After spending way too much time on this, I present the best semi-realistic offseason plan I could come up with for the Sonics, through trading. Goals: - Trade Ray Allen for Shareef Abdur-Rahim - Trade Luke Ridnour or Ronald Murray for a bigger, stronger guard - Trade Rashard Lewis, Vladimir Radmanovic, or both - Obtain a legit post presence, or at the least a developing one - Get rid of either Calvin Booth or Jerome James - Trade for or draft a solid backup SG/SF Current Roster: Ray Allen Rashard Lewis Vitaly Potapenko Calvin Booth Jerome James Antonio Daniels Vladimir Radmanovic Nick Collison Luke Ridnour Reggie Evans Ronald Murray Richie Frahm 1) Seattle trades: PF Nick Collison, SG Ray Allen Seattle receives: PF Shareef Abdur-Rahim, 2004 Blazers 1st Round (#1), 2004 Blazers 1st Round (#2) Portland trades: PF Shareef Abdur-Rahim, 2004 Blazers 1st Round (#1), 2004 Blazers 1st Round (#2) Portland receives: PF Nick Collison, SG Ray Allen TRADE ACCEPTED 2) Seattle trades: PF Vladimir Radmanovic, C Jerome James Seattle receives: PF Jerome Moiso, PF Donyell Marshall Toronto trades: PF Jerome Moiso, PF Donyell Marshall Toronto receives: PF Vladimir Radmanovic, C Jerome James TRADE ACCEPTED 3) Seattle trades: SF Rashard Lewis, PG Ronald Murray, 2004 Sonics 1st Round Seattle receives: SF Corey Maggette, 2004 Clippers 1st Round Clippers trade: SF Corey Maggette, 2004 Clippers 1st Round Clippers receive: SF Rashard Lewis, PG Ronald Murray, 2004 Sonics 1st Round TRADE ACCEPTED 4) Seattle trades: C Calvin Booth, PF Reggie Evans, 2004 Sonics 2nd Round (#1), 2004 Sonics 2nd Round (#2) Seattle receives: C DeSagana Diop, C Tony Battie Cleveland trades: C DeSagana Diop, C Tony Battie Cleveland receives: C Calvin Booth, PF Reggie Evans, 2004 Sonics 2nd Round (#1), 2004 Sonics 2nd Round (#2) TRADE ACCEPTED Projected Roster: Shareef Abdur-Rahim Donyell Marshall Jerome Moiso Marquis Daniels Corey Maggette DeSagna Diop Tony Battie Vitaly Potapenko Antonio Daniels Richie Frahm 2004 Blazers 1st Round (#1) 2004 Blazers 1st Round (#2) 2004 Clippers 1st Round Projected Lineup: (Starter, Backup) C: Vitaly Potapenko, DeSagana Diop PF: Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Tony Battie SF: Donyell Marshell SG: Corey Maggette, Richie Frahm PG: Antonio Daniels, Luke Ridnour Possible Draft Picks: SF: Luol Deng, Josh Childress, Luke Jackson, Josh Smith SG: Ben Gordon, Andre Iguodala, Sergei Monya PF: Andris Biedrins, Martynas Andriuskevicius, Al Jefferson C: Pavel Podkolzine, Robert Swift Obviously, we lose some depth, but with three first round draft picks it can be made up, especially if Barry is resigned. The biggest problem is the Maggette trade, with Murray only having a year left on his contract.
Wow, that's a lot of offseason moves, but can't say I disagree with many of them. My line of thinking is you compete in this game win championships. There is no use and being content with being competitive, fighting for the 7th and 8th seeds each season. It is obvious this team is going nowhere, both with the current management and the current roster. Big changes are necessary, whether or not we have the balls to go through with it is a different story. I like the way you are thinking, but I would rather go with ray straight up for Shareef than include Collison in the deal, at least before we've seen him at the top level.
Nah, dude. I say you see who is worse between Collison and your new drafted center and then go from there. I like blockbuster trades better because by the line we will be more aware with our needs. PF or C? Trade bait:Allen, Daniels, draft picks, booth, james, barry, evans. I'm sure that would fetch us something. 10 desperate trades will likely get us nowhere. It's too unrealistic anyways.
