Pietrus Wants To Stay With Golden State

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AlleyOop:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, IMO, I have to say you'd be delusional to blindly "trust" that Mullin has "thought of everything."



Hmm. Well, IMO, by claiming that you're willing to simply trust that Mullin had "thought through everything," you're not encouraging objectivity. You see, you're already approaching the issue with a pre-determined notion of General Managers, Mullin, and the notion of rationale itself.

Being objective, IMO, is being willing to stay open to the realms of possibility, that -- even though he gets paid millions to do it -- perhaps Mullin did "miss something" in his evaluation. Perhaps, not.

Of course, we're human, and thus incabable of being purely objective; the fact that we're alive means we bring pre-concieved notions and experieneces with us into any given thought process, whether we intend to or not.

But, I digress. By saying something like "I don't know what Mullin's reasons were, but trust me, he thought of everything," doesn't, IMO take into account the objective facts before us. Rather, you simply assume that there are good reasons why Dunleavy is getting paid alot of money right now. I guess that's easier, but it's still not satisfying.</div>
Maybe I'm misreading this, but you're starting to sound again like you're equating my belief that Mullin has thought of all the RATIONAL pros and cons of resigning Dunleavy with my blind trust that his decision was the correct one. If I'm reading it wrong, that's my fault and I'm sorry. But if I'm reading right, I have to tell you again that it's not the case.

I don't think there's a single person on this board who thought, based on what WE KNOW, Mullin made the correct decision in resigning Dunleavy in '05 instead of waiting to '06. Where we differ, and this is the only point, is that I look at the contract extension and think, "Well, it's Mullin's job to consider all these points. These are all pretty basic points, so he must have considered them. So there must be something that I'm not aware of that is the reason Mullin made the decision to resign Dunleavy in '05, given that all the public info available pointed to waiting until '06 as the clear best course of action."

You're unwilling to take that leap of faith, and that's fine too.

Now I'm not always going to disagree with you on this point. When it comes to things like whehter Mullin has considered the 15 team 47 player deal that JoeBobWarriorFan_79 came up with one day on realgm's trade cheacker...then yeah, I'll agree with you that Mullin probably didn't consider the likelihood of that scenario playing out.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post">How can you put Dunleavy and his career numbers with other SFs who make that much? I'd take Butler, Prince, Battier or even Kevin Korver and his relatively cheap contract over Dunleavy or Pietrus. Almost every team has a better starting SF than our combo. The only team that has a weaker one is Portland with Miles and Khrypa.

Maybe you still like Dunleavy, but I've given him enough chances to make good. The only thing is Mike is BYC so we're stuck with him whether we like it or not. Hopefully, he'll do what Mullin thinks he can do at 15-6-6. Heck, I'll take 12-5-5. I mean I'll still root for him and not boo him unless he continues to throw up bricks like this past season. Next season, Dun will have to put up or else we're stuck with another untradeable. Meaning he'll have to pass up the 3-ball, drive to the basket, get to the line, make his FTs, rebound and make plays when he gets the ball in his hands. Even the most hard core Dunleavy fans will have to admit that. A guy with his size and skills should be dominating and being aggressive at the SF position.</div>
Ok, let me turn the tables on you. Give me your objective reasons why Dunleavy isn't worth 45 mil over 5 years when these other guys get 47 mil. It can't be from their stats, the numbers are nearly identical. So what is it that makes you think this way.

My guess is that you dislike Dunleavy and aren't objectively looking at his play compared to these other guys. If you have watched them all, give me examples of their play where you think they're better than Dunleavy.

btw Kwan, that's friggin' hilarious and I'm definitely #9.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Kwan1031:</div><div class="quote_post">So, why did Mullin sign Dunleavy that early? It really is simple, because Mullin really likes Dunleavy and he sees himself from Dunleavy. I tried to come up with other logical reasons, but at the end, this seems to be the only answer.</div>

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/5517/mulleavy8va.jpg">

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<div class="quote_poster">Quoting wtwalker77:</div><div class="quote_post">When it comes to things like whehter Mullin has considered the 15 team 47 player deal that JoeBobWarriorFan_79 came up with one day on realgm's trade cheacker...then yeah, I'll agree with you that Mullin probably didn't consider the likelihood of that scenario playing out.</div>

Well, no, of course not, I just used this extreme example to exaggerate the idea that no one is capable of "thinking through everything."

