<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jul 30 2008, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jul 30 2008, 09:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jul 30 2008, 09:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jul 30 2008, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He is a good complimentary player on KG's team. Good for him. Back when the Celts were his team, he got completely owned by Jason Kidd. I didn't hear him running his mouth then.</div> Pierce was at a major disadvantage as he had to make up for Shimmy Boy. KG is the overrated complimentary piece, not Pierce. </div> MVP voters disagree. Without KG, the real reason the Celtics won the title - Tom Thibodeau - would have been just another guy on the bench wincing at each terrible decision by Doc Rivers. </div> The same MVP voters that gifted Nash two undeserved MVP awards. Yeah, that says so much. </div> Agree with that, but how many votes did Pierce get? That's because of the second part of that post.
But people had a problem with Marbury saying he was the best PG in the league. I guess that's what winning a championship does. Ainge when from moron to genius. Doc went from a terrible coach to the best in the league. And now Pierce is the best player in the world (even though he isn't the best on his team).
Yea, but Pierce was huge in the Finals and played better than the player that a good portion of people claim is the greatest player right now. Pierce obviously isn't the most talented player (Kobe, Lebron, Dwight, Chris Paul), and I guess the title of best player in the world isn't fitting. But I can see him getting the title of the player who played the best on the NBA's biggest stage, in 2008. Ie. the Finals MVP. So basically he played well when it counted the most.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. J @ Jul 30 2008, 10:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But people had a problem with Marbury saying he was the best PG in the league. I guess that's what winning a championship does. Ainge when from moron to genius. Doc went from a terrible coach to the best in the league. And now Pierce is the best player in the world (even though he isn't the best on his team).</div> -They only people calling Ainge a moron were morons themselves. -Doc was frustrating at times, but you can't call him a terrible coach considering that a staff of the greatest coaches ever could have only improved those teams 5 games max. -Pierce is nowhere near the best player in the world, and he never was.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ Jul 31 2008, 12:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>-They only people defending Ainge were morons themselves.</div> Fixed Ainge was and is a moron. Two gift trades only makes him a lucky moron.
I really don't feel like explaining to you how incredibly horrible the roster that Ainge inherited was. Please go look at it. He very successfully turned a roster full of overpaid useless veterans into a roster full of young players with upside and inflated trade value. He was in talks for every major star that hit the trade market, but was patient enough to wait for the right ones.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ Jul 31 2008, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I really don't feel like explaining to you how incredibly horrible the roster that Ainge inherited was. Please go look at it. He very successfully turned a roster full of overpaid useless veterans into a roster full of young players with upside and inflated trade value. He was in talks for every major star that hit the trade market, but was patient enough to wait for the right ones.</div> I really don't feel like going through all of his draft mistakes and horrible roster moves. He got lucky with Al Jefferson, otherwise, the roster had minimal value. Being in talks for every major star is GM-speak for desperately trying to make a deal. Zeke too was in talks for every major star that hit the trade market and plenty more that weren't on the market.