The Toronto one I would like it, well actually I like Moiso so not really, and I know Jerome James is a fat slob who doesn't work, so does everyone basically but his contract comes off the books. If you wanted a Raptors trade, something like Flip Murray and Jerome James for Donyell and something would work better. Anyways, those trades won't go down, too unrealistic, and you have to look at the other teams needs, not only your personal team needs. Also in the scenarion you seem to acquire too many PF's and C's: Shareef, Moiso, Marshall, Battie, Diop I don't think the Cavs would give up Battie and Diop in the same trade for and undersized PF when they already have Boozer, and an injury prone C when they have ZZZ. It's not all about trades being acceped on real-gm, look at team needs. The Cavs want a shooter at the 3 spot, a more realistic deal would be Rashard Lewis to the Cavs for something. I don't see the Clippers given up anyone right now because the two most tradeable players are the cornerstone, Brand and Maggette, and we wouldn't do a Rashard and Flip beacause we already have 3 SG-PG's on our team, and our first rounder can already land us a high lottery PG. (Harris or Gordon) How can the Sonics compete with Dallas for Marquis Daniels? Do you know who owns Dallas, he's a lock in staying in Dallas.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">The Toronto one I would like it, well actually I like Moiso so not really, and I know Jerome James is a fat slob who doesn't work, so does everyone basically but his contract comes off the books. If you wanted a Raptors trade, something like Flip Murray and Jerome James for Donyell and something would work better.</div> I agree with this, I don't think Toronto would trade for Jerome, especially not with Marshall and Moiso. Flip's too valuable to trade in this situation, especially if Ray doesn't stick around. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Anyways, those trades won't go down, too unrealistic, and you have to look at the other teams needs, not only your personal team needs. Also in the scenarion you seem to acquire too many PF's and C's: Shareef, Moiso, Marshall, Battie, Diop</div> I don't think these trades are unrealistic, it's just a case of being slightly biased when proposing trades using your own team. Everyone's like that, even if you don't mean to be. I disagree with the analogy that you aquire too many frontcourt players, because you're giving up as many frontcourt players in these trades as well. James, Booth, Collison and Evans are all gone in these scenarios. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think the Cavs would give up Battie and Diop in the same trade for and undersized PF when they already have Boozer, and an injury prone C when they have ZZZ. It's not all about trades being acceped on real-gm, look at team needs. The Cavs want a shooter at the 3 spot, a more realistic deal would be Rashard Lewis to the Cavs for something.</div> You're right here, the Cavs are crying out for a shooter. I doubt they'd do this trade as it stands as they don't really get any better, and Battie has been good value this season. There are people in Cleveland who rate Diop too, although I haven't seen a lot to suggest he's going to get a lot better. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't see the Clippers given up anyone right now because the two most tradeable players are the cornerstone, Brand and Maggette, and we wouldn't do a Rashard and Flip beacause we already have 3 SG-PG's on our team, and our first rounder can already land us a high lottery PG. (Harris or Gordon)</div> Cornerstone of what? A franchise that is going nowhere, just like Seattle. Rashard Lewis and Flip Murray is a great deal from Los Angeles' point of view, but I probably wouldn't do this from a Seattle point of view, especially if you're trading Ray. The SG/PGs you have on your team aren't as good as Flip, and there is a good chance Q leaves too. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How can the Sonics compete with Dallas for Marquis Daniels? Do you know who owns Dallas, he's a lock in staying in Dallas.</div> I agree, but we can dream, can't we?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">4) Seattle trades: C Calvin Booth, PF Reggie Evans, 2004 Sonics 2nd Round (#1), 2004 Sonics 2nd Round (#2) Seattle receives: C DeSagana Diop, C Tony Battie Cleveland trades: C DeSagana Diop, C Tony Battie Cleveland receives: C Calvin Booth, PF Reggie Evans, 2004 Sonics 2nd Round (#1), 2004 Sonics 2nd Round (#2)</div> NOOOOOOOO Thank you. Battie is our best player off the bench and DeSagana is devoping into great defensive player. If we delt those to we definatly wouldn't accept what you have to offer. We need someone who can shoot the ball, flat out.
Too Casual? Your lineup would set the Sonics so far back that they may never recover. The starting lineup that you presented is worse than the one Seattle had last year. Barry over Antonio, Ray over Maggette, and Rashard over the aging Donyell Marshall. In essence you have traded or gotten rid of four of the five starters from last year, the leading scorer off of the bench, a lottery pick from last year, and two bad contracts along with future draft picks in order to get a post who couldn't crack the starting lineup for a Portland team that just dealt away a top notch post player, along w/ some inconsequential pieces (with the exception of Maggette). You've increased the teams payroll with the aquisitions of Shareef, Battie, Moiso, Marshall, Maggette, and the amount necessary to sign Marquis Daniels (why he wouldn't start for your lineup puzzles me). Your team is older, more expensive, and less talented than the team that just finished tied for 11th in the west last year. About the only things that your team has over last year is more of an interior presence and better rebounding. Thinking outside the box is one thing, but trading or not resigning every asset that the team has is definitely a bit drastic/foolish.