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting wtwalker77:</div><div class="quote_post">Where we differ, and this is the only point, is that I look at the contract extension and think, "Well, it's Mullin's job to consider all these points. These are all pretty basic points, so he must have considered them. So there must be something that I'm not aware of that is the reason Mullin made the decision to resign Dunleavy in '05, given that all the public info available pointed to waiting until '06 as the clear best course of action."</div>

I do see your point, and I don't think we necessarily differ here -- I agree Mullin must have had some reason for signing Dunleavy -- I'm sure he didn't just pull the guy's name out of the hat.

But what was that reason?

Is it possible that Mullin didn't think through everything with a rational approach? Remember, he didn't go to school to become a GM -- he was a terrific basketball player but has no prior GM experience with contracts, salaries, roster concepts, market values, etc.

Isn't it possible that Mullin didn't methodically think through every rational scenario completely, and that perhaps he made this decision from a "gut instinct" or an "emotional" perspective?

I'm not saying it's wrong -- intuition is a good thing -- I'm just asking if it's possible?

(and no, not mathematically possible -- just, is it in the realm of reasonable possibility? Or, because he's an NBA GM, does it automatically qualify that he "thought through everything?")

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting wtwalker77:</div><div class="quote_post">Ok, let me turn the tables on you. Give me your objective reasons why Dunleavy isn't worth 45 mil over 5 years when these other guys get 47 mil. It can't be from their stats, the numbers are nearly identical. So what is it that makes you think this way.

My guess is that you dislike Dunleavy and aren't objectively looking at his play compared to these other guys. If you have watched them all, give me examples of their play where you think they're better than Dunleavy.</div>

It's not just stats. Dun should be improving and not going backwards like this season. Maybe it was getting the big contract just like it was being picked #3 overall in the draft. But we shouldn't be making excuses. What it should boil down to is talent and production.

Now, I think Dun has talent and said so. Just like Mullin and this board has said, Dun should be passing up 3s, taking it to the hoop, getting to the line and making FTs. He shouldn't be so passive and be more aggressive. Yet that's not the way he's been playing and he's hasn't been consistent so he hasn't been helping the team.

I mean he's had some excellent games such as Cleveland and Dallas (?) where he was doing that and being aggressive. Other times, Dun had his best stretch of games when he was showcasing himself in a possible trade to Indiana.

But for whatever reason, he's keeps going back to his lesser aggressive role. It's like he is Jekyll and Hyde. Look at CR2's sig. That's Dunleavy's Hyde side. Again, for a man 6-9 and with his game, he should be dominating the opposition. I'll be ecstatic at 15-6-6, but will settle for 12-5-5 if you want to argue stats. To do that Dun will have to work on upgrading other facets of his game. Do you agree with that? Else you have to admit, he's not worth his contract.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post">I mean he's had some excellent games such as Cleveland and Dallas (?) where he was doing that and being aggressive. Other times, Dun had his best stretch of games when he was showcasing himself in a possible trade to Indiana.

But for whatever reason, he's keeps going back to his lesser aggressive role. It's like he is Jekyll and Hyde. Look at CR2's sig. That's Dunleavy's Hyde </div>

Indeed -- Dunleavy has had some very impressive outings -- I've been impressed the last quarter of the season with his aggressiveness going to the hole. But he has failed to play consistenly. Moreover, during those "flashes of brilliance," he's done things he never did in his first years: drive strong to the hoop, try to finish strong (i.e. attempted dunks over people -- he never had even 1 of those his first few years that I can remember), play actual SF/PF defense and body-up on people, and be vocal.

Maybe Mullin foresaw that Dunleavy would blossom into these traits; maybe Dunleavy was doing things in practice that we couldn't dream of; but based on his on-court production at the time, Dunleavy did very little to give any GM reason to sign him long-term. Thus I conclude that it's possible Mullin didn't rationalize the decision fully, but rather made the move from an emotional perspective.

It may end up being a brilliant move, and I hope so -- this may sound strange but I actually like rooting for Dunleavy; he plays smart and I want to see him do well. However, based solely on the objective facts at the time of the signing, I'd have to conclude that Mullin was acting with blurred vision.