If Kobe had Radmanovic guarding him the entire game he would have averaged 150ppg. And without KG the Celtics dont even make the playoffs... Pierce is in my top 25 just like Billups and even parker ( They all won finals MVP, doesnt mean they are the best players in the world.)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrandKenyon6 @ Jul 31 2008, 02:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>KG is undoubtedly the over-rated complementary piece.</div> Based on what? The Celtics undoubtedly sucked until they learned to play defense.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jul 31 2008, 02:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrandKenyon6 @ Jul 31 2008, 02:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>KG is undoubtedly the over-rated complementary piece.</div> Based on what? The Celtics undoubtedly sucked <span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%">until they learned to play defense.</span> </div> Kevin Garnett.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jul 31 2008, 03:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrandKenyon6 @ Jul 31 2008, 02:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>KG is undoubtedly the over-rated complementary piece.</div> Based on what? The Celtics undoubtedly sucked until they learned to play defense. </div> Posey came to the Celtics at the same time KG did. Who's to say he didn't help their defense as well? Why is it just KG's defense that is being noticed?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jul 30 2008, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ Jul 31 2008, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I really don't feel like explaining to you how incredibly horrible the roster that Ainge inherited was. Please go look at it. He very successfully turned a roster full of overpaid useless veterans into a roster full of young players with upside and inflated trade value. He was in talks for every major star that hit the trade market, but was patient enough to wait for the right ones.</div> I really don't feel like going through all of his draft mistakes and horrible roster moves. He got lucky with Al Jefferson, otherwise, the roster had minimal value. </div> Draft mistakes? Solid picks: Al Jefferson, Rajon Rondo, Delonte West, Kendrick Perkins, Ryan Gomes, Leon Powe Decent picks: Tony Allen, Glen Davis, Justin Reed Busts: Marcus Banks, Gerald Green All of these picks were made with late first round and second round picks. His draft record is better than any other GM that hasn't had a lottery pick. Sure the Telfair trade was dumb on draft day, but in return he traded a 3 yr commitment to LaFrentz for 2 yrs of Ratliff, which was key in landing Garnett. But in your logic, when you hate a guy, a good pick is "luck" and 2 bad picks out of 11 is a ton of draft mistakes. He has done dumb stuff, sure, but he's been an above average GM. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Being in talks for every major star is GM-speak for desperately trying to make a deal. Zeke too was in talks for every major star that hit the trade market and plenty more that weren't on the market.</div> Wrong again. Ainge had the package to get the Iversons of the world when they were available. Zeke did not. Zeke was exactly as you describe, Ainge was not. The Celtics could have gotten any of the major stars that have been traded in the past 3 years for the Jefferson package. But Ainge wasn't willing to part with those players unless what he got was well worth it. He showed a lot of patience waiting for the right deal, all the while having to listen to people (like you) bash him for no other reason than they don't particularly like him.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Jul 31 2008, 08:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jul 31 2008, 03:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrandKenyon6 @ Jul 31 2008, 02:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>KG is undoubtedly the over-rated complementary piece.</div> Based on what? The Celtics undoubtedly sucked until they learned to play defense. </div> Posey came to the Celtics at the same time KG did. Who's to say he didn't help their defense as well? Why is it just KG's defense that is being noticed? </div> Posey's help on defense was significant. KG is the superstar, so the camera and commentators are always on him. KG deserves credit, but not all of it. How many times did we see Bill Russell and KG loving on each other during the season?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ Jul 31 2008, 10:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jul 30 2008, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ Jul 31 2008, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I really don't feel like explaining to you how incredibly horrible the roster that Ainge inherited was. Please go look at it. He very successfully turned a roster full of overpaid useless veterans into a roster full of young players with upside and inflated trade value. He was in talks for every major star that hit the trade market, but was patient enough to wait for the right ones.</div> I really don't feel like going through all of his draft mistakes and horrible roster moves. He got lucky with Al Jefferson, otherwise, the roster had minimal value. </div> Draft mistakes? Solid picks: Al Jefferson, Rajon Rondo, Delonte West, Kendrick Perkins, Ryan Gomes, Leon Powe Decent picks: Tony Allen, Glen Davis, Justin Reed Busts: Marcus Banks, Gerald Green All of these picks were made with late first round and second round picks. His draft record is better than any other GM that hasn't had a lottery pick. Sure the Telfair trade was dumb on draft day, but in return he traded a 3 yr commitment to LaFrentz for 2 yrs of Ratliff, which was key in landing Garnett. But in your logic, when you hate a guy, a good pick is "luck" and 2 bad picks out of 11 is a ton of draft mistakes. He has done dumb stuff, sure, but he's been an above average GM. