OT: Greatest Center Ever

I don't think Robinson is the best center ever, but not due to not "leading" a team to a title. I don't think team accomplishments are a very good measure of individuals. It's not like he was on teams that would be considered extremely talented without him, pre-Duncan.

 

PER is miscalculated for Bigs, usually 2-4 points higher (1-2 decrease, with a 1-2 increase for perimeter players) than what it should be since the formula applies the same assisted bucket rate to guards and centers IIRC. Just wanted to say that, although everyone in this discussion should be affected somewhat equally, but it would alter leading the league in PER or whatever.

For this argument I'd probably go with one of the more modern centers, just by preference. I think the talent pool has grown considerably and with that the average player's skill/athleticism and the like, traits even pace can not account for. Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Rob whatever I'm good. Duncan can also easily be considered a center.

 

Until Sergio Rodriguez retires and we can add him to the list, of course.

 

What a sadly misinformed point of view - and unfortunately it's one that has been perpetuated to the point where it's almost universally accepted as fact by those who are too young to have seen Wilt play.

When Wilt came into the league, and for all those years when he was putting up numbers that boggle the mind, there were only 8 or 9 teams in the league. Yes, there were some big white stiffs playing center in those days, just like there have been in every era since. But there were also several hall of fame centers from that era. So, that meant that about half of Wilt's games in his prime were played against future hall of fame centers. He wasn't playing in some watered down league with 30 teams - 26 or 27 with absolutely shitty, talentless centers. By contrast, during Shaq's prime (after Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson retired and before Yao Ming) the center position was UNBELIEVABLY weak. During the 2000-2001 season, the middle of the Lakers 3-peat, Dikembe Mutombo was the 2nd best center in the league, with a scoring average of 10.0 PPG. During 2001-02, they didn't even pick a center for 2nd team all-NBA. Instead, they went with three power forwards (KG, Dirk and C-Webb). That's how weak the center position was in those days. In 2002-03, Ben Wallace was 2nd team all-NBA with a 6.9 PPG scoring average - the 2nd best center in the league couldn't even score 7 PPG! Shaq in his prime played against a hell of a lot more big white (and black) stiffs than Wilt did.

Wilt was simply the most amazing athlete to have ever lived. Wilt was as big as Shaq, stronger and much more athletic. In addition to being 7'1" tall, he was a champion high jumper, hurdler and shot putter. There has never been another human being with such a unique combination of size, strength and speed as Wilt Chamberlain - and he used those unique skills to dominate the sport of basketball like no one before, or since.

Concerning the PER argument for Shaq, it's totally bogus. Yes, Shaq's career PER is 0.1 higher than Wilt's. But, the reason is simple. They didn't keep track of blacks and steals during Wilters entire career (they started the year after he retired). If they would have, I uspect Wilt's PER would have been much higher. Also, Shaq's career isn't over yet. Like Wilt, the longer he plays the lower his PER will go. I suspect after next season, Wilt will have "passed" Shaq in the career PER department (even without the benefit of blocks and steals).

Wilt was the most dominant player ever in the history of any team sport. He was basketball's Babe Ruth and Wayne Gretzky. He averaged over 50 PPG for an entire season. Nobody else has ever averaged 37.1 PPG. Wilt topped that mark 4 times and has five of the top six scoring seasons in NBA history. Wilt is also the only player to have averaged over 25 RPG - he did it three times and has six of the top seven RPG seasons in NBA history. Even in his last season, at the age of 36, Wilt led the league in rebounding (for the 11th time) - and set the record for FG% at 0.727, breaking his own record of 0.683 set in 1966-67.

When he was criticized for not being a good team player, Wilt went out and led the league in assists. No other center has ever come close to that - and he also led the league in rebounding that year, becoming the only player to ever lead the league in both rebounding and assists. And, it's not like he was a bad passer before that. In the two previous seasons he had averaged 5.2 and 7.8 APG to go with the 8.6 APG he averaged in 1967-68.

Russell gets all the credit for being a winner and winning so many championships, but when Wilt was surrounded with talent, he also won. When he retired, he had played on the two winningest teams in NBA history - the 69-13 1971-72 Lakers and the 68-13 1966-67 Philadelphia 76ers.

Late in his career, Wilt went head-to-head with Kareem/Lew Alcindor. When Kareem (then Lew) entered the league, he was an amazing offensive talent - the greatest scorer since Wilt's early years. His sky hook was thought to be unstoppable. During the 1971-72 season, Kareem led the league in scoring at 34.8 PPG. The Bucks and Lakers met in the Western Conference finals that year, in what was probably the greatest big man match-up in NBA play-off history. Ironically, the match-up was very similar to the old Wilt/Russell match-ups during the 1960s, only this time, Wilt's role was reversed. He was now the dominant defender, rebounder, team player trying to stop the younger, taller, unstoppable scoring machine. That was the first, last and only time I have ever cheered for the Lakers. Wilt at 35, and well past his athletic prime, did what no one thought possible in that series, he blocked the sky hook - twice. His defense on Kareem won the series for the Lakers. The Lakers went on to win the finals in an easy 5 game series over the Knicks and Wilt was named the Finals MVP.

Wilt wasn't just a myth. The things he accomplished were very real. Nobody will very come close to changing the game the way he did. He was such a great athlete that he would have dominated the sport in any generation. I've seen all the great centers play. I missed Wilt's early career, but have very distinct memories of his mid and late career. I remember Kareem/Lew as a rookie and of course Shaq and Hakeem through college and their entire NBA careers. I can honestly say that if Wilt was in his 20s today he would EASILY be the best center in the league right now - and it wouldn't be close. He was more athletic (could jump higher and run faster) than Dwight Howard (and 3" taller) and stronger than Shaq. He was, without a doubt, the best center to ever play the game.

