Okay, I just thought I'd start a new thread to kind of collect all discussion on the Warriors' PG situation. First, there's the debate about Monta playing the PG. Personally, I don't think that's his best fit. I think a PG should be a passing playmaker. Yes it's nice to have a PG who can score, but IMO I don't like a "score-first" PG. I think the best PGs (Nash, Paul, Williams, Kidd) can all score at will but still are pass-first. They are trying to make their teammates better. I think Monta could "learn" to do that better (hopefully EVERY player in the NBA is working on making their teammates better!) but it's still not his natural calling, I don't think. He's an alley-oop machine. When he played in the rookie/soph challenge, he caught about 8 or 9 alley-oops from Chris Paul in the first half alone! He's a super quick, slashing, scoring threat. He also has a great mid-range jumper which is perfect for the SG position (come off a screen, catch an dshoot). He's money with that. If he were playing with Steve Nash or Jason Kidd, that would be scary. So, I think GS needs to trade for a PG. Which ones do you like? I still don't know all the rules about sign-and-trade, etc, (like when we could officially use Mags in a trade), so I'll just throw mine out there, realistic or not. I think the first one with legs that I like is Al for Heinrich. That makes perfect sense. I know people say his contract is large, but that's an important position and I think he'd fit well with Nellie. I just read that Jamaal Tinsley is being pushed out of Indy. I never thought I'd want this guy, with the club-n-thug lifestyle and all, but dude can ball [video=youtube;hzp9hMM030g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzp9hMM030g[/video] . He's a tough, pass-first PG, and he's played with SJax before. It's a risk with his attitude (and you have to wonder why Indy traded for TJ Ford when Tinsley seems to be equal if not better). It must be a character thing, which is the only reason I hesitate. Also, I'm curious about Shaun Livingston. I know he struggled in LA, and the crazy injury, but he was still a Phenom with court vision. Is there a chance he could still play? It just seems like low risk, high reward to me. I was hoping GS would try to make a deal for Andre Miller, but it's probably not realistic now. If Baron had shown the respect to opt out BEFORE the draft, Mully could have tried to use the trade exception, or at least target a PG, like Miller, on draft day. But Miller is a stud PG, IMO, and I'd love for GS to get him. Please don't mention Stephon Marbury : [video=youtube;zWxgbyYrT5A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWxgbyYrT5A[/video] Here's a list: Tinsley Heinrich Livingston Ramon Sessions Raymond Felton Andre Miller Earl Watson Mo Williams Telfair Steve Blake Brevin Knight Marko Jaric Delonte West Carlos Arroyo I like Heinrich, and for some strange reason, right now I'd consider Tinsley. Dude can run the point no question. Is Felton available for the right price? I like him, too. Steve Blake, as well, though Portland probably wouldn't do it. What do you think GS should do at PG?
Stephon Marbury...haha, sorry. Hinrich would be the best option but seems unlikely we can land him using Harrington as bait. Would be ideal for us since their salaries are similar. Felton would be second best, but he's on the up and I think the Bobcats want to retain him. He's in his final year of his contract and it's not a big contract, so I don't see them trading him. I'm not a fan of Livingston because I simply haven't been wowed by him. He's oft injured and has a high dribble and is not terribly quick. I could be wrong. The list of PG's you noted other than Hinrich and Felton are not starting PG material, IMO. I'd rather have the best players on the court rather than put in a second-tier PG just for the sake of it. PG: Monta SG: Jackson SF: Maggette PF: Harrington/Wright C: Biendrins Unless we trade Maggette, which I don't think we will, that lineup is the best talent the team has and that should be the starting lineup. If we do trade Maggette, then we can move Jackson back to SF and Monta back to SG and plug in a PG, starting material or not. I'm not sure about Tinsley's health, but if he is 100% then I'd say he's a better option than Felton. Can he play defense?
Also, I'm not too worried about getting a player that has known attitude problems. I think Nellie has proven he can turn those types of players around granted they're not completely insane. Nellie is like the NBA's Dr. Phil.