Whoops, Marquis wasn't supposed to be in there. There was a scrapped sign-and-trade with Marquis and Ridnour, which wouldn't be a bad idea in reality. Anyway, the fact that my plan sucks so much is proof that you can't really expect the Sonics to get better by a large margin this offseason. This was the best I could do in the time I spent. I will explain the reasoning behind the trades now, since I was too lazy to do it before. 1) Should be obvious. Ray's starting to get unhappy, and the Sonics need a power forward. Collison was included in the deal so the Supes could get the Blazers' draft picks, but he doesn't really have to be included. 2) The Raptors desperately need a center who can start so Bosh can move to power forward. James can at least give them 20 minutes a night there. Radman would give them the shooter that they need, and Marshall would start at small forward, not power forward for the Sonics, giving some nice veteran help. 3) As Supersonic pointed out to me not long ago, pairing Murray and Ridnour in the backcourt is a disaster waiting to happen with their size, so we get the bigger Maggette to play shooting guard. The Clips do it so they no longer have an undersized small forward in Q or Maggette, and so they have their choice of Murray or Q to sign when the offseason comes around. 4) Given that Diop played 13 minutes a game this season, I didn't think he was that big of a part of the Cavs' future. Shows what I know. The main drawing card for Cleveland is the two second round picks, which they could use to get some solid help. Iron Shiek, the only players that would increase the salary in coming years are Maggette and Battie, who get increases that other players would have gotten anyway. You're acting like Shareef is a horrible player. The only reason he didn't play much in Portland is because they're developing Zach Randolph. The lineup after all these trades is much more experienced and able to score consistently. It goes from being too young to the average age (possibly younger) of an NBA team, so I don't see the problem there. And I didn't trade every assest. I kept Ridnour.
Here's the new plan (oh no...not again). 1) Seattle trades: SG Ray Allen Seattle receives: PF Shareef Abdur-Rahim 2004 Blazers 1st Round (#2) Portland trades: PF Shareef Abdur-Rahim, 2004 Blazers 1st Round (#2) Portland receives: SG Ray Allen 2) Seattle trades: SF Rashard Lewis, 2004 Sonics 2nd Round Pick (#1) Seattle receives: C Tony Battie, SF Kendrick Brown, 2004 Cleveland 1st Round Pick Cleveland trades: C Tony Battie, SF Kendrick Brown, 2004 1st Round Pick Cleveland receives: SF Rashard Lewis, 2004 Sonics 2nd Round Pick (#1) 3) Seattle trades: Luke Ridnour Seattle recieves: Marquis Daniels Dallas signs and trades: Marquis Daniels Dallas receives: Luke Ridnour Projected Roster: Shareef Abdur-Rahim Tony Battie Kendrick Brown Vitaly Potapenko Calvin Booth Jerome James Antonio Daniels Vladimir Radmanovic Nick Collison Marquis Daniels Reggie Evans Ronald Murray Richie Frahm 2004 1st Round Pick 2004 Cleveland 1st Round Pick 2004 Second Round Pick I need a Cleveland fan to tell me if the second trade works, because I can't judge Battie's value.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">I need a Cleveland fan to tell me if the second trade works, because I can't judge Battie's value.</div> That's a tough one to judge. I think I would be correct in saying that Cleveland's priority is to get a veteran shooter, thus allowing them to remove LeBron to SF. Rashard doesn't allow this, although at the same time getting a guy like Lewis for Battie (who is important) and Kedrick Brown would be touch to turn down. I'm undecided - I can see what Battie would add to this basketball team, and Brown did show glimpes of his potential in Cleveland, but I think we could probably get more for Lewis, or a player (or two) who could contribute more. Then again, for a rebuilding team, two lottery picks isn't a bad start.
