<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Not a fan of Phil</div>Here's a interesting question? When you think about it do fan's really consider themselves a fan of a coach? Yes they give the coach the credit and respect they deserve for leading he or he's favorite team to a title but when's the last time you saw a Fan walking down the street with one of those suit jackets all the other coaches wear all the time on the sidelines with Jackson, Riley or whatever the coaches last name is on the back of it? It's not going to happen. Anyway on to the topic... Why don't you look at the team's he coached? Before Phil Jackson took over as the Bulls Head Coach they were pretty much a basic team that would do ok but miss the playoffs and when he got there they won 6 championships lead by Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. Los Angles was the same way. Sure they had Shaq and Kobe and sure that team was doing good but they couldn't reach the NBA finals. Here comes Phil and they win 3 straight. Isn't that enough proof to show he's a good coach? I sure think so.
yeah some people say hes lucky. But show me an other coach that can control all these allstars into winning champion shipsJordan pippenrodmenGrantNot easy for an AVG coach to keep control ofSAme thing with kobe and shaqI also wanna agree with Dagameplayer
Bottom Line: Lakers are widely considered one of the NBA's best teams, yet fail to make the Finals and get swept in numerous series.Phil Jackson comes in, and not only do they win a title, but the Lakers win 67 games.Yes Phil has had talent, but let's not kid ourselves. All teams that win have talent. There has never been a Championship Winning Squad that hasn't had its arsenal of overall talent or individual talent. Larry Brown has had talent, Rudy T has had talent, and slap yourself if you think Red Auerback didn't have talent. All these guys had the tools around them, so stop hating because they cashed in their talent and got some gold.
Also People doubted this season that Phil jackson could take the lakers to the playoffs. The team was devoid of any talent. We were one rebound away from the second series. I think this season may have shut up everyone. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Phil Jackson is the GOAT of all coaches.</div>I was thinking you would say Pat riley
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dagameplayer @ Sep 14 2006, 05:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Anyway on to the topic... Why don't you look at the team's he coached? Before Phil Jackson took over as the Bulls Head Coach they were pretty much a basic team that would do ok but miss the playoffs and when he got there they won 6 championships lead by Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. Los Angles was the same way. Sure they had Shaq and Kobe and sure that team was doing good but they couldn't reach the NBA finals. Here comes Phil and they win 3 straight. Isn't that enough proof to show he's a good coach? I sure think so.</div>Miss the playoffs? They always reached the playoffs, but never got close enough to the NBA championships. Jeez! Do some history, man. No offense, of course. I just had to correct you there. When was a season they didn't reach the playoffs? Maybe they had one. I'm too lazy to check, but still... They always made the playoffs, lost in either the semifinals or Eastern Conference Finals. They made it to the NBA Finals, but didn't win. Overall, you're post is lame because you claimed that Phil took them to the playoffs. He took them to the championship, but they had always been in the playoffs.
Cmon guys, really. Did Jordan ever win without Phil? No. Could Kobe and Shaq translate their talent into rings before Phil? No. He's had great players, but he's got them to play to their full potential, something no other coach could do for them. This past season with the Lakers has done it for me, he's the GOAT. Some of the lineups he put in had everyone stunned. There was a stretch of 6 or so games where he played Luke Walton, Laron Profit, Smush Parker, Brian Cook, and Kwame Brown. And they were just killing teams. They worked together amazingly, only Phil could've seen that.
Ok Illosophee I was wrong about that. I wasn't much of a fan back in the 80's anyway because I was to busy being a little kid but it's ok If Im wrong cause I just took a guess. Anyway All I'm saying is yes a player can have talent but sometimes a player can have talent but not know how to use his talent until the right coach comes along and shows that player how to use his talent the right way to get the team to work better together. Watch a movie called "Coach Carter" and that will explain what I mean.
