<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brian @ Feb 13 2008, 09:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dallas Fans: "WE GOT KIDD!!!!! WHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!" Dirk: "Yeah. Time to get laid." Avery: "The General tips his hat" Mark Cuban: "Dallas will love me! We got Kidd!" "YEEEEEEE HAAAAWWWW!!!!! Gump: "What?? New Jersey?? That's too long of a plane ride. I decline. lolz" Dallas Fans: wtf</div> Brian you did it again! HAHA Kobe probably called up Devean for the favor lol.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Feb 13 2008, 09:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yup. I read the article (for whatever reason) and it was retarded - all he used was stats, every kind of stat possible. He didn't factor in Kidd's size, to counter Baron Davis, who owned Harris.</div> That's one guy. Harris is OVERALL a better perimeter defender, isn't he? <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'> He didn't factor in Kidd's experience, he's been to the finals twice. </div> Intangibles, you have no idea how much this helps. You didn't factor in J-Kidd's contract next season. You have not sufficiently retorted that article. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He didn't factor in the fact that Kidd can create a running game for Dallas - which Dallas doesn't have.</div> Even with Nash the Mavericks were not suited for running. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He didn't include that Kidd is still good at pickpocketing.</div> Sounds like you're undervaluing Kidd's bad percentages. a TS% of 49 is 4% below the average. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He failed to even mention that Kidd's actually been healthier than Harris as of late.</div> Harris obviously has a better future, and he's played in 39 games this season. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He failed to mention the fact that Dallas doesn't exactly need scoring, they've got plenty of scorers on the team right now.</div> Devin is a better defender and scorer in an offense that doesn't rely on passing. They don't exactly need Kidd. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He didn't really mention how Kidd will set up all of the inept big men with easy buckets - Dampier, Bass, etc.</div> Hollinger did account for this. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And he forgot about the factor that Kidd will, in fact, play much better than he has all of this season so far - because of motivation, and being traded to another team. Hollinger is a dummy.</div> Intangible, you have no idea how he'll play. Even if Kidd played the way he did last season, he's still not a great fit for Dallas.
Sounds like a chicken-and-egg problem: does Dallas run so many iso's because of Harris' lack of playmaking ability or is Harris less of a playmaker because Dallas runs so many iso's? EDIT: damnit, cpaw beat me to it.
Guys, these is a dead even trade for Dallas and NJ. Expect Kidd to play re-energized when going to Dallas, and Harris is a very good future PG, and with the expiring contracts, it makes it a good trade. JKidd IS a better defensive player than Harris, but Harris kicks Kidd's ass when it comes to taking it to the hoop. For this season only, the trade favors Dallas, but in the future, NJ made out like bandits.
Dallas runs ISOs because they have players that are good match ups to run ISOs. It's awfully tough to guard a 7.1 guy who can post up and also hit 3pt shots with consistency, for example.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakerman34 @ Feb 13 2008, 10:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Guys, these is a dead even trade for Dallas and NJ. Expect Kidd to play re-energized when going to Dallas, and Harris is a very good future PG, and with the expiring contracts, it makes it a good trade. JKidd IS a better defensive player than Harris, but Harris kicks Kidd's ass when it comes to taking it to the hoop. For this season only, the trade favors Dallas, but in the future, NJ made out like bandits.</div> How do you know Kidd is a better defender?