No Ray of Hope I like your style Casual. You really stick w/ your guns. Love Ridnour/Hate Lewis. You are very creative w/ your lineups. I just don't think that the Sonics are in as bad a shape as everyone thinks that they are. If you trade the players that you can get substantial help for, then those are the ones you ship out. The ones who you can't get rid of b/c of their contracts, you put up for the expansion and hope the Bobcats are foolish enough to take them or you get what you can from them until their contracts expire. Ray Allen has never won on any level. He underachieved at UConn (they had 4 pros on their roster), he didn't win anything in Milwaukee (w/ three all pros), and he won't win anything in Seattle. He is a great Second option. But he seems to be too concerned w/ what is going on outside of basketball then what is going on on the court. He complains about transportation issues, Barry's contract, Nate's philosophy on coaching, his contract (which expires next year), free agent acquisitions, etc, but doesn't show the leadership necessary to win right now. Brent Barry shouldn't be that important to this team. Ray would rip Murray in the papers when Murray was playing at his best. He even missed a game after Murray was lighting up the scoreboard and blamed it on the flu. If he was so sick on Sunday, how did he come back two days later and score 43 points? He is definitely a talented player but he is no one's leader and no one's franchise player. Give him a bona fide superstar who everyone knows is the go to guy and he would succeed. For that to happen he needs to be shipped out of Seattle, preferably for a legit post. Most of the other players aren't that important b/c most of the other players (Flip, Lewis, Radmanovic, Barry excluded) aren't important pieces to the puzzle. To save the sheep we must rid ourselves of the wolves. In the Sonic case, the wolf is Allen (or at least the boy who cried wolf).
Luke Ridnour for Marquis Daniels won't work, Daniels contract is going to be Mid_Level and up which would make him untradeable one on one for Ridnour. Also Ridnour is a horrible defender, he can shoot but his all-round game doesn't even get close to Daniels. Marquis can score better, is not as good a passer, but is a better rebounder, much better defender, better scorer, and can steal just as well if we want to add that. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think these trades are unrealistic, it's just a case of being slightly biased when proposing trades using your own team. Everyone's like that, even if you don't mean to be. I disagree with the analogy that you aquire too many frontcourt players, because you're giving up as many frontcourt players in these trades as well. James, Booth, Collison and Evans are all gone in these scenarios.</div> Yea I meant unrealistic in the biased towards the Sonics way.... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Cornerstone of what? A franchise that is going nowhere, just like Seattle. Rashard Lewis and Flip Murray is a great deal from Los Angeles' point of view, but I probably wouldn't do this from a Seattle point of view, especially if you're trading Ray. The SG/PGs you have on your team aren't as good as Flip, and there is a good chance Q leaves too.</div> Well I just don't see how it benefits either team much, I think Harris or Gordon can be better PG's than Flip, and they are also atheletic and have good all-round games, FLip is not a good defender though, but Gordon's defense hasn't impressed me yet. I like Flip a lot so I wouldn't mind having him because Q-Rich might not be back and I'm not sure about Jaric at the 2. The trade basically though is Maggette for Rashard, and Flip for <font size="2">(Gordon or Harris if done during/after the draft, if before what Seattle wants :Center:, and could even be better depending on lottery or what Seattle).</font> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">2) The Raptors desperately need a center who can start so Bosh can move to power forward. James can at least give them 20 minutes a night there. Radman would give them the shooter that they need, and Marshall would start at small forward, not power forward for the Sonics, giving some nice veteran help.</div> We are looking at Free agency or even the draft to acguire a center, 20 minutes a game is not good enough for a center we'd have as our starter. Marshall is also a shooter, so trading him for another SF-PF is pretty pointless, and Marshall can't guard SF's so him at SF for the Sonics wouldn't be too good. The Raptors want PG's or someone who's an inside presence, getting a perimeter SF-PF (Carter is SF and Bosh PF anyways), and a center who can only play 20 minutes is useless. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">3) As Supersonic pointed out to me not long ago, pairing Murray and Ridnour in the backcourt is a disaster waiting to happen with their size, so we get the bigger Maggette to play shooting guard. The Clips do it so they no longer have an undersized small forward in Q or Maggette, and so they have their choice of Murray or Q to sign when the offseason comes around.</div> How about a sign and trade with the Clippers for Q-Rich instead of getting Maggette and the lottery pick becase no one wants to give up picks that high. For your new one I think it's still pushing it for the Cavs, everyone loved Battie's determination and hustle, and he was basically the best guys off the bench. Kedrick Brown can be a defensive stopper, improved his shot and still has potential, but they wouldn't hold on to him much, but the first round pick also being inclueded could be the spoiler. I think this is more feasible than the other one though, but I'm thinking Josh Childress or someone in that nature could be their first round selection. They want to move LJ to the 3 and want a shotoer at the 2.
Moving LeBron to shooting guard wouldn't really maximize his ball-handling abilities, so I'm confused as to why Cleveland would do that. I tried to fit Q into the plans somewhere, but the Sonics and Clippers have badly matching salaries. There aren't many plausible trade scenarios between the two teams.