You we both know a lot of point guards on that list aren't pure point guards either. I'd give Ellis some measure of confidence and the ability to get better by a lot this year. Of those pure point guards, many of them can't even shoot as well as Monta and Monta is a fast learner and generally good decision maker when creating with the ball. Shooting from a point guard is important unless you're like a Jason Kidd or Baron Davis. There's very few players that have "eyes in the back of their head" and the defensive instincts/physical skills to clamp down on a scoring guard. I suppose Felton would be a good prospect. He's like a miniature Baron Davis in that he has pure point guard skill, he acts more like a scorer so he can be a "combo guard" by definition. The guy has jets, but his shooting is so poor it ruins his game. So, I'd rather have Ellis more than another guard that can't shoot and just doesn't pass when he should. Andre Miller is a very good prospect and he's probably the top of that list in terms of playmaking, but his scoring variety is very limited. He's a good shot from like 18-20 feet out. He doesn't have much shot range and he tends to drive looking for contact a lot rather than space the floor with a jumper. He's probably the best of that list for pass first instincts, but don't count on any outside shooting from him. He's also a bit on the slower side in terms of 6'2 guards, but he's quick, strong enough to break down most defenses. I'm sure he's one of the reasons why Brand went to Philly as Miller and Iguodala are a good passing backcourt (It's their shooting however that won't space the floor properly and it's probably a requirement that your point guard can accurately hit the 20 foot shot at any given time as the 10 big players all in one area can restrict ball movement). Blake and Knight are pass first point guards that are second strings, although you could argue a strong case for Blake. He's a good playmaker, an NCAA champion, and an all-around shooter, but he's not a gifted all-around scorer. He's also going to be underweight defensively and although he's quick, he's not that quick. He works hard defensively, but he doesn't have much strength so guys like Baron or Miller will eat him for lunch. If Blake was a warrior I'd be happy because I've been an admirer of his game before he even got a break into the Blazers' rotation (shooting + effort on defense + decent quickness, sounds like Hinrich-lite in a way). Getting Knight would be like getting another, but better playmaking version of Speedy Claxton, so I wouldn't mind him. Of course like Miller and Claxton, don't expect much shot range, it's probably even less for a guy like Knight (16-18 feet is the furthest he can consistently make a jumpshot and his size just make him a backup point). Great on-ball defender and he makes others better. Knight is not as jump-out-the-gym athletic as Speedy, but he's just as quick IMO. Knight is probably one of these guys like Avery Johnson or Darrell Armstrong or Mighty Mouse Stoudemire or Troy Hudson who just never loses much quickness as they get older because they're just so quick to begin with. But injuries... major concern. You can't play well or can't play at all while injured. Tinsley, is a type of pure point guard, but consider him like a Baron Davis type of guy only not as athletic and not as quick. Tinsley was a street ball legend who went to college, didn't really become a starter until a bit later after his rookie years. He's like Baron Davis in a way in that he can be a streetball combo guard rather than your classic point like Deron Williams, Chris Paul, or Steve Nash (and even Nash isn't very orthodox in the way he moves). Tinsley is a good playmaker, outstanding ballhandler that comes up with steals. He's team oriented although he can give 20+ points in some games if he's counted on to score. Poor %'s all around, though... It's probably why Indiana never felt they could go the extra mile with him. Not only is he injury prone, he can get beat on defense (especially if he reaches), and he can't shoot at the line or consistently from anywhere. I don't know about Ramon Sessions, so I'll skip him for now. Earl Watson is a good backup guard. Think of him like Speedy Claxton, less playmaking, very