Pacers @ Warriors, 11/29, 7:30pm

<div class="quote_poster">jason voorhees Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If the ball in either of their hands with ten seconds left, it should be an AUTOMATIC timeout!!!

Give it to Monta. He wins games.</div>

Please...

 

<div class="quote_poster">ryanfish Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I think everyone needs to relax a bit. Sure, Baron took way too many 3s and looked like he was lazy on the court at times last season-but that was last season. This year, I think he's realized the error of his ways. He's drastically cut down the number of 3s he's taking and doing a much better job of getting to the rim. This year he's also toughened up and started playing even though he's not completely healthy. He played 35 minutes last night with bruised ribs. Maybe healthy Baron would have gone to the hoop but after playing and getting hit for a full game he may not have had the explosiveness to get by tinsley and elevate with enough power to finish inside. He is the leader and he should be the one taking the last shot. You can say that if he's not healthy, he shouldn't have been in the game but that's not his fault as no player will ever take themselves out at the end of the game.

I'm as excited about Ellis as anyone else but with the game on the line I want the ball in Davis' hands every time.

Bottom line is that we shouldn't panic yet. We're still above .500 and aside from the Laker game and the loss in Utah, We hav had a chance to win every game. I think that is a remarkable improvement. The last 13 games we've faced teams like Dallas, SA, Utah, Phoenix, NO, and even Sacramento without being blown out once! With last year's team at least 5 of those games would have been over by the middle of the 3rd quarter.</div>

You summed it up nicely.

You other guys are over analyzing things a bit.

 

dammit, this sure looked familiar, just like our loss against the suns. most of our losses were very close except the jazz one, i guess thats a good thing?

 

<div class="quote_poster">ryanfish Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm as excited about Ellis as anyone else but with the game on the line I want the ball in Davis' hands every time.</div>

I agree wholeheartedly. He is no doubt the leader and the best player on the floor (for either team).

 

We don't really have a true go-to player IMO. Baron always tries to do this one-on-one crap followed by a low % shot even if the defense isn't that tight on him and he doesn't look to pass or have someone set him up. It's tough when there were so many injuries. And the biggest inside threat and the biggest outside threat are either turnover prone or low %, and all pretty mediocre to bad free throw shooters. Ouch!

Also, why did almost none of our guards get to the line last night? Who knows, we might have put more pressure on their defense if we got to the foul line like they did. Don't settle for jumpers and for goodness sakes make free throws!

 

<div class="quote_poster">ryanfish Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm as excited about Ellis as anyone else but with the game on the line I want the ball in Davis' hands every time.</div>

Davis still needs to prove himself to Warriors fans. Even NO fans were glad when he left. He's still a trade for an expiring contract.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Run BJM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">

I also totally agree with Ryanfish, Warrior fans seem to spaz out over every win and loss. If we win without Baron all of a sudden Baorn should be traded, if we win without J-Rich, JR should be traded since we "don't need him". If we lose its always Baron, Dun, or Murphy's fault. The only thing Warrior fans agree on is that its NEVER Ellis' or Biedrins fault that we lose, even if they perform poorly (that was sarcasm, btw ). Its really tiring to keep reading the same crap regurgitated after every loss, does it always have to be one players fault that we lost a game? Is it not possible to just admit that our team lost the game?</div>

Wow... I couldn't have said it better myself. I still remember the buzzer beating lay up Baron had against Bowen 2 years ago

 

I guess I have to disagree with just about all of you, but I feel much more comfortable with Monta having the ball in clutch end-of-game situations than Baron. Baron shoots fadeaways where Monta takes it to the rim (and even when Baron does get to the rim, I see him leave way to many of those layup bouncing around the rim and falling out). It's not a black and white situation; certainly, Monta will still make some turnovers, and certainly Baron has has some huge, game-winning shots for us. But I still trust Monta more with that shot. He's Baron's equal when it comes to "having ice water in the veins", he's a better shooter than Baron (on 2s and 3s), and a bit better freethrower as well. Even if Baron absolutely must have the ball I'd rather see everyone cut to the rim and have him hit those cutters than have him slowly back down an opponent on isolation and take that telegraphed fadeaway.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Run BJM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Baron is a go-to player down the stretch, he does generally shoot low % shots but usually when he can on a buzzer beater he'll attack the rim hard unless the defender is sagging off extremely far. I'd trust him more than Ellis because he won't mis-handle the ball, or turn it over and hes got alot more experience, can create for others, and is a better finisher. Baron has hit alot of clutch shots for us, he made 2 of 3 clutch shots last night and he was the best player on our team throughout the whole game and it definitely wasn't his fault we lost.

