in the nba which addresses a glaring weakness in the roster.</div> No I didn't read the thread, just posted in it about 15 times, actually I have heard of Watson, he's top 5 in the NBA in assists per 48 minutes, is a very good defender, has a questionable outside shot but can shoot at times just very erracitv, and he's also very athletic, remember him blocking Shawn Bradley <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Toronto trades: PF Donyell Marshall (14.7 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 1.5 apg in 36.5 minutes) SF Vince Carter (22.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 4.8 apg in 38.1 minutes) Toronto receives: PG Earl Watson (5.7 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 5.0 apg in 20.6 minutes) PF Stromile Swift (9.4 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 0.5 apg in 19.8 minutes) SG Bonzi Wells (12.3 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 1.9 apg in 26.0 minutes) Change in team outlook: -9.8 ppg, -3.9 rpg, and +1.1 apg. Memphis trades: PG Earl Watson (5.7 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 5.0 apg in 20.6 minutes) PF Stromile Swift (9.4 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 0.5 apg in 19.8 minutes) SG Bonzi Wells (12.3 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 1.9 apg in 26.0 minutes) Memphis receives: PF Donyell Marshall (14.7 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 1.5 apg in 82 games) SF Vince Carter (22.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 4.8 apg in 73 games) Change in team outlook: +9.8 ppg, +3.9 rpg, and -1.1 apg. TRADE DECLINED Due to Toronto and Memphis being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Toronto and Memphis had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did not happen here (only Toronto met the condition). This trade does not satisfy the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">u clearly haven't watched watson play, cause if u have u wouldn't deride his game like that. he's an absolutely ferocious defender, i don't think alvin got make it to half court on him before getting the ball stolen. his court sense is top tier, his shooting is erratic but shooting is something players improve throughout the course of their careers as witnessed by his shooting percentages going up progressively .yeah swift skill set mirrors bosh and whats the problem with that? i don't think araujo is going to give us major contributions, so two lanky towers erasing the mistakes of jalen and alvin will be important. as for bonzi, i agree with everything u say but i think he?s unrealized potential, he's been in a lot bad circumstances without discipline.</div> I thought Cheeks was supposed to be pretty good, and do you think Sam Mitchell can discipline him better than Hubie Brown can?
All of this talk about Watson being a GREAT point guard (not good but great in deceptions eyes ie. ferocious defender, top tier playmaking ability etc..) is kind of making me sick. There is a reason why he is a back up in the league and the fact that he can't shoot doesn't make things better. I thought a point guard is supposed to have a somewhat reliable shot to open things up for the other players on the team? Not only is he supposed to be an above average shooter, he needs to find his own shot as well, which is something that Earl cannot do on a regular basis. And who are you to say that Toronto will be saving cap space doing this trade? Do you know how much revenue they will lose if they trade Vince?? Even if Toronto had the cap space to sign a big free agent, what kind of chance would they have of signing a Kobe Bryant or Tracy Mcgrady? Even Erick Dampier?? I don't think so. If you have looked at the free agent signings that Toronto has done, it has been for second tier players looking for a chance to prove their game. Even if they get the big free agent (ie. Hakeem the dream) they have to over pay him to sign with them. Really deception, you have three huge non-biased Raptor fans disagreeing with everything you have said to this point. Isn't it time to look at the other side of the coin for once?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">All of this talk about Watson being a GREAT point guard (not good but great in deceptions eyes ie. ferocious defender, top tier playmaking ability etc..) is kind of making me sick. There is a reason why he is a back up in the league and the fact that he can't shoot doesn't make things better. I thought a point guard is supposed to have a somewhat reliable shot to open things up for the other players on the team? Not only is he supposed to be an above average shooter, he needs to find his own shot as well, which is something that Earl cannot do on a regular basis. And who are you to say that Toronto will be saving cap space doing this trade? Do you know how much revenue they will lose if they trade Vince?? Even if Toronto had the cap space to sign a big free agent, what kind of chance would they have of signing a Kobe Bryant or Tracy Mcgrady? Even Erick Dampier?? I don't think so. If you have looked at the free agent signings that Toronto has done, it has been for second tier players looking for a chance to prove their game. Even if they get the big free agent (ie. Hakeem the dream) they have to over pay him to sign with them. Really deception, you have three huge non-biased Raptor fans disagreeing with everything you have said to this point. Isn't it time to look at the other side of the coin for once?