good ballhandler, same energy. He's very capable of getting assist numbers. He's a combo guard of the defensive variety who can drive to the hoop and cause deflections or steal the ball. If he has to shoot this guy doesn't have much range, but he's consistent to about Speedy Claxton range. Like Claxton he can jump out the gym for his size. I'd be happy to have this guy, actually. Speedy Claxton types are definitely good to have because they are quick enough to stop the ball and that's what you need to have to counter our own fastbreaks run against us. Telfair... The guy can handle the ball. Most pure point guard prospects should have to go to college so they can interface with the nation's top coaches and run the best high school players in the nation. He probably got bad advice. Mo Williams. A combo guard that has some playmaking skills. Think like Jason Terry. Guy can shoot off the dribble, make plays, dunk, has clutch moments. Terry is probably the better defender, though. I'd love to have Mo Williams, though. He's very good. Marko Jaric. A shooting guard that either likes to play point or can play a point (alternatives were either Eddie House, Rick Brunson, Keyon Dooling or Doug Overton at point so I guess he wins by default since he has skilled at playmaking, ballhandling, defense and shooting). I distinctly remember the Clippers having him at point guard because they had no good point guard at the time. He's a good transition player. Not sure if he's the quickest or strongest at shooting guard/small forward, but definitely has ability to post up point guards or shoot right over them. Not very consistent. Could lack a true position, but a very versatile guy who isn't really bad offensively or defensively. Nice role player IMO. Delonte West. Can score, shoot, defend, make nice passes. Would have been a very good true shooting guard if he was taller. Carlos Arroyo. Has a bit of streetball in him. Nice crossover. Can make the nifty no-look pass through traffic. Fantastic ballhandler. Very little shot range. Can score. I like this player, but don't like the fact he overdribbles quite often. Kirk Hinrich - I feel this guy would be a future all-star at some point. I would like to get him on the cheap.
I don't know, I think putting Monta at PG has a trickle down effect and makes the team worse. Compare the differences with Monta there vs anyone else PG- Monta > some scrub SG- Jax < Monta SF- Magette < Jax 6 man- Marco < Magette Monta may as well be a rookie playing PG. I don't think he can make people around him better, not yet anyway. He's never had to set up others and by putting him there we're also taking our best scorer out of a scoring role. I think we would be better with pretty much any PG in there instead. Hell, I'd even call back Aaron Miles if it came down to it. Anyone who can protect the ball and get it into the hands of one the the scorers would do fine.
I agree about CJ Watson or Aaron Miles. We need playmakers (who can also shoot + defend) who can set up our scorers. We'll leave the superstar moves for Ellis, Sjax, Mags and possibly BWright.
Well, I also forgot to mention that I really like CJ Watson as a back-up and hope he returns. So at least there's one player who would be familiar with Nellie (and who Nellie has shown confidence in). Don't forget, Watson was a star in 16 games in the D-League. His numbers were amazing: He averaged 26.2 points, 6.0 assists, 5.5 rebounds, 1.8 steals, and shot a sizzling 51% from the field, 40% from three, and 89% from the line. So I really hope we keep him. I just think the main thing is we need someone who can handle ball, limit turnovers, run the offense effectively, an dmake good pases to set up the other players. We have three legit offensive play-makers now in Mags, Jax, and Monta. So we don't necessarily need a PG who can dominate the ball and make plays. We could use a guy like Knight just to take care of the rock (especially against the press and in pressure situations) and just feed it to JAX who can then create a play. I'm just weary with Monta being the "safe-handler" of the rock. I just don't trust his PG handles that much. He has amazing handles going to the rim, but that's different than bringing it up court and initiating the offense, IMO.