My list:

Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Hakeem
Shaq
David Robinson

BNM

 

Yes, an unfortunate typo. The kind that slip by the spell checker.

While athletes in general have gotten, bigger, stronger and faster from generation to generation, a lot of that has to do with nutrition and training methods. I believe the best of the best would be good in any generation. Imagine Babe Ruth on steroids, with a proper diet and modern training methods - and an agent that's pushing him to be the best in the game to get the hugest contract. There would literally be hundreds of millions of dollars at stake. Babe grew up as a poor orphan and always craved attention and also financially motivated.

Also, the gap in athletic performance between the best of the best isn't as wide as the gap between the average athletes from era to era. Most track and field records creep forward in hundredths of seconds and tenths of inches. Occasionally lasting for a decade, or more without being broken. I remeber having this argument several years ago and pointing out that Jesse Owens, based on his winning times/distances from 1936, would have been the best athlete on the 2000 US Olympic team. He would have been the top US finisher in the three individual events he won in Berlin and would have finished no worse than 8th in any event. Think about that - 64 years later, Jesse Owens from 1936 would have still been one of the top track and field athletes in the world. And remember, he didn't have the advantage of modern equipment, nutrition and training methods and was tunning on a cinder track.

So, while Wilt might not have put up the same numbers in the current era as he did in the 1960s, I think he still would be THE dominat center in today's NBA. He might not average 50 PPG for a season (mostly due to the slower pace and lower over all scoring), but I think he would lead the league in scoring, rebounding and blocks multiple times, win multiple MVPs and multiple rings. There isn't a player in the league today that can match Wilt's combination of size, strength, speed and endurance. Shaq in his prime comes closest. He can match Wilt's size, would not be overwhelmed by Wilt's strength, but can't match Wilt's speed, athletic ability, or endurance. Shaq is the dominant center of the current era. If Wilt had played in the same era, he would have been better than Shaq. Wilt was a better scorer, rebounder and defender than Shaq. For most of his career, Shaq put very little effort into rebounding and defense. He mostly rested on defense to conserve his energy for the offensive end. Wilt always took great pride in his rebounding and defense, and even in his mid-30s was the leading rebounder in the league and a dominant defender.

BNM

 

Hate to say it, but Shaq would eat any of the centers on that list up. He is physically more dominate then any of them.

 

So Wilt wasn't a real deal?

 

I'd take Kareem over Wilt any day of the week. He was the better Offensive AND Defensive weapon, the more successful winner, and the more dominating performer in the playoffs.

One quote though by Larry Brown that caught my eye about Wilt.

Of all his memories of Wilt Chamberlain, the one that stood out for Larry Brown happened long after Chamberlain's professional career had ended. On a summer day in the early 1980s, when Brown was coaching at UCLA, Chamberlain showed up at Pauley Pavilion to take part in one of the high-octane pickup games that the arena constantly attracted. "Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled Tuesday after hearing that Chamberlain, his friend, had died at 63, "and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt. "So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one [of Johnson's] shots get to the rim." Chamberlain would have been in his mid-40s at the time, and he remained in top physical shape until recently.

 

He led the league in assists because he would pass up wide open dunks and shots. He'd be standing under the hoop with an uncontested dunk and would pass off because he was trying to fulfill his own agenda. He wasn't a team player, it was all about him.

Also Wilt was not stronger than Shaq....ever. Wilt was 275, Shaq as a rookie came in at 285, when he was the most dominant player on the planet he was pushing 315 that's about 40 pounds Shaq had on him.

 

Actually, they did. But, it wasn't because he was so dominate, it was because he couldn't shoot free throws.

 

No just once.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_yearly.html

 

The NCAA changed its rules due to Kareem though.

 

Wrong. Shaq was never even close to the athlete was. Was Shaq a champion high jumper and shot putter?

From The Sporting News, December 21, 1955:

"At Overbrook High School in Philly, he high jumped 6 feet, 6 inches, ran the 440 in 49.0 seconds and the 880 in 1:58.3, put the shot 53 feet, 4 inches, broad jumped 22 feet."

That was in high school. He went even higher in the high jump and threw the shot further at KU. Do you honestly think Shaq could have done one of those things in his prime? I don't think he could have come close to any of them.

Wilt was as big as Shaq, stronger, could run faster and jump higher/further.

Based on your comment, I'm guessing you never saw Wilt play, let alone saw him in his prime.

P.S. Wilt was also running marathons and 50-mile runs in his 60's. He averaged over 48 MPG one season. Add endurance to the other ways Wilt was a superior athlete to Shaq.

BNM

 

Don't confuse being fat with being strong. The 275 weight for Wilt was early in his career. He played at a heavier weight, probably around 300 - 305 lbs. in his 30s. In either case, he was far, far stronger than Shaq.

BNM

 

I'm not. I've seen Wilt play and in no way was he ever stronger than Shaq. Faster, more athletically gifted, then yes I agree with you.

In either case, he was far, far stronger than Shaq.

Are you being serious, because I"m taking that as an obvious hyperbole.

 

Olajuwon may have averaged 3.9 ppg more than Shaq, but Shaq had a FG% 11% higher!! That is a big difference in efficiency.

 

Yeah, that's a good point.