I have read some of the posts and I really think that everyone brings up good points. I give Phil credit for implementing with the triangle offense. That is pretty much what I respect most about him. He IS a good X's and O's coach. However...........In order to consider Phil the greatest of all time you will have to ask yourself one question. Say the Bulls didnt get Phil Jackson and instead landed a coach like Pat Riley (or another really good coach at the time Phil came into the picture). Do you think that those teams would not have been as successful. To be honest, I believe a coach such as Pat Riley would have been AS successful as Phil if not DARN close. Some say that MJ and Pippen didnt win until Phil got there. Well you also have to look at the time Phil arrived. MJ had just entered the TRUE prime of his carreer and Pippen had not yet entered his. The talent surrounding them was HORRIBLE. The bulls picked up some help and Phil was the final piece. I believe that MJ and Pippen (not Phil) for the most part were responsible for getting the most out of the average players. MJ was the king of making average players look like all stars. Landing them big contracts when they left Chicago (Longley, Harper etc.). Basically the puzzle was taken out of the box and Phil's job was to put it together. The difference between Phil's puzzle and everyone else's was that everyone else's puzzle was missing pieces. The Bulls started their rise before Phil got there in 1987 when they drafted Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant, also the year they achieved the best record in the teams history. Then followed it up the next year by aquiring Craig Hodges and Bill Cartwright. This team ended up in the eastern conference finals only to lose to the eventual champion Detroit Pistons.I give Phil credit for the titles won in Chicago. But I really cant say that he truely earned my full respect until he went to the Lakers. Phil figured out that he had to get Kobe and Shaq on the same page by trying to find some common ground between them. Jordan and Pippen were best of friends, so he never had this problem in Chicago. After trying a few ideas he finally found what they had in common. They were both winners. But again, the team was on the rise and had been a conference finals contender for 4 years before Phil even arrived. The roster itself improved the year Phil got there by adding much needed veterans such as A.C. Green, Ron Harper, Brian Shaw and John Salley.I could really keep going but it would get boring and a lot of people would get very defensive and more than likely stage a war against me.My whole point is to stop and really look at all of the points and do a little research before you are ready to simply HAND the GOAT label to Phil Jackson. Now, assuming that we are talking about greatest BASKETBALL coaches of all time, my list goes:John WoodenRedPhil.Just my opinion.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Becar @ Sep 18 2006, 09:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I have read some of the posts and I really think that everyone brings up good points. I give Phil credit for comming up with the triangle offense. That is pretty much what I respect most about him. He IS a good X's and O's coach. However...........</div>I like your post but I havew to correct you. Tex Winter came up with the triangle Offense! Phil just let him implement it! He isn't the X and O's coach everyone thinks. He's like Bill Gates- he used other peoples ideas and implemented them to make him look great.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Becar @ Sep 17 2006, 09:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I have read some of the posts and I really think that everyone brings up good points. I give Phil credit for comming up with the triangle offense. That is pretty much what I respect most about him. He IS a good X's and O's coach. However...........In order to consider Phil the greatest of all time you will have to ask yourself one question. Say the Bulls didnt get Phil Jackson and instead landed a coach like Pat Riley (or another really good coach at the time Phil came into the picture). Do you think that those teams would not have been as successful. To be honest, I believe a coach such as Pat Riley would have been AS successful as Phil if not DARN close. Some say that MJ and Pippen didnt win until Phil got there. Well you also have to look at the time Phil arrived. MJ had just entered the TRUE prime of his carreer and Pippen had not yet entered his. The talent surrounding them was HORRIBLE. The bulls picked up some help and Phil was the final piece. I believe that MJ and Pippen (not Phil) for the most part were responsible for getting the most out of the average players. MJ was the king of making average players look like all stars. Landing them big contracts when they left Chicago (Longley, Harper etc.). Basically the puzzle was taken out of the box and Phil's job was to put it together. The difference between Phil's puzzle and everyone else's was that everyone else's puzzle was missing pieces. The Bulls started their rise before Phil got there in 1987 when they drafted Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant, also the year they achieved the best record in the teams history. Then followed it up the next year by aquiring Craig Hodges and Bill Cartwright. This team ended up in the eastern conference finals only to lose to the eventual champion Detroit Pistons.I give Phil credit for the titles won in Chicago. But I really cant say that he truely earned my full respect until he went to the Lakers. Phil figured out that he had to get Kobe and Shaq on the same page by trying to find some common ground between them. Jordan and Pippen were best of friends, so he never had this problem in Chicago. After trying a few ideas he finally found what they had in common. They were both winners. But again, the team was on the rise and had been a conference finals contender for 4 years before Phil even arrived. The roster itself improved the year Phil got there by adding much needed veterans such as A.C. Green, Ron Harper, Brian Shaw and John Salley.I could really keep going but it would get boring and a lot of people would get very defensive and more than likely stage a war against me.My whole point is to stop and really look at all of the points and do a little research before you are ready to simply HAND the GOAT label to Phil Jackson. Now, assuming that we are talking about greatest BASKETBALL coaches of all time, my list goes:John WoodenRedPhil.Just my opinion.