</div> loss of revenue? does a losing club with a manufactured superstar (who can't do most of the spectacular things that made him popular) draws better than a winning team? the reason why the raptors enjoy a respectable attendance is because if u want to buy season tickets for leaf games (which is always in insatiable demand) u need to purchase seats for a few raptors games, both mlse teams are symbiotically linked to support the raptors. in addition, many would argue ed belfour and mats sundin are more marketable in toronto than vince. btw, have u ever have listened to talk radio in toronto? vince is constantly disparaged, i think people like feschuck are making careers off deriding vince. i would rethink the notion that vince=ticket sales, maybe for the fringe fan that watches a game every two years but thats the extent of it. u really have to watch watson play to appreciate his game, i followed him from his days at ucla. his shoot is a lot better than u might think, don't let the percentages fool u. plus, i like natural point guards who are more preoccupied with distributing the ball than getting theirs. og15 confirmed sorta my praise for watson, in my opinion he is the best defender from the point guard spot. And bias is a relative term, maybe u guys are members of the vince carter fanclub.
og15 he only played half the season in brown's system and his skills aren't used adequately when he's playing backup. the semantics, the details of the trade can be worked out with a little fine tuning. the numbers are approximately; vince 12 million, donyell, 4.5 million and watson 1.5 million, wells 8 million, swift 5 million (resign him at 6 million)
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">og15 he only played half the season in brown's system and his skills aren't used adequately when he's playing backup. the semantics, the details of the trade can be worked out with a little fine tuning. the numbers are approximately; vince 12 million, donyell, 4.5 million and watson 1.5 million, wells 8 million, swift 5 million (resign him at 6 million)</div> Wells is making 7 Million next year Earl Watson is making 1.4 Mil next year Stomile Swift has a qualifying offer for 5.9 mil next year. Vince is making 12 mil next year Donyell is making 4 next year Thats 14.3 mil to 16 mil, which means we save less than 2 million in cap. Not only does this trade not work out for our franchise in terms of winning, (because it would make us worse), it also doensn't give us a lot of cap to work with. Thats basically a total down grade, if this team were to do that we would be in the lottery for years to come. I don't know why you think that the Raptors need to re-build (this trade basically shows that), all we need is some bench scoring and a PG (via FA).
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">loss of revenue? does a losing club with a manufactured superstar (who can't do most of the spectacular things that made him popular) draws better than a winning team? the reason why the raptors enjoy a respectable attendance is because if u want to buy season tickets for leaf games (which is always in insatiable demand) u need to purchase seats for a few raptors games, both mlse teams are symbiotically linked to support the raptors. in addition, many would argue ed belfour and mats sundin are more marketable in toronto than vince. btw, have u ever have listened to talk radio in toronto? vince is constantly disparaged, i think people like feschuck are making careers off deriding vince. i would rethink the notion that vince=ticket sales, maybe for the fringe fan that watches a game every two years but thats the extent of it.</div>Do you think Toronto only makes the revenues on Vince specifically in Toronto? Vince Carter is a worldwide superstar at this point (Undeserved superstardom but he is a superstar nontheless). Can you market Ed Belfour and Mats Sundin to all of Canada and hope to gain half as much revenue as Carter would get?? I don't think so. Comparing Vince to Mats and Eddy in Toronto is unfair in itself. We all know (whoever lives in the GTA anyways) that the Maple Leafs are basically a religion to most of it's residents. Basketball is merely a guest in the Leafs home and it will stay that way for a very very long time. That is a really unfair comparison to make IMO. Can you agree that Vince Carter is more marketable to Canada and the world moreso than Eddy and Mats? If you say no then I guess you are the Vince Carter Anti-christ. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">u really have to watch watson play to appreciate his game, i followed him from his days at ucla. his shoot is a lot better than u might think, don't let the percentages fool u. plus, i like natural point guards who are more preoccupied with distributing the ball than getting theirs. og15 confirmed sorta my praise for watson, in my opinion he is the best defender from the point guard spot. </div>All I know is that he is a backup point guard who hasn't earned a starting spot over a erratic Jason Williams. Watching him is one thing but for him to actually start a game is another. I'm not a coach and neither are you, so I think there are some reasons as to why he is not a starter. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And bias is a relative term, maybe u guys are members of the vince carter fanclub.</div>Wow you got us on that one. I'll do you one better: Maybe you are actually Dave Feschuk writing under the name deception. To bring up a ridiculous trade like that and actually stand by it as if it holds any merit or value is very....Feschuk like.