I also totally agree with Ryanfish, Warrior fans seem to spaz out over every win and loss. If we win without Baron all of a sudden Baorn should be traded, if we win without J-Rich, JR should be traded since we "don't need him". If we lose its always Baron, Dun, or Murphy's fault. The only thing Warrior fans agree on is that its NEVER Ellis' or Biedrins fault that we lose, even if they perform poorly (that was sarcasm, btw ). Its really tiring to keep reading the same crap regurgitated after every loss, does it always have to be one player's fault that we lost a game? Is it not possible to just admit that our team lost the game?</div>

True with Baron, but it's a flip of the coin with him. He's going to take some insanely difficult shots during times when we just need to score. Forget the style. Try to run something rather than try to do the Baron Davis show. He's like Steve Francis sometimes. He could probably do more making other guys better as a pure point and putting them in a high % scoring situation. It's like Jrich's buzzer beater against Minny. Nick Van Exel fooled everyone into thinking he's going to take the last shot, and he dumps it outside to Jrich for the clutch three. Baron wouldn't do that. He'd hog it all the way and come up with nothing, when there's two guys wide open in the corner or the top of the key because he just made the D collapse on him.

I'm not complaining too much because who outside of Baron Davis is a veteran all-star and closest to being called a franchise player?

 

<div class="quote_poster">HiRez Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I guess I have to disagree with just about all of you, but I feel much more comfortable with Monta having the ball in clutch end-of-game situations than Baron. Baron shoots fadeaways where Monta takes it to the rim (and even when Baron does get to the rim, I see him leave way to many of those layup bouncing around the rim and falling out). It's not a black and white situation; certainly, Monta will still make some turnovers, and certainly Baron has has some huge, game-winning shots for us. But I still trust Monta more with that shot. He's Baron's equal when it comes to "having ice water in the veins", he's a better shooter than Baron (on 2s and 3s), and a bit better freethrower as well. Even if Baron absolutely must have the ball I'd rather see everyone cut to the rim and have him hit those cutters than have him slowly back down an opponent on isolation and take that telegraphed fadeaway.</div>

I kind of agree with that HiRez. When I watch Baron Davis play in the clutch, he plays it so selfishly IMO. Unless, the guy is Kobe Bryant, Sam Cassell or T-mac with high% clutchness, give up the rock! Too much one on-on-one stuff and he forces up something awful jumping off one foot falling backwards. The guy ain't Steve Nash when it comes to shooting those. He really should set somebody up if he can just find people.

 

Baron Davis' bad shots come when no one else is moving. You can't just blame Baron for his shot selection, even if his MO is poor shot selection.

The last game against the Pacers where he chucked up a fadeaway from the free throw line was a culmination of many things, including him taking a poor shot. But, he is undeniably the go-to-guy. Monta is a close second (until Richardon comes back full strength).

Don't forget, Monta's assist to turnover ratio is pretty horrible @ 4:3 (approx).

Ask yourself this, would you rather have Monta commit a turnover or Baron take a shot?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Kensaku Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Ask yourself this, would you rather have Monta commit a turnover or Baron take a shot?</div>Point taken, but I would quibble at your false choice, as it implies it's just as likely Monta will turn the ball over as it is Baron will take a shot.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Kensaku Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Baron Davis' bad shots come when no one else is moving. You can't just blame Baron for his shot selection, even if his MO is poor shot selection.

The last game against the Pacers where he chucked up a fadeaway from the free throw line was a culmination of many things, including him taking a poor shot. But, he is undeniably the go-to-guy. Monta is a close second (until Richardon comes back full strength).

Don't forget, Monta's assist to turnover ratio is pretty horrible @ 4:3 (approx).

Ask yourself this, would you rather have Monta commit a turnover or Baron take a shot?</div>

Maybe Baron Davis needs to call some plays or actually pass in those situations so people will get open for him. Most of the time people clear out for him on isos and they don't get the passes even when they are open. Could be Baron doesn't trust anyone yet in the clutch.

 

Baron is the best overall player on the team. He's also the best player with the ball in his hands.

Monta does, for now, come in second. IMO the thing with Monta is that he was unguardable in highschool. He had never met a defender he couldn't make look silly. His first wave of success in the NBA, he was a sleeper. Now that he's dropping 30 points on teams and flirting with triple-doubles, they are doubling him on his drive and forcing him to pass more often. He often gets caught in the air with no place to go. Good thing he can hang there an extra 5 seconds, but as we've seen that doesn't always work. Unfortunately, right now, Ellis isn't used to altering his intentions and instead delivering good set-up passes because he's never had to. When he sees the rim, it's green light all the way. His entry passes are pretty poor, too. Rarely does he use a bounce pass, which 90% or more of those should be. He tries to float them over the top, and they often get tipped.

With that said, dude, I have no doubt Monta will make adjustments. He and Beans have shown a dramatic improvement and I attribute it to being willing to learn. They are both very coachable, from what I understand. You know Keith Smart and other coaches are working with Monta to make better passes, and IMO it's only a matter of time before we see that. I don't know if he can ever be a true point guard, per say, but I have little doubt that he'll improve his passing to the point where he becomes a dual-threat in that regard. When that happens, look out.

As of right now, Monta is a phenomenal, lightning-fast scorer but he isn't prepared to make adjustments yet. NBA defenders will immediately pick out your weakness (or perhaps the least of your strengths) and try to exploit it. In Baron's case, it's probably himself. A defender can only hope that Baron doesn't punish them and instead opts out with a jumper. For Monta, though, most defenders probably now know going in that he can elevate over almost anyone and score with ease, so they clog the middle and probably look to force a pass. Once he can do that, drop quick bounce-passes or zing crisp dishes to open big men, defenders will have to honor that and lay off a bit. Then the lane will open up again. The better passer you are, the easier it is for you to score, and IMO with Monta it's only a matter of time until those turnovers go down and those assists go up.