Sometimes I think that while at the moment this team looks a mess, we may just be that one post player away from a playoff team. Add a guy that commands a double team in the post, and all of a sudden Lewis, Radmanovic, Allen (although the likely scenario is he's traded if we want that post presence), Flip and even Ridnour become that much more dangerous. Lewis struggles IMO because he can't play his natural game on the perimeter, he's always being asked to become a post presence, which he isn't suited to. Radmanovic is the same. Shareef is a guy I like, and by all accounts the Blazers are looking at going after Ray. Sure he's never been a winner, but he's never been on a good team either. He's also an average defender, but he can block shots and he's a career 9-10 rebound per game guy. He's also the sort of guy who does command the double team down low, because he is an excellent low post scorer. Is Ray straight for Reef giving up too much, though? I would ask for Portland's first rounder. Still, even with this trade, I don't see how Vlad and Rashard can co-exist, and would the management dare trade Ray and Rashard in the same offseason? If we are dealing Ray, I'd want Barry re-signed too, otherwise I worry about backcourt size.
The sonics should attempt to draft Okafor and trade him to the knicks and pick up Nazr Mohammad. The sonics need to resign barry. If you watch any sonics games you know that the sonics cant win without him and they have no idea what to do when he doesnt run the offense. Since they wont trade ridnour they should trade daniels. I love daniels, but the sonics have way too many guards. Do you think that daniels and okafor would be accepted for mohammad?
^ I think you overrate Nazr Mohammed, underrate Okafor or both there. However, Mohammed would be a good pick up for Seattle if we could get him cheaply. Does anyone know what his contract situation is like?
I'd much rather have Daniels and Okafor than Mohammed. Mohammend's contract is the same as Jerome James's, except for one more year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Supersonic:</div><div class="quote_post">Sometimes I think that while at the moment this team looks a mess, we may just be that one post player away from a playoff team. Add a guy that commands a double team in the post, and all of a sudden Lewis, Radmanovic, Allen (although the likely scenario is he's traded if we want that post presence), Flip and even Ridnour become that much more dangerous. Lewis struggles IMO because he can't play his natural game on the perimeter, he's always being asked to become a post presence, which he isn't suited to. Radmanovic is the same. Shareef is a guy I like, and by all accounts the Blazers are looking at going after Ray. Sure he's never been a winner, but he's never been on a good team either. He's also an average defender, but he can block shots and he's a career 9-10 rebound per game guy. He's also the sort of guy who does command the double team down low, because he is an excellent low post scorer. Is Ray straight for Reef giving up too much, though? I would ask for Portland's first rounder. Still, even with this trade, I don't see how Vlad and Rashard can co-exist, and would the management dare trade Ray and Rashard in the same offseason? If we are dealing Ray, I'd want Barry re-signed too, otherwise I worry about backcourt size.</div> Ahh you're overatting Shareef there, actually he's more of a face up and mid-range scorer than he is a low post scorer, he's a 8-9 rebounds a game guy, and he cannot block shots. His defense is just okay, not good, but not bad like someone like Randolph, he can also get to the line though....
^ I have a feeling you're correcting me on the rebounding stats just for the sake of argument. He's got a career average of 8.2 boards per game, but in every season bar two since then he's averaged over 9 per game, and one of those two seasons doesn't really count as he it was last season, in which he was averaging over 9 a game until he joined Portland. As for his shotblocking, he averaged around about 1 a game in his first six seasons, before joining up with Theo Ratliff. He's not a great shotblocker, but I think you're a tad harsh. He's still capable. I don't think it's unrealistic to get 18-20 and 9-10 out of him a night in Seattle, especially when you consider he'd be the main guy on the boards. He is still only 27, so he should be coming into his prime as a player, especially as first option on offense in Seattle.
Like Iron Shiek said.. if you're gonna get rid of Ray because he hasn't won and seems distracted etc, Shareef is definitely NOT who you want in return.. You're talking about a guy who has never made the playoffs, hasn't shown leadership ability on BAD teams, and has likely passed the peak of his career.. Scouts call him one dimensional because he never fully developed his game (rather stuck with his same moves his whole career.. making him an easy stop for good defenders) As for the trades.. I am all for moving Ray but certainly you can get someone better than Shareef?? ESPN's Stein raved about how Ray has played better as a Sonic than he ever did in Milwaukee.. I'd think that a lot of teams feel the same way as well.. I'd almost think that he would be attractive enough to pick up someone like C-webb or Kobe (though free agency is a whole nother matter so there goes that pipe dream).. All I know is that Ray definitely has more market value than Shareef.. Especially after the underachieving stint with the Blazers, playing off the bench or not. You and me both can dream of getting rid of Booth, Evans and James but it just seems so unlikely :/ Sonics management just screwed up huge with the contracts and teams just wont take those players for the money they're being paid..