I don't know man, I don't think that trade will bring us wins like you think it will, and all that just to save 2 million which really won't get us much since we'll probaly till be over the cap then it's really useless.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">to the question of equal value, lets evaluate this. donyell had a great, breakout year and at 31 most suspect it was an aberration. consolidating those sentiments was is breakdown in the latter stages of the season. moreover, vince has been injury prone for the last 3 seasons, "half man, half season" charles barkley. </div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">now i understand that memphis uses a 10 man rotation which understandably is ideal for two injury prone individuals like donyell and vince. i really don't think jerry west will bypass a star like vince, he's still demands a double team and no player on the grizzlies enjoys that kind of distinction.</div> Okay, it would have been an aberration if Donyell had played the minutes he played in TO when he was with Chicago and had numbers like 35 mpg / 7.8 ppg / 5.4 rpg but he's a 31 year old who didn't play much minutes last season.. in fact his career minutes per game is 28.6 mpg which is noticeably low for a power forward and which means he will have a longer career. And what's this about him being injury prone? He played ALL 82 games last season (16 w/ Bulls and 66 with Raptors) Even Vince isn't injury prone anymore, he only missed 9 games last season.. sure he doesn't show you his "sick, wicked and nasty" dunks as often, but would you rather take a 50 game per season Vince for those dunks or 80 or 82 game Vince with less dunks? He has even declined the invitation to the Olympics to let his knees heal up during the summer. And hopefully with the marriage his ever-loud mom would be quieter and not speak up for things that Vince didn't even say. Oh and concerning Dave Faschuk, like I said this guy only covers negative side of the Raptors decisions / players (especially Carter) and never, I mean NEVER mentions any of the positive moves that the organization made..
Im predicting Vince is gonna play 80 games this season (if hes not injured before it starts), you can quote me on this. The only reason Donyell had a breakdown at the end of the year is because him and Bosh were overplayed by Kevin O'Neil and they were tired, no one here can relate to 82 game NBA seasons unless your a player. That didn't help Bosh's knee any either even though he probably wanted to play he should have had lesser minutes. And for all of you people wanting to get rid of Jalen all I ask is why? It doesn't make any sense.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">Do you think Toronto only makes the revenues on Vince specifically in Toronto? Vince Carter is a worldwide superstar at this point (Undeserved superstardom but he is a superstar nontheless). Can you market Ed Belfour and Mats Sundin to all of Canada and hope to gain half as much revenue as Carter would get?? I don't think so. Comparing Vince to Mats and Eddy in Toronto is unfair in itself. We all know (whoever lives in the GTA anyways) that the Maple Leafs are basically a religion to most of it's residents. Basketball is merely a guest in the Leafs home and it will stay that way for a very very long time. That is a really unfair comparison to make IMO. Can you agree that Vince Carter is more marketable to Canada and the world moreso than Eddy and Mats? If you say no then I guess you are the Vince Carter Anti-christ. All I know is that he is a backup point guard who hasn't earned a starting spot over a erratic Jason Williams. Watching him is one thing but for him to actually start a game is another. I'm not a coach and neither are you, so I think there are some reasons as to why he is not a starter. Wow you got us on that one. I'll do you one better: Maybe you are actually Dave Feschuk writing under the name deception. To bring up a ridiculous trade like that and actually stand by it as if it holds any merit or value is very....Feschuk like.