I think Jason Kidd is a great player, but I do not envision him taking Dallas to a championship. He'll give them a couple wins here and there, but at the end of the day, they have absolutely no post presence. Teams in the West will use that as an advantage and dominate them in the paint every single night. Who's going to match up against Gasol/Bynum, Amare/Shaq, Duncan, or Camby? Dirk? Ericka Dampier? I still don't see Dallas being a very dangerous team (assuming this trade went down) even with Jason Kidd. Also, Kidd is 34 or 35 years old. He's getting paid 20 million a year, and he's asking for an extension. You really have to wonder how much money Cuban is willing to spend on someone who will decline from here on out.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakerman34 @ Feb 13 2008, 10:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Guys, these is a dead even trade for Dallas and NJ. Expect Kidd to play re-energized when going to Dallas, and Harris is a very good future PG, and with the expiring contracts, it makes it a good trade. JKidd IS a better defensive player than Harris, but Harris kicks Kidd's ass when it comes to taking it to the hoop. For this season only, the trade favors Dallas, but in the future, NJ made out like bandits.</div> Kidd was a better defender than Harris. Not anymore. The age is getting to him, and he's not going to get any better.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Feb 13 2008, 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lakerman34 @ Feb 13 2008, 10:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Guys, these is a dead even trade for Dallas and NJ. Expect Kidd to play re-energized when going to Dallas, and Harris is a very good future PG, and with the expiring contracts, it makes it a good trade. JKidd IS a better defensive player than Harris, but Harris kicks Kidd's ass when it comes to taking it to the hoop. For this season only, the trade favors Dallas, but in the future, NJ made out like bandits.</div> How do you know Kidd is a better defender? </div> 1st team all-defensive last yr.? He's older, so what? He's playing in a city he rather not be in, once he gets to Dallas, we will be seeing a 25 yr. old JKidd again. Good enough to face the Lakers? I dont think so...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Feb 13 2008, 10:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Feb 13 2008, 09:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Feb 13 2008, 09:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Feb 13 2008, 09:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Lets see, I had someone tell me earlier today that Hollinger essentially wrote it was a bad trade for the Mavs and it was very easy to infer from your posts that he wrote in opposition to the trade. Add to this that I know Hollinger bases everything upon PER and projected PER, I don't need to read the article to know that it is tripe. Hollinger is an extremely poor basketball analyst when it comes to predicting things. He is decent at analyzing what has happened as the actual stats are there for him. When he projects things, he is worse than your average poster because his fundamental understanding of the game is poor.</div> But if you don't read his article, then if he actually made an analysis without using PER, you would have no clue, would you? Your buddy's summary of the article could be inadequate as well. Which it was. </div> Why would I waste my time reading an article by Hollinger where he was making an analysis without using PER? I've already stated I have no respect for his basketball analysis. </div> So you don't want to waste your time, great, but why then do you continue to generalize his articles? Why are you critiquing articles you haven't read? I don't critique books I haven't heard of. Steve Nash was limited in the Dallas offense as well, and he was a far better shooter at that point then Kidd is now. Everything JH stated recently is legitimate. </div> Shape just posted the final conclusion from the article and it was horrible. Another poster posted in this thread about the article and his analysis. None of that conflicts my generalizations. As for Nash, please point out when he played for Avery Johnson </div> Hollinger arrived at that conclusion by making valid points. You have not read the points that lead to this conclusion. The other poster that read the article also generalized. Now if he had reposted the article, and addressed every paragraph or so, then he would have quite a worthy reply. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>1st team all-defensive last yr.? He's older, so what? He's playing in a city he rather not be in, once he gets to Dallas, we will be seeing a 25 yr. old JKidd again. Good enough to face the Lakers? I dont think so...</div> He was second team last year, and those are based off reputations anyway.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Feb 13 2008, 10:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Feb 13 2008, 09:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yup. I read the article (for whatever reason) and it was retarded - all he used was stats, every kind of stat possible. He didn't factor in Kidd's size, to counter Baron Davis, who owned Harris.</div> That's one guy. Harris is OVERALL a better perimeter defender, isn't he? ..... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And he forgot about the factor that Kidd will, in fact, play much better than he has all of this season so far - because of motivation, and being traded to another team. Hollinger is a dummy.