 

Do you guys remember that pre-season game against Phoenix where Dunleavy's touch was incredible? Mullin mentioned in a KNBR interview that he looked like that all offseason. It was dumb of Mully to pay him before he did it when it counted. No matter how you look at it though.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AlleyOop:</div><div class="quote_post">True, we're all fans that are emotional about the team, and I agree that we get a very limited, filtered perception of what is really going on in the GS headquarters. You think you hear about a Jermaine O'Neal trade and then all of a sudden Baron Davis is a Warrior.

No doubt, we all speculate about decisions involving the Warriors.

I'm not talking about second-guessing past decisions, however. I'm not saying using hindsight to say "Oh, the GM should have done this, should have done that."

I'm saying that, during the time when Dunleavy's contract was an issue, it appeared that every possible influencing factor in the equation weighed on the side of not issuing him a contract. I know I was adamant about it at that time.

Of course, I'm sure Mullin had legitamate reasons for offering such a blockbuster deal to such an under-achieving player.

What I'm not willing to concede is that Mullin "thought of everything," as if he had weighed every possibility and thought it through.

Even Kasparov doesn't see 20 moves deep into every line of every variation. Why? He's human. He can't.

What I'm saying is that it is possible for you, me, or anyone else, to think of something in regards to the Warriors that Chris Mullin and his band of staff members has never thought of.

I'm not second guessing or lashing out emotionally.

In my personal opinion, at that time I was firmly arguing that Dunleavy should not get a contract. Let him take a 1 year tender. Let his agent make threats. Let him walk. Hell, let him blow up into an All Star and go somewhere else. There was just no way he deserved a fat contract.

Yet, he got one. I'd like to know why. Care to explain?</div>

Actually,Kasperov and most of the top Grandmasters know a dozen openings,and their main variations 20-30 moves deep. Some variants are named for whoever first had some success with it..and it branches off at move 22 with a set up and a combination that takes 6 more moves. Kasperov has seen it,has used it,knows it like an old freind

In "Modern Chess Openings" there are a lot of Bobby Fischer variations that kick in at least 20 moves in. Fischer knew the versions Nimzovich and Capablanca favored..he just came up with an improvement.

In the GM biz,a big deal is playing the percentages and having vision. The first time I saw Magic Johnson,he was a freshman,and I saw the second half of a game. For a week I told everyone I just saw one of the best yet,and that he'd take his team to the NCAA title. The next year there was a preseason game with US college stars vs the Russian national team,with a young Sabonis,a 7-4 C,and at lest 3 more 7 footers. The US team had Magic AND Bird,it likely was the only game they ever played as teammates,and their PASSING demolished the Russians. At that point it seemed quite obvious Magic would lead an NBA team to a title.. A year later,he did. That's vision on a basic level,Magic seemed obviously to be changing the whole game. What surprized me is that a lot of the experts didn't see it, thought of him as a PF with some tricks but not a real shooter,thought he was too big and slow for PG,too high risk. Fortunately,Magic had some smart coaches..so smart they just told everyone to keep moving and ALWAYS expect a pass...and then they shut the hell up and let the show go on with Magic creating

GM's think things through,as do coaches,but there's a skill in finding clues.in spotting the guy who is not obvious. There's a complexity not unlike a well played chess match where the true power of each piece ,each piosition in time and space is easy for a master to see,but not at all visible to the average player. Mully has vision,maybe not great vision,but pretty good. He does get attached I think,but then a team will thrive once its a unit and shuffling mercenaries in and out is not a unity enhancer.

I was sure that Dunleavy would NOT get over $7 mill per,and thought $5 was more in line with what I'd seen. Now I'd tend to say $5 mill would have been too much.

Pietrus is relatively early in the development process. Dun's dad was an NBA player,Dun went to Duke. Pietrus came from some island,played part time in the crazy world of Euroball,and got drafted. He showed us some excellent ball,in flashes. He,however,is not well suited to Montyball,with things slowing down,guys passing around the 3 arc until the D packs the middle. He's like a greyhound in a phonebooth. We run...Pietrus looks good. We turn all Fishy and all Mike Pete has is that corner 3.