 

<div class="quote_poster">HiRez Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Point taken, but I would quibble at your false choice, as it implies it's just as likely Monta will turn the ball over as it is Baron will take a shot.</div>

There are too many variables involved, but typically a turnover is worse than a missed, bad shot. I'd venture to say half the time turnovers involve the other team getting an easy fast break point and a turnover means terminating any chance of an offensive rebound or teammates getting a headstart on getting back on D.

 

<div class="quote_poster">AlleyOop Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Baron is the best overall player on the team. He's also the best player with the ball in his hands.

Monta does, for now, come in second. IMO the thing with Monta is that he was unguardable in highschool. He had never met a defender he couldn't make look silly. His first wave of success in the NBA, he was a sleeper. Now that he's dropping 30 points on teams and flirting with triple-doubles, they are doubling him on his drive and forcing him to pass more often. He often gets caught in the air with no place to go. Good thing he can hang there an extra 5 seconds, but as we've seen that doesn't always work. Unfortunately, right now, Ellis isn't used to altering his intentions and instead delivering good set-up passes because he's never had to. When he sees the rim, it's green light all the way. His entry passes are pretty poor, too. Rarely does he use a bounce pass, which 90% or more of those should be. He tries to float them over the top, and they often get tipped.

With that said, dude, I have no doubt Monta will make adjustments. He and Beans have shown a dramatic improvement and I attribute it to being willing to learn. They are both very coachable, from what I understand. You know Keith Smart and other coaches are working with Monta to make better passes, and IMO it's only a matter of time before we see that. I don't know if he can ever be a true point guard, per say, but I have little doubt that he'll improve his passing to the point where he becomes a dual-threat in that regard. When that happens, look out.</div>

Very well put. Monta is only 21! He'll be a great player if he keeps it up. Not only is he a great player, I understand he's a great person too. He seems very humble and has a willingness to learn (as does the whole team). Credit Nelson and the coaching staff.

It is also undeniable that Nelson's presence is what is making all of this magic happen with the young players.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">As of right now, Monta is a phenomenal, lightning-fast scorer but he isn't prepared to make adjustments yet. NBA defenders will immediately pick out your weakness (or perhaps the least of your strengths) and try to exploit it. In Baron's case, it's probably himself. A defender can only hope that Baron doesn't punish them and instead opts out with a jumper. For Monta, though, most defenders probably now know going in that he can elevate over almost anyone and score with ease, so they clog the middle and probably look to force a pass. Once he can do that, drop quick bounce-passes or zing crisp dishes to open big men, defenders will have to honor that and lay of a bit. Then the lane will open up again. The better passer you are, the easier it is for you to score.</div>

Agreed. Everybody in the NBA can play and Monta isn't use to that yet. As the season goes on, and presuming he will remain healthy, he will be a much better player than he is now at the end of the season. Very exciting.

As for Baron, you have to consider how much time is on the clock and where he is given the ball in the half-court set. The fadeaway at the free throw line I referred to earlier was a result of A) him receiving the ball on the perimeter and none of his teammates doing anything.

I forget how much time was left, but if he gets the ball on the wing about 10-12 feet away from the basket, and the rest of the team is spaced appropriately, he can initiate his post-up, draw defense, and kick it out for more options. Monta can't do that yet. I don't know if he'll ever be as strong as Baron to become that type of post-up guard.

 

I agree with everyone here that we don't have many options as of now. Our attacks and final plays of the game will be guard-based attacks where they want our guards to shoot off the dribble or from outside. Most of our starting and 4th quarter guys are still young, inexperienced, and Baron, the injured Jrich, are the only go-to players with experience. Dunleavy/Murphy = inconsistent and not really go-to players, but they can be setup and made to score high % shots if they can pick their spots where they know they will be ahead of time when the point guard dishes it. Then, I don't mind if the point guard has to shoot it if the defense breaks it up or there's no time to run something else. In ideal play execution, there is always another guy who is going to get open if the pass can't be delivered. In a 24 second shotclock it's very possible to execute something good or decent if they work at it because the defense will react and it will give us a little more space on the floor to operate if there are several options to go to on that play. Some role playing shooter, let's say the very limited Derek Fisher, would be money for us compared to a single guy trying to do too much by himself on isolations. That style of play just sucks the momentum we have unless we're talking dominant isolation play which can be counted on almost every single time down the stretch. With Baron a career sub 40's high 30's % guy, I don't trust him much compared to other guards in the league. On this team, it's arguable. It's a team effort in order to win since Baron is a high volume shooting, low % franchise point guard whose best attribute is his ballhandling and passing. So he needs to do those things he is best known for, not shoot it all the time. Take Jason Kidd for instance. Low % guy, triple double threat, that makes his teammates better and in a position to win the game.