</div> Intangible, you have no idea how he'll play. Even if Kidd played the way he did last season, he's still not a great fit for Dallas. </div> What does Kidd's contract have to do with Kidd's experience in the playoffs? And it's expiring next season. So what? And you didn't note the fact that Nash played for Nelson, not Avery. And what the hell does TS% have to with steals? Oh yeah, Harris has a better future. What does that matter, if Dallas is trying to win a championship this season or the next? <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He failed to mention the fact that Dallas doesn't exactly need scoring, they've got plenty of scorers on the team right now.</div> Devin is a better defender and scorer in an offense that doesn't rely on passing. They don't exactly need Kidd. </div> I'm not too sure how that is replying to the point I made at all. Maybe they don't "need" Kidd, but I'd bet they'd sure as hell would be better with him. Oh, and the big man thing, I forgot he mentioned it. I guess I was thinking that a poster said that, but it must've been JH. And I have an idea of how he'll play. Remember when Kidd got traded from the Suns to the Nets? People didn't think the Nets would be doing anything. But, Kidd played better when he got to the Nets, as if he was more motivated.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Feb 13 2008, 10:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>What does Kidd's contract have to do with Kidd's experience in the playoffs? And it's expiring next season. So what?</div> Well I'm merely weighing all the factors in this trade to determine Kidd's OVERALL impact. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And you didn't note the fact that Nash played for Nelson, not Avery.</div> Nash was also a superior PG at that time too, you didn't point that out. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And what the hell does TS% have to with steals?</div> Again, understand that I am mentioning things you forgot about. When did I say TS% had anything to do with Steals? TS% is far more important of course though, Steals almost mean jack. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Oh yeah, Harris has a better future. What does that matter, if Dallas is trying to win a championship this season or the next?</div> But I didn't just say Harris has a better future. The Mavs are a better team without committing the Harris trade. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not too sure how that is replying to the point I made at all. Maybe they don't "need" Kidd, but I'd bet they'd sure as hell would be better with him.</div> If Kidd does not struggle against Baron, he will struggle against other players. So what if Harris doesn't have God-like defense, he's still better than Kidd defensively. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Oh, and the big man thing, I forgot he mentioned it. I guess I was thinking that a poster said that, but it must've been JH. And I have an idea of how he'll play. Remember when Kidd got traded from the Suns to the Nets? People didn't think the Nets would be doing anything. But, Kidd played better when he got to the Nets, as if he was more motivated.</div> He could play better, or worse, you have no idea. Even so, he's not much of an upgrade for the Mavs. What, is he going back to his Prime now?
Sorry, I didn't realize this was a video game. BTW, you only addressed less than half of the points I've made, and pretty much avoided addressing all the rest. Nice one, bush.
I don't foresee this helping Dallas out at all, and if it does, it won't put them to the next level. For one, they have NO, and when I say no, I mean NO inside presence whatsoever. As much as Dirk wants to be, he's never going to be more than an oversized SF who occasionally takes it to the hoop. Beyond that, Damp isn't what we'd call an offensive powerhouse. Hell, they don't even have good interior defense now if they ditch Diop. He at least could alter and block shots and make things more complicated for players to take it to the post. Now, all the burden is going to go on Damp. And what if he gets in foul trouble? They really don't have any depth at the 4/5 to make up for any of them getting in foul trouble. So, look at it this way as well. Who in the hell is going to defend Tim Duncan, Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol, Amare Stoudemire, Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, etc. By losing Diop, they have no one that can really guard them. And at the worst, they lose 6 fouls a game as well at that spot, cause they're going to be very thin up front now. And what does Kidd really bring? Sure, he's a slightly better defender than Harris, but that's about it. His playmaking skills are fantastic, but you lose any type of scoring you get from the PG because Kidd has never been and never will be a scorer. And what happens when he goes against the quicker PGs out West? He is by no means slow, but his quickness isn't what it used to be, especially with lateral movement. I honestly think he'll have trouble staying in front of the quicker Western guards (i.e. Baron, Parker, Ellis, etc.). So, while he may be more physical and can take more of a pounding in the post, I think the quicker guys will be able to get by him easier than they would be able to get by Harris. In the end, this MIGHT make them better this year, but in the end, it really mortgages their future to an extent. Kidd has what, a couple good years left in him probably? What happens after that? Terry is 30 (or 31?), so he's not going to be around for more than five years or so. So what happens after he retires? You best hope you can find a decent one in the draft, because good points guards are almost as hard to come by as good bigs. Plus, the other issue with him is they're going to have absorb a huge cap hit. With him, Dirk, Terry and Howard all making a good chunk of money, they're going to have zero cap flexibility and will be paying luxury tax out the ass. Basically, this team HAS to win this year or next year, otherwise it's a failed experiment and the Nets will be laughing at them for giving up a PG with mounds of potential for one that's only got a couple years left in him.