Page 2 <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">4) Given that Diop played 13 minutes a game this season, I didn't think he was that big of a part of the Cavs' future. Shows what I know. The main drawing card for Cleveland is the two second round picks, which they could use to get some solid help.</div> Your absolutly correct. Diop hasn't been significant threw out 82 games this season, but when we needed him the most we pulled threw and made the defensive stops we needed. Which makes him a key player to have. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">2) Seattle trades: SF Rashard Lewis, 2004 Sonics 2nd Round Pick (#1) Seattle receives: C Tony Battie, SF Kendrick Brown, 2004 Cleveland 1st Round Pick</div> I can live with that. We can REALLY use Rashard. There is a huge hole at the 3 position right now and I wouldn't pass that deal up at all. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I need a Cleveland fan to tell me if the second trade works, because I can't judge Battie's value.</div> Works out great for us, but im not sure how it would work for your Sonics. Battie will just be Battie. a 6'11 blocking machine that can only play 20 minutes a game. He has bad knees which makes him think twice about playing up to his potential every night. But when there is a sense of urgency to win a game and you are desperatly in need of boards, he will get them. If you are up 1 and with time winding down, he will make that huge block to keep your lead. Battie is an awsome athlete, I just wish he was 5 years younger.
Yeah I'm a Cleveland fan too.. Cavs are athletic enough that they can make up for Rashard's relatively weak D and they could definitely use his shooting (and hell, Rashard is a tough match at the SF spot in the NBA, plus with Boozer and LBJ he wont need to deal with double teams) My only bit is that Battie seemed like a really key player for the Cavs when he did play.. Though I guess most of the veteran leadership came from Williams. From a Sonics perspective, I'd think that they could get more for Rashard.. but someone like Battie (preferably someone healthier though--like a Dale Davis or something) is exactly what they need
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting tradebark:</div><div class="quote_post">From a Sonics perspective, I'd think that they could get more for Rashard.. but someone like Battie (preferably someone healthier though--like a Dale Davis or something) is exactly what they need</div> That's true, but at the same time many Sonic fans believe we have potentially a better small forward in Vlad Radmanovic on the roster, he just needs to be given his opportunities and consistent minutes at the 3. Battie is exactly what we need, Kedrick brown is servicable and a top 10 pick is a nice bonus - whether the team can get more value for Rashard remains to be seen. Targeting a team like Chicago, who are in need of a SF and have Chandler and Curry on the roster, as well as veteran forwards in Antonio Davis and JYD, may also be an option. All will open up after the draft lottery, that's for sure.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Supersonic:</div><div class="quote_post">^ I have a feeling you're correcting me on the rebounding stats just for the sake of argument. He's got a career average of 8.2 boards per game, but in every season bar two since then he's averaged over 9 per game, and one of those two seasons doesn't really count as he it was last season, in which he was averaging over 9 a game until he joined Portland. As for his shotblocking, he averaged around about 1 a game in his first six seasons, before joining up with Theo Ratliff. He's not a great shotblocker, but I think you're a tad harsh. He's still capable. I don't think it's unrealistic to get 18-20 and 9-10 out of him a night in Seattle, especially when you consider he'd be the main guy on the boards. He is still only 27, so he should be coming into his prime as a player, especially as first option on offense in Seattle.</div> No it wasn't for argument sake, I was just thinking if you guys were to give up Ray it shouldn't be only for Shareef I don't feel he's worth it, he can definately put up 18-20 points and 9-10 rebounds depending on how many minutes he plays. He's onl had 10 rebound a game once when he was playing 39 minutes a game. About the blocks I was serious, he can't block shots, he'll get about 1 block a game if he plays 39-40 minutes a game.
the only issue with "settling" for a bad trade with Rashard (talent-wise anyway) is that with the right team, Vlad could probably pull exactly that.. I'm saying Cleveland would probably take a Vlad for Battie type of deal, and as much potential as Vlad shows every now and then, Rashard is still the better player of the two for the time being.. And the last thing the Sonics need is question marks on their roster. Vlad "might" break out. Collison "might" be the post presence we so sorely need. We know Rashard will get at least 15 ppg on the season and we know what he's capable of basically.
I'm right w/ you tradebark. Since when is potential worth more than productivity? I think that a lot of people on this board would rather put together a team full of a bunch of nice guys w/ all of this "perceived" potential than go to war w/ a team w/ proven talent that has a little edge about them. I'm all for player development but not at the expense of winning games. Vlad has been inconsistent w/ consistent minutes. There were doubts about Collison's contribution at the NBA level before his shoulder injuries (and don't give me that crap about his contribution on the Olympic qualifying team -- anyone can look good in practice). That being said I do think both of those players can make very large contributions to the Sonics or any other NBA team. I just don't think that we should be dumping proven talent in order for these players, who could not beat out the players that we would be trading out of town, to get minutes that they might not necessarily deserve at this particular time. Remember for every 16 point 13 assist game that Luke Ridnour had (and there was only one in a seamingly meaningless game at season's end) there were games where he had more fouls than minutes played. I wouldn't hand over my keys to a "potential" driver. The Sonics shouldn't hand over this team to "potential" talent.