It seems like there's no debate, Nellie has said Monta is the starting PG 100% and "will do fine". I prefer a pure PG as well but at the same time I do agree with Nellie that its for the best if Monta learns PG so he can play either throughout his career. If getting him to play PG is the goal, its much better to get started as early on in his career as possible. He'll never be a Nash or Paul but I don't see why he can't be like a Tony Parker. Parker is a "shoot first" PG, he and Monta are similar in that they're both super quick, unstoppable getting to the rim, very high FG% guys and have iffy 3 pt range. Parker has averaged 5.5-6.0 assists in each of the last 5 years and no one complains about him. Hes a good decision maker, good pick and roll player, and lighting quick all of which I can see Monta bieng. As I've said before, Monta averaged 4.6 apg after the all-star break last season and thats as a SG. Lets not kid ourselves either, while Baron did have good vision and didn't turn it over much I would say he was in fact a shoot first PG last season. He averaged 7.6 apg on the year which is low for him and an abnormally high 21.8 ppg. There were many more times last season that I was unhappy with him refusing to pass and facilitate than there were times I was happy with his distribution. I think Monta could come in and fill up much of the production that we're losing from Baron. Don't get me wrong, hes not going to be as good of a PG as Baron was as far as assists, TOs, etc. but at the same time hes also not gonna dribble it up and chuck a 3 half the time either. He'll give you a significantly high FG% and hes already proven to be pretty good on the pick and roll. He was making some great passes off of penetration last season which is what you look for from your non-"pure" PGs. Is 21 ppg, 6 apg, 5 rpg, 2 spg out of the question if Monta is the main ball handler? Thats filling up nearly all of Baron's production, probably at higher FG% but more TOs and less "intangibles" (leadership?, clutchness, etc.). In addition to Monta at PG we've also got Jack who'll be initiating a lot I'm sure. Plus we're supposed to be signing a capable backup PG- Delonte West is the guy I want in free agency. Hes good surprisingly good assist numbers, he can handle it, shoots well, very energetic, and plays good defense (plus hes big enough to guard SGs). He allows you to play Monta at SG with a PG who is capable of facilitating and defending SGs plus he'll give you 3 pt shooting. Belinelli may have some potential to man the PG duties for small stretches. Also, like Mullin said the team doesn't look as good on paper but is it safe to say they could have better ball movement? Efficiency? Half court offense? FT shooting? Defense? Energy? I think its certainly possible.
Monta is going to be the starting PG as it stands. The Warriors just need to take a little different approach. Rather than rely on the pure ability of court awareness that BD had, the Warriors must now focus as a team on ball movement and just overall playing better, fundamental basketball. In a way, we can see this as the SF Giants. They lost Barry Bonds so they went with a youth movement of sorts that poses little offensive threat (as we are witnessing). This young squad is forced to rely on the "little things" that get you runs, like sacrifices, stealing bases, etc. The Warriors, who I believe will still have a free-flowing offense under Nellie's reign, will be forced to take better care of the basketball as a team and to work together to execute an offense. I realize this is all very ambitious, but do we have a choice?
Yeah, it's pretty clear that Mullin wants Ellis to be the PG, Nellie wants him to as well, so that's the plan. In the long run, it's better to see if Monta can handle these duties or not, or at least improve. He improved last year, and he can continue doing so as a young guy. Experience is always the best teacher, although some things you just can't learn. Moving the ball around like Kensaku said will be the key, make early passes and rotate it around in the half court set, take the good shot if its there, basically that's Nellie's system. It's just cutting down on the turnovers that Monta really needs to key in on first, and then working it out from there.
I think the guy that was overlooked is JAvaris CRittenton. An athletic point guard stuck in Memphis behind lowry and conley. He is a big guy who would fit prefectly alongside Ellis. I like the idea of Dooling as well. Please ....no Tinsley....bad attitude.... and with MAggette speding at least 17 games a year on the DL.... Tinsley is the last always injured guy we need under contract. I agree ...take a shot at Livingston as well. Would a Harrington for JAric/Crittenton be such a bad deal. I know Jaric's deal is not ideal. Also read a rumour that Gerald Wallace has fallen out of favor in Charlotte. Maybe we could swing a deal for Wallace/Felton.... harrington for wallace works straight up, financially, and then absorb felton with our available cap space.
Tinsley would be interesting to see on this team. It would be a reunion of the Pacers core minus O'Neal with Tinsley, Jackson, and Harrington. I am not so sure if that would be a good thing. But really I think Tinsley would be a decent fit here. I think if he could change like Jackson has, then it may not be a bad fit at all. The problem is that he has perhaps a longer contract than I would like to see for the Warriors to add him on, and he does have injury problems, which adds onto his contract length concerns. Also I don't see much of any trade opportunities to bring Tinsley in. That news about Wallace is very intriguing however. Wallace might be a nice fit here. I am not sure if Jackson/Harrington would be enough?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clif25 @ Jul 11 2008, 09:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That news about Wallace is very intriguing however. Wallace might be a nice fit here. I am not sure if Jackson/Harrington would be enough?</div> I am against the idea of trading Jackson. As it stands, I think he is the leader of the Warriors now that Baron is gone. This might be Monta's team in the future, but right now, Jackson has an edge on leadership. Trading him would be a bad idea. Gerald Wallace doesn't intrigue me. His style of play is wreckless and he's been injured because of that. He's reminds me of a younger Ricky Davis and I wouldn't want them on the Warriors. I think those guys rack up stats but don't influence a game too much.
