I have to give Jordan the edge, with the deciding factor being he didn't treat the pre-game warm-ups as practice for the local dinner theater amateur night.
I disagree that Lebron has been as dominant a scorer as Jordan. In Jordan's six years he averaged over 30 ppg 4 of those six seasons with his highest average in 86-87 being 37.1! While Lebron has been dominant, he's been nowhere near the volume score Jordan was. Lebron averaged over 30 ppg only twice during his first six years with his highest average totaling 31.4, which is lower than any of Jordan's 30 ppg seasons during his first six years. Someone earlier had said that Jordan had up to thirty 50 point games while Lebron has had only eight to this point. No one in this thread has taken PER into account Jordan-Lebron 25.8-18.3 27.5-25.7 29.8-28.1 31.7-24.5 31.1-29.1 31.2-31.7 In conclusion, Jordan was the more dominant scorer, better defender, and more efficient player. Lebron is the better passer but remember Jordan was no slouch topping 8.0 assists(which Lebron hasn't done) in 88-89. So I think you have to go with Jordan in this comparison.
Jordan was a prick to his teammates and cared only about winning. http://books.google.com/books?id=ZU7w5B0aQ1gC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=flaming [expletive]+jordan&source=bl&ots=XKPBs2oay6&sig=RAe0ECaFeO6WWu89p9HzIE3jWg4&hl=en&ei=D4dzSv7SJ5PQtgP1x_ziCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=flaming%20***got%20jordan&f=false But he's still the GOAT.
Nice post. Yeah, it does seem like LeBron isn't quite matching the greatest NBA player of all time yet. But it's not like LeBron is so far back that he couldn't eventually overtake him. Especially when you consider that Jordan had 4 years of mileage in college too. It's not probable, but it's at least possible. LeBron seems to be on track for at least the Wilt/Magic/Bird/Russel level of greatness.
the thing that sets Jordan apart from everyone else is linked to the above ^, and unwavering desire to win at all costs - and the skill set to do it himself if needed.
I don't think you can compare raw scoring averages. The pace of games is quite different today from the second half of the '80s and Jordan also dominated the ball more. Jordan's usage rates for his first six seasons were: 29.8, 38.6, 38.3, 34.1, 32.1, 33.7 Jame's usage rates for his first six seasons were: 28.2, 29.7, 33.6, 31.0, 33.5, 33.8 Three of those seasons, they had similar usage rates, three of those seasons Jordan was significantly to much higher. Overall, Jordan took more of his team's shots in his first six seasons than James did. When you combine that with the pace differences, I think the scoring averages don't tell the story at all. This is very true, but bear in mind that Jordan started two years older than James. When you compare by age, you get: Age 21: 25.8 / 28.1 Age 22: 27.5 / 24.5 Age 23: 29.8 / 29.1 Age 24: 31.7 / 31.7 The splits are Jordan / James. There is no real difference between those sets of PERs. James was significantly better at 21, Jordan was significantly better by almost the same amount at 22, and they were almost identical at ages 23 and 24. I don't think James should be penalized for putting up PERs of 18.3 and 25.7 at ages when Jordan was playing for UNC. When pace, usage and age are factored into your analysis, they come out pretty equally in terms of production. I'd be willing to give Jordan the edge on defense, but not a large one considering that James has become a mainstream contender for Defensive Player of the Year. I'd agree Jordan has been a bit better, but they're extremely close overall.
you know where lebron got that chalk thing from? Jordan used to fuck with the announcers and clap chalk at them before games.
I'm sorry.... LeBron never had to deal with hand checking, the bad boy Detroit Pistons, or the Riley New York Knicks. The NBA is MUCH softer now, and LeBron is benefiting from it. I would LOVE to see LeBron drive into the lane and meet Bill Laimbeer or Charles Oakley.
I don't think that's true at all. The "Bad Boys" Pistons and Knicks under Pat Riley ushered in a new era of basketball, a more physical, clog-it-up style of defense. They were well-known for it because they were unique. Now, EVERY team plays that defense. Guard the paint, collapse on slashers and pound them. That's why slashers like McGrady, Kobe, Vince Carter, etc, got more jump-shot oriented as they got older...they couldn't take the pounding season after season as they aged. People talk about Wade's chances of breaking down because he attacks the hoop so relentlessly despite getting pounded. Defense was a lot less contact-oriented through the '80s, and a lot less about rotations and keeping a guy around the hoop. Jordan often got to the hoop by beating one guy, his man, off the dribble. These days, you essentially have to go past or through several defenders to dunk or lay it up. The Pistons instituted the "Jordan rules"...now every team uses the "Jordan rules." Make sure the elite slasher has to go through several guys, put him on his ass, make him shoot free throws. Fans complain every game how their team is getting mugged by the opposing team and not getting calls: blame it on Pat Riley and his Knicks. He famously said, "If you foul every time down, the refs can't call them all." He was right and teams took that lesson to heart, which has led to near-constant contact on defense.
Excellent post by Minstrel as usual, I agree with your analysis and use of statistics in the comparison. They're very close. When you read this article by Hollinger, you see that only LeBron is close to having a PER that compares to Jordan's top seasons: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090324 In any case, I think that LeBron will find it easier to "Jedi Jordan" transition his game as he gets older and looses a step athletically. Maybe he'll have Jordan-esqe levels of BB IQ and Competitive Fire, but I doubt it. I give him the opportunity to age gracefully though, because when he's 33 he may no longer be a fast and giant SF, but a PF who is still faster than his peers. Because of his height (and I know that he's played some 4 before, even 5 for the national team), size and strength, he can be a matchup nightmare for someone, for years. Without considering the possibilities of injuries, when LeBron is done in the league, there will be a strong debate over the GOAT. LeBron has done more at a younger age, without his "Scottie" (although his teammates aren't bad by any means, just no other HOF'er in their prime).
At least we can agree they're both waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Kobe the anal-rapist will ever be.
"You must spread around reputation more before giving it to AmirIcon again." I litteraly LMAO'd when I read that.
That's interesting. Lebron's 1st year PER was equivalent to a bust center coming off of MF. Hmmm. Maybe Oden will be alright after all. Note for the stupid: I am not saying Oden will be as good as LeBron.
Really good point. I remember some criticism in LeBron's first year that he was overrated--a guy who would be good, but never the dominant player he was hyped up to be in high school. A lot of people said Carmello Anthony would be remembered as the best player from that draft. Sometimes a player is like an onion, with greater layers unraveling at every stage (Chris Paul). Sometimes a player is like pie, shallow on the surface, deeper underneath, and then surprising you with a new level of shallowness underneath that (Zach Randolph). And some guys are parfait, tasty at every level if you just take the time to notice. That's LeBron James and, to a lesser degree, Greg Oden. Everybody likes parfait. With apologies to Shrek and Doctor Horrible.
You're calling Oden soft, like a parfait? It's because of people like you that he lost some of his enjoyment of basketball.