I agree, maybe it's the fact that I'm a Rashard fan but I would much rather have him holding down the 3 spot than Vladimir Radmanovic. Like Iron Sheik said, the Sonics aren't in a position where they can bank on possibilities. Inconsistent as Shard may be, he has proven that he is capable of playing at the highest level on a team that was overly inconsistent last season. I believe that Rashard would blossom in a situation with a dominant post player so he can be the finesse, sweet shooting player that he is. He is not a team leader nor is he a superstar...but he is more worthy to be a second option than Radman. I believe we can get a big guy better than our current postmen by trading Vlad...we will upgrade in the paint no matter who we trade but I feel that trading Rashard would be a downgrade at the SF position.
Rashard is the more consistent scorer, not player. Vlad has shown much more of an all-around game in regards to his defense, ball-handling, and effort. While none are spectacular, they're all better than Lewis's at this point. There's no reason to believe Radman couldn't put up close to the same numbers Lewis is now, because they're the same type of player. Vlad has always said he shoots better when he's in the starting lineup, and I believe him.
I do remember Vlad getting benched for lack of effort on the defensive end (ask Nate about his defensive contributions versus Kenyon Martin). As far as him shooting better in the starting lineup, most people do put up more points the more minutes they get. I do not think that ball handling/passing is a strength for Vlad considering his moves consists of him beating someone off of the dribble who is closing out on his jump shot (not putting the ball on the floor with a defender already positioned to cover him) and his passing contributions are strictly from ball reversals (when he chooses to). Vlad is not the poster boy for hustle and considering the Rashard played in over 90% of the games this season, I don't think that his work ethic/commitment should be so vehemently ridiculed. Besides 60 million dollar contracts are harder to trade than rookie contracts.
Vlad is just straight up streaky.. And the Sonics have enough of those, really. Does Vlad have a post up game? Does Vlad really take advantage of his size advantage at the 3 spot? Because face-up is really not how that's done if you ask me. If he was a better (read:consistent) shooter, then we might have a poor man's Stojakovic on our hands.. But even that can't be counted on; Vlad will never draw a double team because any half decent defender can take him.. He's an impact player when his game is on, no doubt. But I dont want a "maybe" in my starting lineup.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting tradebark:</div><div class="quote_post">Vlad is just straight up streaky.. And the Sonics have enough of those, really. Does Vlad have a post up game? Does Vlad really take advantage of his size advantage at the 3 spot? Because face-up is really not how that's done if you ask me. If he was a better (read:consistent) shooter, then we might have a poor man's Stojakovic on our hands.. But even that can't be counted on; Vlad will never draw a double team because any half decent defender can take him.. He's an impact player when his game is on, no doubt. But I dont want a "maybe" in my starting lineup.</div> Does Rashard have a post up game at the moment either? I don't think it would be wise to trade both Ray and Rashard, and I'm pretty sure that won't happen, but as it stands Rashard is going to get you more on the market than Vlad is, and I don't think the difference between them is as big as people think. If we're trading Ray for that post presence, then it probably isn't wise to look at dealing Rashard as well (I admit some of us have gone over the top with our potential deals), but if Ray stays, then I think it's smarter to look at dealing Rashard first. You can look at Vlad's inconsistant play all you like, bottom line is he is NOT a power forward, and that's where he played. In fact he put up reasonable numbers when you consider he was being played out of position - how he defended K-Mart I don't think is an issue, because he shouldn't have to be defending those sorts of players. It's risky no doubt, but IMO it's a game of risks. You lose, then you lose, but I am convinced we'll get more out of Vlad long term than Lewis at the three. Vlad isn't the poster boy for hustle too, but at least he shows some aggression at times, and he is a better rebounder and defender than Lewis IMO. Of course a 60mill contract is harder to trade than a rookie deal, but it's also going to get you more back, unless you want to settle for similar unproven talent.
I know Radman isn't that aggressive himself...which is why I simply said he was more aggressive (and a better ball-handler and rebounder) than Lewis. Which he is. It doesn't mean he's one of the best in the NBA in any of those categories. You can't rip Vladimir for not doing certain things when Lewis couldn't do them either.