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Being in talks for every major star is GM-speak for desperately trying to make a deal. Zeke too was in talks for every major star that hit the trade market and plenty more that weren't on the market.</div> Wrong again. Ainge had the package to get the Iversons of the world when they were available. Zeke did not. Zeke was exactly as you describe, Ainge was not. The Celtics could have gotten any of the major stars that have been traded in the past 3 years for the Jefferson package. But Ainge wasn't willing to part with those players unless what he got was well worth it. He showed a lot of patience waiting for the right deal, all the while having to listen to people (like you) bash him for no other reason than they don't particularly like him. </div> Like I said, I don't have the time to go through all of his many, many mistakes, so I'll list a few. Ainge traded for LaFrentz in the first place Ainge turned down a trade from Houston during the 2005 Draft for their 2005 and 2006 First round picks to take Gerald Green Ainge had made a promise to draft Monta Ellis and backed out of it Ainge made the moronic trade for Wally Al Jefferson was the only player on the roster that was valuable in a major trade and no, the Celtics could not have gotten any of the major stars with that package. McHale had turned down better packages in the past. It is hilarious for you to say that I don't like Ainge, because that is completely false. He was one of my favorite players after the Tree Rollins incident. I have no bias against him. He is simply an incompetent GM that got lucky after his first few directions didn't work.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ Jul 31 2008, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jul 30 2008, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ Jul 31 2008, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I really don't feel like explaining to you how incredibly horrible the roster that Ainge inherited was. Please go look at it. He very successfully turned a roster full of overpaid useless veterans into a roster full of young players with upside and inflated trade value. He was in talks for every major star that hit the trade market, but was patient enough to wait for the right ones.</div> I really don't feel like going through all of his draft mistakes and horrible roster moves. He got lucky with Al Jefferson, otherwise, the roster had minimal value. </div> Draft mistakes? Solid picks: Al Jefferson, Rajon Rondo, Delonte West, Kendrick Perkins, Ryan Gomes, Leon Powe Decent picks: Tony Allen, Glen Davis, Justin Reed Busts: Marcus Banks, Gerald Green All of these picks were made with late first round and second round picks. His draft record is better than any other GM that hasn't had a lottery pick. Sure the Telfair trade was dumb on draft day, but in return he traded a 3 yr commitment to LaFrentz for 2 yrs of Ratliff, which was key in landing Garnett. But in your logic, when you hate a guy, a good pick is "luck" and 2 bad picks out of 11 is a ton of draft mistakes. He has done dumb stuff, sure, but he's been an above average GM. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Being in talks for every major star is GM-speak for desperately trying to make a deal. Zeke too was in talks for every major star that hit the trade market and plenty more that weren't on the market.</div> Wrong again. Ainge had the package to get the Iversons of the world when they were available. Zeke did not. Zeke was exactly as you describe, Ainge was not. The Celtics could have gotten any of the major stars that have been traded in the past 3 years for the Jefferson package. But Ainge wasn't willing to part with those players unless what he got was well worth it. He showed a lot of patience waiting for the right deal, all the while having to listen to people (like you) bash him for no other reason than they don't particularly like him. </div> I would say its a little early to call Green a bust. He is 22. Had he gone to college for 4 years, this would be his first year in the league. Im not saying hes great or even that I like him but he does have a lot of talent and he will definitely get better.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jul 31 2008, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ Jul 31 2008, 10:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jul 30 2008, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ Jul 31 2008, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I really don't feel like explaining to you how incredibly horrible the roster that Ainge inherited was. Please go look at it. He very successfully turned a roster full of overpaid useless veterans into a roster full of young players with upside and inflated trade value. He was in talks for every major star that hit the trade market, but was patient enough to wait for the right ones.