</div>Great post, Welcome to the forum.However, I agree with Clangus. Tex Winter is the man responsible for the Triangle offense.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BALLAHOLLIC @ Sep 20 2006, 03:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Great post, Welcome to the forum.However, I agree with Clangus. Tex Winter is the man responsible for the Triangle offense.</div>Blah. Tex winter doesn't have the charisma or the experience of coaching to get players working. Phil jackson can get players who hate eachother to work on the basketball court. Phil isn't all about the triangle. Infact, we beat the spurs in 2004 because Phil realised that abandoning the triangle was better. Phil's mindgames, adjustments and charisma were not taught to him by Tex. Tex didn't get the lakers to hold the suns to 3 straight under 100 point games. It's true Tex did create the triple post offense but phil jackson has also added his own things into the system.People will hate. And becar I'll respond to your post later.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>In order to consider Phil the greatest of all time you will have to ask yourself one question. Say the Bulls didnt get Phil Jackson and instead landed a coach like Pat Riley (or another really good coach at the time Phil came into the picture). Do you think that those teams would not have been as successful. To be honest, I believe a coach such as Pat Riley would have been AS successful as Phil if not DARN close</div>I don't believe another coach could've been as succesful as Phil Jackson. Phil jackson's offense got players into positions where they were most lethal at. The triangle offense is so unpredicatable that when learned properly there is no offense that can top it. He moved pippen in the triangle to a guard position where he was most lethal at. There is no other coach who's offensive system is/was more dominant then Phil and triple post offense. Infact Pat riley couldn't touch Phil in the X and O's department. The guy's offensive system was so symplistic when he was with the lakers. In the open court it was Showtime, there were no set plays. In the halfcourt the point was to get the ball to Kareem for him to sky hook or for James worth to score. He doesn't touch Phil in that department. What Pat riley has on Phil is motivating his team. His probably the best at that. But he definently couldn't do what phil did. Larry brown would do a way better job then Riley because he in my mind is the best X and O's coach of all time. Larry however lacks the flexbility and the human aspect of coaching to better then Phil. That is why I think Phil is the best Nba coach of all time, he has the pefect balance of Knowledge, flexibility and the human aspect of coaching.MJ had just entered the TRUE prime of his carreer and Pippen had not yet entered his. The talent surrounding them was HORRIBLE. The bulls picked up some help and Phil was the final piece. I believe that MJ and Pippen (not Phil) for the most part were responsible for getting the most out of the average players. MJ was the king of making average players look like all starsI agree, the talent for the most part was horrible. However to say it was Pip/MJ that made the average players looks good and not phil's offense is highlight ignorant. The triange offense puts players in positions were they are most lethal. Every cut, every screen, every ball reversal is so that someone gets an open shot. Obviously Pip and MJ helped because they were tools used to help. The attracted defenses which made it easier for other players to cut and get themselves open. The triangle's whole objective is to get an open good looking shot. That's what the triangle brought and MJ/PIP were just tools. You don't give the bricks money for making a building. You give the bricklayer the money. Not the best of analogies but it's the best I could come up withI give Phil credit for the titles won in Chicago. But I really cant say that he truely earned my full respect until he went to the Lakers. Phil figured out that he had to get Kobe and Shaq on the same page by trying to find some common ground between them. Jordan and Pippen were best of friends, so he never had this problem in Chicago. After trying a few ideas he finally found what they had in common. They were both winners. But again, the team was on the rise and had been a conference finals contender for 4 years before Phil even arrived. The roster itself improved the year Phil got there by adding much needed veterans such as A.C. Green, Ron Harper, Brian Shaw and John Salley.Phil had problems in Chicago. He was the source of the book "The jordan rules" where MJ was shown to be selfish and arrogant. Phil was continunally having fights with the Organisation. MJ was being told by another assistant to abandon the triangle and this caused turmoil. He had to keep Dennis rodman in check. He obviously didn't have his superstars at odds with eachother but it was definently wasn't a good envioronement. And that's where I think Phil's true greateness comes out. Despite the fact that All his teams have had inhouse problems his brought them to success. The lakers had the talent before phil arrived but there was no proper team structure. Phil motivated shaq to play defense and got kobe to play the iniator and be more team orienated. Those role players helped but the fact is that the triangle made sure Shaq got the ball in the most lethal position. And if he was doubled there was enough space so the ball could be reversed and shaq could further intrench himself in the post. When excuted properly there is no offense that can touch it. There is a reason why MJ said he wouldn't play if Phil jackson wasn't resigned. He knew he was most effective individually and his team benifted from his play more in the triangle. Phil jackson may not be the best in even one category. But his ability to perfectly balance every category in my mind has been unmatched. Riley lacked the X and O's. Larry brown lacked the motivation and human aspect of coaching.It's like MJ, he's the not he best scorer of all time, or best rebounder or best passer or best leader. Why is he considered the best? Because he had everything balanced out.edit: Clangus, Phil has proven he can win without the triangle. The lakers were losing against the spurs in 04. Phil abandons the triangle and we win. It's a small sample piece but you get the drift. Also in early 2003-2004 the lakers were not running the triangle exclusively. We started 18-3. If you can find me another coach who can completely change his offensive system and still win then call me. I haven't found one.