</div> let me dispel the vicious rumour first, i'm not dave feschuk, let me say that emphatically, I AM NOT FESCHUK!!! vince probably helps merchandise sales surpass the leafs worldwide and that makes sense cause basketball is such an international sport. remember, toronto is a cosmopolitan city, so people in greece, china, etc. have a natural affinity for the raptors. as for vince's appeal in canada, i would argue its regional. do u really think vince matters in the prairies, in the west, in french canada and the rural sections that still pervade canada? hockey stars enjoy much more of national broadbased appeal throughout canada, remember the leafs are still canada's favourite hockey team. so i don't have the basketball acumen of hubie brown but i'm a politics science major. jason williams has a big contract, it wouldn't be advantageous not to start the guy. anyways, watson and williams share duties, maybe williams starts but thats the only constant.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting thefranchise3:</div><div class="quote_post">Wells is making 7 Million next year Earl Watson is making 1.4 Mil next year Stomile Swift has a qualifying offer for 5.9 mil next year. Vince is making 12 mil next year Donyell is making 4 next year Thats 14.3 mil to 16 mil, which means we save less than 2 million in cap. Not only does this trade not work out for our franchise in terms of winning, (because it would make us worse), it also doensn't give us a lot of cap to work with. Thats basically a total down grade, if this team were to do that we would be in the lottery for years to come. I don't know why you think that the Raptors need to re-build (this trade basically shows that), all we need is some bench scoring and a PG (via FA).</div> did u watch the nba finals? what did the two best players in the league get the lakers? Newsflash!!! the new trend in the nba is depth. this trade would enable us to have cap flexibility by virtue of filling out 3 rotation positions with vince and donyell's salary. so we could offer market value to hudson, etan thomas and "insert any player of raptor need here". and i know u didn't argue this but many of argued that vince and donyell aren't injury prone. first, to merely suggest that vince isn't injury prone is preposterous, he missed 9 games and played on one leg for at least 2 weeks in the season while pseudo raptor experts considered that a healthy season. and as for donyell, this is the first time he played 82 games in his 10+ career, let me repeat "aberration". think of the trade like this: vince +donyell for bonzu+watson+swift+hudson
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Gotrunks226:</div><div class="quote_post">Hey Come On Guys Stop Going Off Topic Here!</div> so the draft is over and this is the raptor forum.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">think of the trade like this: vince +donyell for bonzu+watson+swift+hudson</div> Hudson? We could've gotten Hudson anyways without the trade........
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">did u watch the nba finals? what did the two best players in the league get the lakers? Newsflash!!! the new trend in the nba is depth. this trade would enable us to have cap flexibility by virtue of filling out 3 rotation positions with vince and donyell's salary. so we could offer market value to hudson, etan thomas and "insert any player of raptor need here". and i know u didn't argue this but many of argued that vince and donyell aren't injury prone. first, to merely suggest that vince isn't injury prone is preposterous, he missed 9 games and played on one leg for at least 2 weeks in the season while pseudo raptor experts considered that a healthy season. and as for donyell, this is the first time he played 82 games in his 10+ career, let me repeat "aberration". think of the trade like this: vince +donyell for bonzu+watson+swift+hudson</div> I'm not even going to argue that trade, because Watson, Swift and Bonzi would be a disaster for this organization. I've made my points, but what I would argue is your cap flexibility. We currently have roughly 6 mil to spend this offseason without going over the cap, if we actually did sign Sam Mitchell, that would leave 1.6 mil out of that original 6, for the next three years (3 yr, 5 mil deal). Now were left with 4.4 mil, and lets say we actually do this trade, +1.7 mil that we saved to make our spendings to 6.1 mil. Lets say we were to sign Hudson in the FA market, plus Mo Pete (for more depth and shooting), and Etan Thomas like you said. This could even go for a combo of players like Brian Skinner, Damon Jones and Mo (all FAs). Hudson and Etan Thomas will most likely go for 5 mil next season (full MLE with raises). This leaves us in a hole, not only with a worse team, but it still doesn't give us the cap flexibility you are mentioning. We might be able to re-sign Mo Pete for about 2.5 mil, but since we can't sign one of those two, our team won't improve.