</div> I really don't feel like going through all of his draft mistakes and horrible roster moves. He got lucky with Al Jefferson, otherwise, the roster had minimal value. </div> Draft mistakes? Solid picks: Al Jefferson, Rajon Rondo, Delonte West, Kendrick Perkins, Ryan Gomes, Leon Powe Decent picks: Tony Allen, Glen Davis, Justin Reed Busts: Marcus Banks, Gerald Green All of these picks were made with late first round and second round picks. His draft record is better than any other GM that hasn't had a lottery pick. Sure the Telfair trade was dumb on draft day, but in return he traded a 3 yr commitment to LaFrentz for 2 yrs of Ratliff, which was key in landing Garnett. But in your logic, when you hate a guy, a good pick is "luck" and 2 bad picks out of 11 is a ton of draft mistakes. He has done dumb stuff, sure, but he's been an above average GM. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Being in talks for every major star is GM-speak for desperately trying to make a deal. Zeke too was in talks for every major star that hit the trade market and plenty more that weren't on the market.</div> Wrong again. Ainge had the package to get the Iversons of the world when they were available. Zeke did not. Zeke was exactly as you describe, Ainge was not. The Celtics could have gotten any of the major stars that have been traded in the past 3 years for the Jefferson package. But Ainge wasn't willing to part with those players unless what he got was well worth it. He showed a lot of patience waiting for the right deal, all the while having to listen to people (like you) bash him for no other reason than they don't particularly like him. </div> Like I said, I don't have the time to go through all of his many, many mistakes, so I'll list a few. Ainge traded for LaFrentz in the first place</div> This says more about Antoine's trade value. That trade was fine in my book because Walker was a black hole and LaFrentz fit nicely into the offense when he was healthy. He also got a first round draft pick in the deal. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Ainge turned down a trade from Houston during the 2005 Draft for their 2005 and 2006 First round picks to take Gerald Green</div>This is not true. It is mere speculation. Ainge gets rock hard for first round draft picks and wouldn't have turned it down. Gerald Green was not somebody on his radar, but he was almost forced to pick him that late in the draft. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Ainge had made a promise to draft Monta Ellis and backed out of it</div>This may be true, but Green was supposed to go top 5 and slid all the way down to 18. In hindsight, this looks bad, but every team on the board passed on Ellis, as well. To me, you have to credit Ainge for recognizing the talent in Ellis and making a promise to draft him at 18, when other GMs viewed him as a mid 2nd rounder. Ainge selecting Green was an impulse pick where Danny wasn't really relying on his own judgment. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Ainge made the moronic trade for Wally</div>Moronic? He traded away Blount's horrible contract, a 12th man, and Ricky Davis for Wally, a 12th man, an expiring contract and a 1st round pick. What is moronic about that? Mark Blount is garbage, and Ainge should have never signed him in the first place. Getting rid of him was worth more than anything in the deal. And Ricky for Wally was a wash. Had Wally never got injured, he would have been a better fit on the team, especially considering how much of a negative effect Davis had in the locker room and with the younger players. The key here is the first round pick, which puts a W in Ainge's column for the trade. The pick was later used in the Garnett deal and Wally was later used in the Allen deal. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Al Jefferson was the only player on the roster that was valuable in a major trade and no, the Celtics could not have gotten any of the major stars with that package. McHale had turned down better packages in the past.</div>Al Jefferson was the only player good enough to be the centerpiece in a deal, not the only one of value. Take a look at what it took for teams to land some of the bigger stars that have gone on the market. Al Jefferson is, or at least will be, the best player a team recieved in return for an aging star. The league was also very high on Gerald Green at the time thanks to the way the Celtics were handling him. Also, what better offers did McHale receive? I don't remember any. Maybe you read something on ESPN and confused it for fact. Seems like you do that a lot. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>It is hilarious for you to say that I don't like Ainge, because that is completely false. He was one of my favorite players after the Tree Rollins incident. I have no bias against him. He is simply an incompetent GM that got lucky after his first few directions didn't work.</div>You have me fooled, then. Because it certainly seems to me that you have something against him. Either that, or you have a tendency to downplay positives and exaggerate negatives, which I think is also the case. Ainge had to walk a fine line in Boston with fans and owners who wanted to see a team on the court competing. They don't stand for rebuilding teams in Boston these days, and at times, this had Ainge making some moves that went against what always was his plan. Ainge said from the beginning that his plan was to revamp the roster through the draft, and he did. He had to rebuild but remain competitive at the same time, which is very difficult to do, but he pulled it off. There were moves along the way that were pretty confusing, but there has been speculation that the ownership was forcing him to keep enough veterans on the team to remain a playoff contender. There are only 2 ways to become a championship team these days. You have to get lucky and land a superstar like LeBron or Kobe in the draft, or you have to be in postion to pounce on the older superstars when they hit the market. Like it or not, Ainge put together some packages with players he acquired to land Ray Allen and KG in the same year, all the while retaining Paul Pierce. If Danny was so incompetent, he wouldn't have been in the position to pull that off. You're expectations of a GM are unrealistic if you deny him any credit for what he has done.