 

I'm not so angry anymore about the Warriors because look at what Mullin is doing. He knows more than anybody that we lack inside presence, but we haven't been able to get the guys we want because of where our draft pick numbers fell and the money being available during a time where we had to keep Murphy/Richardson or lose everybody once again. Foyle signing was probably there to protect Murphy and Mullin wasn't willing to find or couldn't find alternatives, so he overpaid. D-Fish signing was to bring a credible vet to the program rather than some guy, so he overpaid. Murphy was a role player that put up huge numbers and was improving each and every year, so Mullin overpaid. Jason Richardson was our closest thing to a star, so Mullin overpaid, but little did he know Jrich actually played up to his contract, playing both a great half court and open court game. None of the other four Warriors really lived up to their contracts which is unfortunate because it means we have to rely on rookies to step up and they aren't living up to their draft statuses or they aren't ready.

Mullin probably realized that this young team needed to play together like a team by setting screens for one another, moving off the ball for the passer so that the passer can get a clear path to dump the ball and knows the area where to dump it to. He went out and got a coach that is an expert in motion offense and can turn programs around (keep in mind it takes at least four years for this to happen because changing player personnel can be gradual). Again I don't know if this really helped start the team in the right direction for the next few years and if the last two seasons are "growing pains", but one thing is evident: This team still has no fundamentals when it comes to teamwork, moving without the ball, making smart decisions, and finishing plays. There's no execution coming from five guys who've never seen the playoffs or played their positions like they are suppose to in a motion offense where inside-outside ball movement is required . Running teams never win games unless we're loaded like we were in Run TMC, like the Suns are now, and the former run n' gun Mavs. All those teams had all-star point guards that knew how to score and dish. We haven't had an all-star point in years until Baron came along... But he is no Nash nor is he Tim Hardaway. Those guys can run plays and shoot off the dribble if they are slowed down and can shoot free throws.

Okay, so then Mullin realizes this and he goes after Ike Diogu who brings together some things that you don't see in a Warriors typical power forward. He brings a strong post game with excellent footwork, he rebounds, he blocks shots, he boxes out, he does more than his stats indicate on both ends of the floor, and he's smart/aggressiveness enough to play any tempo of game. Really good motor like Foyle, but he's not raw, clumsy and clueless like Foyle is when it comes to court awareness or catching a pass for an easy score. Of course, like everybody else, Diogu needs to adjust to the NBA and playing an organized game unlike that of ASU where they just gave the ball to him and got the heck out of his way.

Monta Ellis and Taft are also some nice prospects because they too bring some things that we don't see very much in a Warriors guard or Warriors big man. Gilbert Arenas type dribble penetration, shot off the dribble with "The Glove" type defense and a big man that can move and push people around like Nene or Chris Wilcox or Amare Stoudamire.

So based on last year's draft I saw Mullin addressing a lot of the issues that the Warriors had without messing up continuity. We never had much chemistry so there's really no chemistry loss... I really don't like his team design he locked up in 2004, but I didn't expect him to turn around things in one offseason or two. It's just his signings really bite this club in the arse because now salaries are super inflated and are harder to trade... At least other teams are overpaying as well... Plus, we've got stability. Nobody is blowing up and demanding out. Guys with more skill like Rafer Alston or Ricky Davis would probably be a detriment to the team and to the coaching staff.

I guess the only single way Mullin could have improved this team was to get his signings to start winning and get a franchise player through the draft or at least what we thought was a franchise player at the time. We wanted Yao... couldn't get him. We wanted Mike Sweetney in 2003... couldn't get him... Finally Mullin takes over and he finds Biedrins at #11 who is a high risk, high potential sort of player, and he's going to take a while (that's the bottom line)... The presence of Dunleavy/Murphy probably prevented us from looking at Al Jefferson or Josh Smith or Dorrell Wright (super high risk high school phenoms)... The need for a post presence made us pass up on Gerald Green or Danny Granger (both those guys fell past many teams, a combo of injury problems and lack of immediate impact in the league). We shouldn't ever draft for need, but I guess Mullin felt strongly that Ike could be a star kind of like Zach Randolph and some of what Elton Brand was showing. A good big man is still better than most good swingmen in terms of impact because it gets higher % points, controls the tempo to a slower pace if needed, and interior defense is a huge deterrent to fast, weak-shooting teams.