Great post Melo.Like I said, I wasnt saying that Phil wasnt the greatest. I did in my OPINION, but not factually. I think you can make a very good case for Phil agaisnt Red, as you just did. But I still believe that John Wooden is the CLEAR-CUT best coach to ever coach the game of basketball. I was only arguing against Phil because I think people were too fast to hand him the GOAT title. Not because I nessecarily disagree. However, there IS one point I will make in regards to your post. If there was ever a coach that had the toughest challenge of keeping his players in check when it seemed like nobody else could, that coach is Chuck Daley (Rodman, Laimbeer, Mahorn). You are correct when you say that the best coach of all time must be balanced in all area's. This is the reason why John Wooden is highly regarded as the best coach of all time. Especially among us basketball coaches. I know the title of this topic is "phil jackson" but im going to make a quick synopsis of Wooden.Motivating players- Best coach of all time in this area. I am sorry I can not state examples. But I have read some of his books (7 to be exact) within the past year and a half. And there is no question in my mind that he is unmatched in this area.Personal Aspect of Coaching- Wooden. John Wooden states in his book that he really never yelled at a player or emburassed him in practice for a mistake. He ONLY, very few times, yelled at a player durring practice for lack of effort. However, this did not happen very often as Wooden is the greatest all time at motivating his players. Wooden believed, and I believe this to be true as well, that yelling at a player in front of other players only made him feel emburassed, which would take his mind off of what they were trying to accomplish, and in turn, would not be fully focused, which resulted in an unsuccessful practice (everyones mind must be in the same place in order to work as a team).Also, they were in Alabama once and the team was walking down the street. Some ignorant jackass looked at Kareem and said to his friend "Look at this (expletive) gorilla!". His friend replied ( please forgive me ) "That is one big nigger!!". Kareem had to hold Wooden back from trying to beat their ass. Coaching the Game the Way it Should be Played- Wooden takes the cake here again. He coached that effort was the most important key in winning. Name any other skill and talent in the game of basketball, and it would be useless without effort. Do me a favor, if you ever meet John Wooden in person, ask him this question, "What is your ALL-TIME starting five?". He will do one of two things, he will either not respond to the question as to not offend any of his "sons" (players), or, he will name a list of 5 guys that you probably have never heard of before. In his one book, he actually names his all-time starting 5. I was expecting to hear Kareem, Walton etc. etc. Instead I found myself reading a list of guys I have never heard of. His reason behind this list is because these guys were the players that understood, in order to have great success, giving 100% EVERY minute of EVERY practice was VITAL.I can go on here and infuse all his books together to create my own Wooden biography, but that would take 3-400 pages. So I wil spare you guys. But one thing really stuck out in my mind. On the bulliten board in the locker room at UCLA, many things were put up and taken down throughout the years. Stat sheets, news articles, scouting reports, etc. But there are two things that stayed up there for his entire tenure at UCLA. (and YES, I memorized them)How to be a champion by Grantland Rice.You wonder how they do it,You look to see the knack,You watch the foot in action,Or the shoulder or the back.But when you spot the answerWhere the higher glamours lurk,You'll find in moving higherUp the laurel-covered spire,That most of it is practice,And the rest of it is work.And John Woodens coaching method1. Be a teacher. Follow the laws of learning. Explanation and demomnstration, imitation, criticism of the imitation, repitition until habit is formed.2. Use lectures, photographs, movies, diagrams, mimeographed material, etc.., to supplement you daily practices.3. Insist on punctuality and proper dress for practice.4. Insist on strict attention.5. Permit no horse pla. Practice is preparation.6. Show patience.7. Give new things early in the practice period and then repeat daily until learned.8. Avoid harsh, public criticism. Use praise as well as censure.9. Encourage teamwork and unselfishness.10. Do considerable individual coaching of individuals.11. Use small, carefully organized groups.12. Have a definite practice plan-- and follow it.If there is a better way to coach a team. Let me know.
Great post. I had no clue about John woodens coaching and the guy does seem like a legend. He seems like a nice guy with good coaching methods. I needed to clarify my original post. When I said "Best coach ever" the actual meaning was "Best Nba coach of all time". I'll be researching up on Wooden.