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thrilla @ Jul 31 2008, 01:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This says more about Antoine's trade value. That trade was fine in my book because Walker was a black hole and LaFrentz fit nicely into the offense when he was healthy. He also got a first round draft pick in the deal.</div> It was a horrible trade because of LaFrentz's contract. Sure he should have gotten rid of Shimmy Boy, but that was a horrible contract to take back and it made the team worse. It also required Ainge to give away talent later on to fix this mistake. A constant theme for his GM-ship. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>This is not true. It is mere speculation. Ainge gets rock hard for first round draft picks and wouldn't have turned it down. Gerald Green was not somebody on his radar, but he was almost forced to pick him that late in the draft.</div> It is hilarious that you are using speculation to declare it as speculation <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>This may be true, but Green was supposed to go top 5 and slid all the way down to 18. In hindsight, this looks bad, but every team on the board passed on Ellis, as well. To me, you have to credit Ainge for recognizing the talent in Ellis and making a promise to draft him at 18, when other GMs viewed him as a mid 2nd rounder. Ainge selecting Green was an impulse pick where Danny wasn't really relying on his own judgment.</div> When push came to shove, Ainge made a huge mistake <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Moronic? He traded away Blount's horrible contract, a 12th man, and Ricky Davis for Wally, a 12th man, an expiring contract and a 1st round pick. What is moronic about that? Mark Blount is garbage, and Ainge should have never signed him in the first place. Getting rid of him was worth more than anything in the deal. And Ricky for Wally was a wash. Had Wally never got injured, he would have been a better fit on the team, especially considering how much of a negative effect Davis had in the locker room and with the younger players. The key here is the first round pick, which puts a W in Ainge's column for the trade. The pick was later used in the Garnett deal and Wally was later used in the Allen deal.</div> No, the key is the contract he gave Blount. Once again, a horrible decision by him has to be corrected down the road with another mistake filled trade <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Al Jefferson was the only player good enough to be the centerpiece in a deal, not the only one of value. Take a look at what it took for teams to land some of the bigger stars that have gone on the market. Al Jefferson is, or at least will be, the best player a team recieved in return for an aging star.</div> Nice way of saying either the Celtics overpaid or they had such crap on their roster that they had to give up Al Jefferson. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The league was also very high on Gerald Green at the time thanks to the way the Celtics were handling him.</div> No, no they weren't. Most had written him off. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Also, what better offers did McHale receive? I don't remember any.</div> Not my problem that you don't remember them. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Maybe you read something on ESPN and confused it for fact. Seems like you do that a lot.</div> You really need to quit being so clueless and tossing out baseless accusations.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gobillsdeep @ Jul 31 2008, 01:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I would say its a little early to call Green a bust. He is 22. Had he gone to college for 4 years, this would be his first year in the league. Im not saying hes great or even that I like him but he does have a lot of talent and he will definitely get better.</div> Green fully earned his bust tag. It appears to be the only thing he worked hard at during his career.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Jul 31 2008, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Jul 31 2008, 03:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrandKenyon6 @ Jul 31 2008, 02:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>KG is undoubtedly the over-rated complementary piece.</div> Based on what? The Celtics undoubtedly sucked until they learned to play defense. </div> Posey came to the Celtics at the same time KG did. Who's to say he didn't help their defense as well? Why is it just KG's defense that is being noticed? </div> Because KG is the one the defense was designed around, and his constant, intense commitment to it dragged everyone else along. Have you ever seen a team more committed to team defense than the Celtics were last year? That's not because of Paul Pierce or Ray Allen or even James Posey. It was because of KG. Thibodeau can design the greatest defensive schemes in NBA history, but they won't work without the talent and the buy in. KG got him both.