I posted this in another thread, but I figured it has its place here and I wanted to get your thoughts on it: ...the Warriors will now need to put together a collaborative effort in sharing PG duties now that Baron is gone. We're not going to have that guy who is 100% reliable in taking care of the ball. What's great about Baron is that even if a play goes awry, he had the ability to create something out of nothing. This is why he's had so many game-winning shots with the Warriors. When I say PG duties, I don't just mean bring the ball up and make an assist. I think a lot of people get caught up in the assist totals too much. Assists don't always equate to best PG. Making the right play at the right moment is. This is what the Warriors will need to do better than they have in the past. Monta may be slotted in the PG position at the start of the game, but it doesn't mean he's going to take on 100% of what Baron Davis did. Maybe he will learn to, but that's far-fetched. At this point, I can only hope that Monta will become a very smart basketball player: slow down when the defense is going full speed, go full out when the defense is flat-footed, make a bounce pass instead of a lob, pass up a pass if the lanes are clogged and generate a new half-court set, etc. I think we'll get a lot of contributions from Sjax, Marco, Maggette, and Randolph when it comes to bringing the ball up the court.
Yeah the PG situation isn't looking to good right now. I agree its going to have to be PG by committee but I just don't know if Monta/Jackson are really going to be able to successfully get the ball moving well all the time as the starting backcourt and in all likelihood the top two ball handlers. We're expected to sign a veteran backup PG- Delonte West and Keyon Dooling have been mentioned. That should help a little. If Marco proves to have good vision as a SG that will help. Maybe Randolph does even earn some time as a point forward? Does Maggette show more ball movement in Nellie's system? Like Mully said, this team definitely has the potential to move the ball better if they have the right mind set in addition to defending, playing better in the half court, not settling for jumpers as much, playing with more energy, rebounding better, and having more depth.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kensaku @ Jul 14 2008, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think we'll get a lot of contributions from Sjax, Marco, Maggette, and Randolph when it comes to bringing the ball up the court.</div> Not to put you down, but 2 of these guys haven't played any kind of significant NBA minutes, and the only one of this list that had some minutes bringing the ball up (very little) is SJax. Can you imagine what this will look like when the other team is trapping? I can already see that statisticians hands cramping from tallying the turnovers.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CohanHater @ Jul 14 2008, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kensaku @ Jul 14 2008, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think we'll get a lot of contributions from Sjax, Marco, Maggette, and Randolph when it comes to bringing the ball up the court.</div> Not to put you down, but 2 of these guys haven't played any kind of significant NBA minutes, and the only one of this list that had some minutes bringing the ball up (very little) is SJax. Can you imagine what this will look like when the other team is trapping? I can already see that statisticians hands cramping from tallying the turnovers. </div> Well, what other choice do we have? Nellie says we're going to be playing the young guys, so I think it's plausible to give these young guys some responsibility.
Don't forget, we have CJ Watson and also whatever 3rd PG we're going to get. I think you're taking my comment a little out of line. The point is we're going to need a variety of ways to make up for Baron's absence. Looking at who has ball handling and play making abilities, it only makes sense that Nellie will use those I mentioned, along with Monta and 3rd PG to be.
Ah, ya, I'm actually with you on that... I think that it's going to be a very long season if we don't get a veteran presence at least to help Monta get through the season. An Andre Miller type of player. I'm with most people, that I don't think we necessarily need a starting 1. Just one to help carry Monta the next couple of seasons when he's really stuck.
I really think Livingston would be a good fit for Golden State. Start Ellis at PG to see if he can handle it, then bring Livingston in for Jackson and have him play PG on offense and SG on defense.