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Feb 13 2008, 10:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Sorry, I didn't realize this was a video game.</div> So only APG matters?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Moo2K4 @ Feb 13 2008, 10:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>g t I don't foresee this helping Dallas out at all, and if it does, it won't put them to the next level. For one, they have NO, and when I say no, I mean NO inside presence whatsoever. As much as Dirk wants to be, he's never going to be more than an oversized SF who occasionally takes it to the hoop. Beyond that, Damp isn't what we'd call an offensive powerhouse. Hell, they don't even have good interior defense now if they ditch Diop. He at least could alter and block shots and make things more complicated for players to take it to the post. Now, all the burden is going to go on Damp. And what if he gets in foul trouble? They really don't have any depth at the 4/5 to make up for any of them getting in foul trouble. So, look at it this way as well. Who in the hell is going to defend Tim Duncan, Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol, Amare Stoudemire, Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, etc. By losing Diop, they have no one that can really guard them. And at the worst, they lose 6 fouls a game as well at that spot, cause they're goino be very thin up front now.</div> You and Shape have made very good points, with losing Diop. They're really screwing themselves there. I mean really, do they think Bass is good enough to guard those guys? How tall is he, 6'8? Dallas would be screwing themselves over big time by giving up Diop.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Feb 13 2008, 10:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Feb 13 2008, 10:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Sorry, I didn't realize this was a video game.</div> So only APG matters? </div> Well, there's other stats, too. But intangibles sure don't matter.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Feb 13 2008, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Feb 13 2008, 10:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Feb 13 2008, 10:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Sorry, I didn't realize this was a video game.</div> So only APG matters? </div> Well, there's other stats, too. But intangibles sure don't matter. </div> Your argument relies on intangibles. It's less valid. Hollinger goes mad when he uses stats no one can understand. However, TS% is quite a simple concept to comprehend. When did I make a Video game argument? I have stated what Moo has as well.
Mavs have created their own big 4 BUT... its the backcourt version compared to our fronline version Kidd, Terry, Howard, Dirk vs. Kobe, Odom, Pau, Bynum... Lakers win coz Dallas just lost a defensive big man in diop... so no one would cover once dampier is on the bench
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Feb 13 2008, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Moo2K4 @ Feb 13 2008, 10:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>g t I don't foresee this helping Dallas out at all, and if it does, it won't put them to the next level. For one, they have NO, and when I say no, I mean NO inside presence whatsoever. As much as Dirk wants to be, he's never going to be more than an oversized SF who occasionally takes it to the hoop. Beyond that, Damp isn't what we'd call an offensive powerhouse. Hell, they don't even have good interior defense now if they ditch Diop. He at least could alter and block shots and make things more complicated for players to take it to the post. Now, all the burden is going to go on Damp. And what if he gets in foul trouble? They really don't have any depth at the 4/5 to make up for any of them getting in foul trouble. So, look at it this way as well. Who in the hell is going to defend Tim Duncan, Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol, Amare Stoudemire, Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, etc. By losing Diop, they have no one that can really guard them. And at the worst, they lose 6 fouls a game as well at that spot, cause they're goino be very thin up front now.</div> You and Shape have made very good points, with losing Diop. They're really screwing themselves there. I mean really, do they think Bass is good enough to guard those guys? How tall is he, 6'8? Dallas would be screwing themselves over big time by giving up Diop. </div> He's probably 6'8" or 6'9" with a solid build. However, it doesn't matter how strong you are when the opposing team's bigs are anywhere from 4" to 8" taller than you. The other thing I neglect to mention is rebounding. Diop did a serviceable job on the glass. I realize Kidd is a solid rebounder for a guard, but lets be fair. He plays out East, where great bigs are lacking in comparison to the West. Plus, he was on a team full of piss poor rebounders. Can you really expect him to keep grabbing 8rpg in the Western Conference? That was one thing you could expect out of Diop. While he doesn't give you jack on offense, he can at least rebound and defend the post. Kidd won't be able to defend the post and his rebounding numbers might go down since he'll be playing against bigger competition nightly.