First I have to say that I'm actually NOT a Lewis fan at all. I think he's soft and I generally don't like soft players.. He isnt a great finisher, falls in love with his mediocre jump shot, and doesnt have a solid post-up game (though he has improved). Capable of big games (Hello Clippers in Japan!) but also not someone you see in the 4th quarter very often (possibly fatigued?).. However, many scouts, coaches, and GM's give him a lot of praise because he has the ability to dominate his position on the floor, if it were single coverage. He's at that point between SF and PF where he is able to keep up with smaller players (thanks to his length) and is able to shoot over them easily as well. I'm not arguing at all that he is a future all-star as the Sonics seem to market him as.. He is a solid player with potential. Now, the thing with him is that the Sonics havent HAD a good 4 or 5 in the past few years, which is when Rashard has "developed" his game. This frees up opponents to double team him if he tries to post up on his man.. The result? Rashard rushes his post-up game and often finishes with a move (usually a shot) away from help before help even commits.. If you're talking potential, I want to see what he can do when there is a legit 4 or 5 that opponents have to respect. Someone who can allow Lewis the leeway to post up his smaller defender.. No knock on Vladimir. He sometimes seems to work hard and sometimes not (same with Lewis).. His game is obviously not as polished given he plays limited minutes (though IMO the effect may actually be the cause in this case). He has good range, no post up game, "immature" defense (lots of gambling for steals), good size/body for his natural position, and not much leadership ability it seems. Rashard isnt the poster boy for that either, but he seems to be the more vocal of the two. Again, they're both good players and all.. I just haven't seen anything to indicate that Vlad is someone you can count on for production. Rashard, shortcomings and all, is an established scorer in the league after the past two seasons. I understand that many 'experts' (columnists, sportswriters, scouts etc) say that Vlad is poised for a Nowitzki-like breakout season any year now, and indeed that is a very tempting notion.. BUT! and here comes my rationale: The Sonics should keep Rashard but "downgrade" his status on the team. Rather than pushing him to be an allstar playing heavy minutes and taking a ton of shots, he should be the third option.. Play him at the 3 where he can provide a mismatch, and let him put up his 15 a night. What the Sonics need are players with a level of consistency.. It's fairly obvious that run-and-gun poor man's Mavericks isn't gonna get us anywhere in the regular season much less the playoffs, so the outlook must be changed. Which is to say, it's futile to argue whether or not Vlad will develop over time.. Obviously your guess is as good as mine, but what I'm saying is that the Sonics really dont have TIME to let this guy come into his own, at least not at the expense of the team if he does not. We need consistency, we need reliability, we need wins. WE NEED TO BE BACK IN THE PLAYOFFS!!
I think it is crystal clear, given some of the comments made by both players at the end of the season, that we're not going to see both Vlad and Rashard on the same roster next season. If that's the case, Vlad will walk once his rookie deal is up. You make some great points in regards to rashard, tradebark, but how are we going to get that post presence, yet still leave Lewis as the third option? Unless we luck out in the draft, it's likely going to have to be either Ray or Rashard that gets sacrificed. If Ray is that guy, then Rashard is still our second option. Then again, who knows what would happen if he had a guy in the post demanding a double team. Dangle Vlad in front of Chicago, try and land Tyson Chandler?
In fact he put up reasonable numbers when you consider he was being played out of position - how he defended K-Mart I don't think is an issue, because he shouldn't have to be defending those sorts of players. (Quote from Supersonic) Isn't true that K-Mart is shorter and weighs less than Radmonovic. If he has trouble keeping up w/ the quick power forwards, how do you think he's going to stay w/ quick small forwards that can beat you in a variety of ways (other than just getting out and running like K-Mart does)?
Weight does not always translate to strength and athleticism, both of which Martin has over Radmanovic in spades. As far as Rashard goes, I'm all for having him be a third option, but he's getting paid like a second option and has more value at this point. I see no reason why Radmanovic can't put up the same 15 points as a third option like Lewis.
It's possible yes, but ultimately it's hearsay. If we were an expansion team or in "rebuilding mode," then Vlad may be better since Shard will get us a bigger name in return. As for "third option" I mostly meant that he wouldnt be the one we'd pass to. Obviously he wont lead the team in scoring (assuming Ray is here) but he may still score the 2nd most despite being the 3rd option (if that makes sense?) So if you have a PF that is a decent scorer (or even better demands double teams), this will allow Rashard to fulfill his potential.. If it turns out that Rashard is in fact only capable of what he's giving us right now (~15PPG, soft game, etc) then he will in essence become the 3rd option by default.. If he does fulfill his potential then he will again probably be brought down to his current numbers by double teams etc. and the PF will become more a focal pt of the offense (to either score or allow Rashard space) I have no illusions that Rashard will turn into an allstar; in fact I think it's a safe bet that he won't unless he drastically changes his game. However he will be able to score more if double teams werent viable against him, and he will positively impact the team especially if we can make people pay with our PF. As for who we'd get? I was realling hoping to swing some kind of deal to get Dampier or Foyle.. They're capable down low which is all we really need. They can generally beat most other people at the 5 spot and can finish and board. Realistically i think those are the best we can get without giving up Ray/Rashard or even Vlad (tho sounds like at least one of them is definitely gone)..
That's all fine tradebark, but we're paying Rashard a helluva lot of money. As I'm sure you are too, I am sick to death of watching Seattle guys not living up to their contracts. I would rather put Rashard out on the market and see what we can get back for him, then pay him star money for 15 points a game.
Hmm, correct me here cus I am probably wrong but: Rashard's contract is done this year isnt it? He's being paid ~$7 Mil or so (which is slightly more than the league average of $5.5).. Not overly unreasonable if you ask me.. Vlad gets around a third of that at $2.3M, but his contract expires after next year (?) and I'd think we'd expect him to want a raise..