I think in this league, we needed to have gotten an unselfish, superstar draft pick where other star free agents or vets say, "Hey, I would love to play with that kid." or we needed to have gotten a big man better than Murphy or Foyle. Also, the same could be said about a certain coaching style, but what coaches would play for our crap club? I sure as heck don't think any of the available coaches right now would get it done. Maybe Stan Van Gundy, but definitely not that Hornets/Cavaliers guy that got fired. I hope our coach would be something where Mullin gets along with him and they are on the same page with where they need to take this team in the direction towards. As long as Mullin and Monty know what's going on and aren't clueless, I think it's possible for them to get things done in four years if the right opportunities are available.

So as bad I dislike Mullin's decisions on certain guys, I'm sure it probably has more to do with luck and the fact we're going to be impatient and emotional when things don't work out like we want them to. I've taken my fair share of wrath on Dunleavy, Foyle, the coaches, but it's like... find some way to get it done. The draft picks we've gotten is a start, but now the pressure of an entire franchise is on them.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">
So as bad I dislike Mullin's decisions on certain guys, I'm sure it probably has more to do with luck and the fact we're going to be impatient and emotional when things don't work out like we want them to. I've taken my fair share of wrath on Dunleavy, Foyle, the coaches, but it's like... find some way to get it done. The draft picks we've gotten is a start, but now the pressure of an entire franchise is on them.</div>

I strongly disagree on that one. Choosing Foyle over Dampier or Thomas and Mohammad was a stretch at best at that time, and it turned out to be a bad choice. Thinking that Fisher would be a starting PG instead of Speedy was a bad logic at that time, and it continues to be a bad logic. Same goes with signing all rookies at their 3rd years, when no team in NBA ever lost a rookie, who is not a superstar, they wished to sign by waiting till their 4th year. While we lucked out with Richardson, Dunleavy one became a joke in NBA.

One thing Mullin did very well is drafting players such as Biedrins, Diogu, Ellis and hopefully Taft as well.

In order to be a bad luck, Mullin had to make moves with right logics at those times, and when it didn't exactly turn out right, we can argue that it was a bad luck. However, Mullin made number of questionable moves even when he made those moves, and most of them turned out to be horrible moves. That's not a bad luck, but bad logic giving a bad result.

Good news is that we still have some chips to play with for this offseason. I can only hope that we will get right players during this offseason. Because, if it's not, we may face years of dark ages due to horrendous contract situation...

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Kwan1031:</div><div class="quote_post">I strongly disagree on that one. Choosing Foyle over Dampier or Thomas and Mohammad was a stretch at best at that time, and it turned out to be a bad choice. Thinking that Fisher would be a starting PG instead of Speedy was a bad logic at that time, and it continues to be a bad logic. Same goes with signing all rookies at their 3rd years, when no team in NBA ever lost a rookie, who is not a superstar, they wished to sign by waiting till their 4th year. While we lucked out with Richardson, Dunleavy one became a joke in NBA.

One thing Mullin did very well is drafting players such as Biedrins, Diogu, Ellis and hopefully Taft as well.

In order to be a bad luck, Mullin had to make moves with right logics at those times, and when it didn't exactly turn out right, we can argue that it was a bad luck. However, Mullin made number of questionable moves even when he made those moves, and most of them turned out to be horrible moves. That's not a bad luck, but bad logic giving a bad result.

Good news is that we still have some chips to play with for this offseason. I can only hope that we will get right players during this offseason. Because, if it's not, we may face years of dark ages due to horrendous contract situation...</div>
I wasn't talking about Mullin's luck, I was talking about ours. We're so unlucky to have been absorbed by Warriors fandom to become so attached and we're so unlucky to have a GM decide to take two of the franchises most important position roles (center and point guard) and fill them with crap for five years. Our crap luck. But I'm not mad, that's just typical of the Warriors... Plus, history tends to repeat itself ever since Cohan became majority owner and they've never had good players, good general mangement, and good coaching all at the same time.

 

For us being unlucky, yeah. Can't disagree on that one. Well, it did take 30 years for Clippers to go past 1st round. Hopefully, we will have better luck...

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Kwan1031:</div><div class="quote_post">For us being unlucky, yeah. Can't disagree on that one. Well, it did take 30 years for Clippers to go past 1st round. Hopefully, we will have better luck...</div>

When we get some inside-outside play + defense I don't see any reason why we couldn't make it passed the first round when/if we get to the playoffs.

If you look at how the Clippers are constructed, I think it still has less to do with the coach and more about the reliable guys it has as veterans at all the positions. The GM actually got the right opportunity and made the most of it and got vet experience + the right talent that fits. Cuttino Mobley is a good player at the shooting guard position and is a terrific shooter. Plus, he's quick and not that bad on defense despite his smaller size (J-Rich is also close to 6'4"). Sam Cassell is a big combo guard and is not so quick, but he's got the smarts to run the offense, the size to back smaller guards down, and he's great at making contested shots (especially in clutch situations). So we know the backcourt can shoot and make their free throws and get inside some how and also pass.

Then the forward/center tandem is pretty darn solid when Brand gives you awesome MVP performance on both ends of the floor. Kaman is a bit raw, but provides size, athleticism, presence, and some good technical skills (he scores from either side of the post with either hand equally well). When the NBA lacks good centers, Kaman is considered a very good prospect IMO.

The Clips definitely outclass us, which was why I commented at the beginning of the season that they looked very good on paper. The Warriors however looked way too perimeter and too soft like the season before. And we definitely know Warriors play a lot different in the first half of the season than they do in the last half when they are out of playoff contention.

All the playoff teams have got at least one all-star on the outside and one on the inside... I'm not really seeing anything all-star with our big men except maybe Ike if he can repeat what he's shown against Sheed or some other top-notch defender. My money says that Ike will continue to adjust his game next season since NBA defenders will figure out how to play him eventually (The sophmore jinx). Still, I'd rather have Ike than another stiff who can't create his own shot or play physical.

 

I like Ike because of his influence on the rest of the team.

Let's take away "faces" from the players for a second, and look purely at the position:

Ideally, IMO at the PF spot you want a guy who is thick, big-boned, with a nose for rebounding and grabbing loose balls. YOu want a guy who hustles and is scrappy, always fighting for position, boxing out, and making life difficult for the opposing players. You want a guy who spends the majority of his time in the paint unless he is up top setting a pick 'n roll. Even then he's rolling back to the paint. You want a guy who has good hands, stong hands, who can secure the pass and finish. Good defense is nice but IMO good perimiter defense is more important to slow down the opposing guards and prevent easy penetration and subsequence collapsing.

So:

1.)Thick, sturdy

2.)Good rebounder and nose for loose balls

3.)Scrappy, energetic, boxes out

4.)Thrives in the paint, not the perimiter

5.)Good, strong hands to finish the drive n' dish

These are my ideal traits in a big man. I'm not asking for everything. I didn't mention dribbling, shooting, passing, IQ, defense.

A PF who plays like this influences the play of his teammates, because his energy is infectious, he affects the moral of the other team by bruising in the paint, he lifts the spirit and toughness of his team by showing them they have a guy they can lean on in the paint, and his activity forces the opposing bigs to stay occupied with him, thus making it easier for the guards to score.

Ike is all of this. Troy is not.

Troy hangs out on the perimeter, shooting jumpers or trying And-1 one-on-one moves. His rebounding numbers are good but frankly I'm not impressed -- he usually cleans up the loose ball because his teammates are already busy boxing out. Troy never boxes out. He doesn't put a body on his man. It's sad, especially for a guy who grabs 10 boards a game. This year he probably grabbed about 3-4 a game that were due to Ike boxing out and Ike's activity. Troy can barely get off the ground and is hardly a threat to finish in the paint. Further, he plays small, and doesn't bruise or bang in the paint. Therefore, his play often influences his teammates in a negative fashion, because he doesn't do the tough, energetic, disruptive things in the paint that a power forward like, oh, I dunno, Karl Malone, or Charles Barkley did. Don't get me wrong, a jumper is a nice addition to the repetoire obviously. But first and foremost, at the PF position you want strength, sturdiness, and activity.

Troy doesn't give us this. Ike has shown signs that he can improve and really do this for the Warriors.

I know I sound like a dreamer, but IMO if Beans can put on some real bulk and muscle, the Ike/Beans tandem could be a legitamate starting frontcourt for a Warriors playoff team.

That's why I think we need to find a way to trade Troy, Foyle and Fish, dammit! Gawd!

 

Yeah, I hope -- but I just have a feeling that, as long as he's a Warrior, Troy will be starting because of his fat contract. I'd take any player, pick, exemption, anything -- if a team would just take Foyle, Fisher, and Murphy off our hands for nothing. But that can't happen.

Mullin made some serious mistakes by giving Foyle and Fisher those fat contracts. I hope he doesn't compound those mistakes by insisting that his coach plays them. Even more, I hope he finds a way to move one if not all four of Murphy, Fisher, Foule, Dunleavy this summer. We'll see.

 

I don't believe the Warriors should be trying to trade Troy Murphy for nothing. Troy doesn't have a bad contract. He has an OK contract. It's difficult to compare his contract to many other players because there aren't very many players in the NBA that average a double-double and can shoot the ball like Murphy. Compared to players like Zach Randolph and Carlos Boozer, Murphy's contract is good. The one player whose contract will gain my attention on this topic is Drew Gooden's contract as he is a free agent this offseason possibly. I wonder by which other players people would consider Murphy's contract to be bad. Maybe against other players' rookie contracts. But there are players like LaFrentz with worse contracts and Gasol with much bigger contracts.

But with the play of Fisher this past season and the value of the MLE which is about what Fish has is kind of decreasing in terms of talent that is available for that much money, and since Fisher has only four seasons left on his contract compared to six years or five years just recently, I believe dealing Fisher will be easier.

Now Dunleavy's possible contract, and Foyle's contract are bad deals. The Warriors could afford dealing those two contracts for nothing.

 

I know, I'm being extreme, and obviously I'd want to get good value if we traded Murphy -- or anyone for that matter -- but my mindset is: Murphy's numbers are inflated and those traits that can't be measured with a finite number -- hustle, boxing out, bruising in the paint, defensive value, etc. -- Murph pretty much lacks in all those areas. But mostly, he takes minutes away from Ike, who I believe will be a more superior player. think about this:

<font size=""4"">Think about the difference betwen getting 14 pts 10 rebs from Troy Murphy to getting 14 pts and 10 rebs from Ike Diogu.</font>

They could get equal numbers but IMO Ike's 14 & 10 would be so much valuable. First of all because he'll put the other team in foul trouble. Sure Ike's got a sweet jumper, but make no mistake he does his dirty work in the paint, and he finishes And-ones like nobody's business. Unlike Murph he bangs and bruises for his points and this type of scoring is more valuable at the PF position. Further, The quality of rebounding between the two is significant, IMO. Murph gets alot of his boards off tipped balls (by his teammates) and loose collections. Ike gets alot of his boards by fighting for position and elevating above the opponents. He fights for his boards.

The difference is, often times Murphy grabs a rebound that the team probably would have collected nonetheless. Ike and Beans take rebounds away from other players and fights to gain the possession.

14 & 10 from Ike is a lot different than 14 & 10 from Troy, IMO.

I'm not all that impressed with Murph's 14 & 10.

I think Ike will be a much more valuable PF even if he gets identical numbers, simply because of the type of game he plays.

 

We all know Murphy's numbers are inflated, which is why he's our main trade bait. You're arguing that he should be traded cause we're not losing anything by replacing him with Diogu... which is true, but Mullin already knows that. You don't need to convince us here

 

That is if you believe Diogu can average 10 rebounds per game for a whole season. Also Diogu hasn't shown the ability to stay on the court. He suffers from what Pietrus and Biedrins have in committing many fouls. As for rebounding, there are many times where Diogu is just too short to grab the rebound. And for the worst rebounding team in the league, or so it seemed last season, I will take Murphy's concrete 10 boards per game. Having a Diogu/Foyle duo would kill the team on the boards. Both Diogu and Foyle are small.

Anyway, my thinking is that the combo of Murphy/Diogu at the PF position should be strong. Right now Murphy has a decent contract, Diogu still has three full seasons left on his contract and there is no need to hurry Murphy out of town because of Diogu.