<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Feb 20 2008, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>How about a 4-way trade, where we swing this cap space over to the Griz for the Miller, Lowry, Cardinal package they're offering Cleveland? I agree with Dumpy about the uncertainty of cap space and to a slightly lesser extent the value of Carter (especially on a team w/o Kidd), but I'd have a hard time being upset about moving him and taking on Cardinal's contract if the Nets came out with Miller and Lowry. caveat: I didn't look at the numbers at all to see if they match. I just saw that Memphis is taking crap for gold, and figured they're binging on cap space.</div> http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/trad...p;te=&cash=
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Feb 20 2008, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Here's another one. Hey, Carter has been terrible this year, right? How many NBA players are averaging 20.0 points, 42.5% shooting from the field, 4.5 rebounds, and 4.0 assists? Answer: SEVEN (Dirk, Caron, Manu, LeBron, Kobe, Pierce, and Vince). With 5.6 rebounds and 5.2 assists per game, Vince doesn't just make the cutoff, either. [Note, the shooting percentage limit just serves to eliminate Baron Davis from this group] Of those seven, Vince is roughly tied with LeBron for the best assist-to-turnover ratio. And this is a terrible year for him! He is hurt! Playing in an offense where he is not the primary focus! Does everyone forget just how valuable he is when healthy?</div> Most of the People on this board don't see that, they just see Vince as the cause for all this teams problems, it doesn't matter that he's playing hurt they just want him gone ASAP...funny thing is all the people that want hime gone can not come up with any FA's the Nets can or have a realistic of signing, I'm still waiting for someome to fill me in
If thorn feels the Nets can make the postseason this year... this deal doesnt make any sense. The better plan is to let carter build his stock up and dump him in the offseason. Besides, I'm curious to see how this new group meshes with one another.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Feb 20 2008, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>How about a 4-way trade, where we swing this cap space over to the Griz for the Miller, Lowry, Cardinal package they're offering Cleveland? I agree with Dumpy about the uncertainty of cap space and to a slightly lesser extent the value of Carter (especially on a team w/o Kidd), but I'd have a hard time being upset about moving him and taking on Cardinal's contract if the Nets came out with Miller and Lowry. caveat: I didn't look at the numbers at all to see if they match. I just saw that Memphis is taking crap for gold, and figured they're binging on cap space.</div> How does that make the Nets any better? Go from a lineup of Krstic/Boone/Jefferson/Carter/Kidd to: Krstic/Boone/Jefferson/Miller/Harris (AND Cardinals' contract). We would be in the lottery, but most likely not enough to suck bad enough to get a high enough pick that Thorn & Kiki don't screw up the selection. -Petey
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Feb 20 2008, 05:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Feb 20 2008, 04:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Plus, there's something you don't see in the statline: His level of effort, and his defense. Both have to come in question. I mean, some nights, you'll see him trying hard, and other nights, he'll just sit on the perimeter and watch until they give him the ball to throw up an ugly shot (which sucks for him. I actually feel bad that he has to deal with this offensively shitty team on some nights). While I wouldn't completely discount the fact that he has been injured, and have to give him some recognition for what he does on some nights, he's just not consistent. He doesn't give his all every night, and it gets annoying to see him throwing up bricks when he could be attacking. I just gotta say, he's not looking like a player who really deserved all of that 60 million. In my eyes, at least.</div> I can't disagree with that. My point (mostly) is that, coming off of last year, you can't really argue that he didn't deserve $13 million dollars THIS year. Last year, especially down the stretch, he was giving effort every night. Whether he doesn't have any incentive; he wasn't being pushed by Kidd; injured; distracted by something in his personal life; or some combination of them, this year is clearly different. It seemed like he was dogging it to start the season--remember RJ took some shots at him for "finally joining us in the season?"--but just when he was untracked, he got hurt, and I'm not surprised that the effects have lasted this long. However, a half-assed Vince is still a decent player. Part of the problem with the criticisms is that, had Vince not played for three weeks or a month until his ankle was better, he would have been criticised. He toughed it out the best he could, and his performance suffered (if you believe, as I do, that the injury was the sole cause of his poor play, which could easily be wrong). It seems to me that anyone who would have ripped him for not playing for a month has no right to rip him for playing poorly for the last month. However, he appears to be improving, and the week off can only have helped. If you compare his stats on zero days rest to his stats on one or more days rest, you see a trend--he is definitely better with at least one day off between games, which could suggest that the injury is a factor. Get this: Since January 1, in the second game of the seven back-to-backs, Vince is averaging just 16.7 points on 42% shooting . . . and he is just 6-20 TOTAL on three-pointers. [that inlcudes one 29-point game on 10-17 shooting]. However, when he has one or two days off, he has produced much better. Just check the game logs. six of his seven games of 25 or more points were with at least one day off. All ten of the games that he took at least 18 shots were with at least one day off. Hopefully, he is getting better. Let's see how he ends the season. </div> I'd say I believe the injury is affecting Vince - or at least I would really like to. Still, why the hell did we re-sign him if we knew he had an injury problem during the playoffs? Was the FO foolish enough to believe that a 30 year old player with injury problems the previous season would suddenly become completely healthy? I mean, we saw a similar thing with Jason Collins. He got injured one season, and we expected him to come back the next season all good and healthy, because of rest in the offseason. He comes back, and what happens? More injuries. Same thing happens the next season, and we're all in for disappointment. So you'd think, from the JC experience, we wouldn't go and re-sign a player with very recent injury problems to a really long contract, right? Nope. We give an injury-prone player, in Vince, a contract that he technically shouldn't ever get, because of his injury problems, he's an aging player, and he has little upside in the future. Add that to the fact that he's not exactly propelling us to wins, and that's why I'm pissed he has that contract, and that's why I believe he doesn't deserve it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAMES.SLIMM @ Feb 20 2008, 05:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Feb 20 2008, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Here's another one. Hey, Carter has been terrible this year, right? How many NBA players are averaging 20.0 points, 42.5% shooting from the field, 4.5 rebounds, and 4.0 assists? Answer: SEVEN (Dirk, Caron, Manu, LeBron, Kobe, Pierce, and Vince). With 5.6 rebounds and 5.2 assists per game, Vince doesn't just make the cutoff, either. [Note, the shooting percentage limit just serves to eliminate Baron Davis from this group] Of those seven, Vince is roughly tied with LeBron for the best assist-to-turnover ratio. And this is a terrible year for him! He is hurt! Playing in an offense where he is not the primary focus! Does everyone forget just how valuable he is when healthy?</div> Most of the People on this board don't see that, they just see Vince as the cause for all this teams problems, it doesn't matter that he's playing hurt they just want him gone ASAP...funny thing is all the people that want hime gone can not come up with any FA's the Nets can or have a realistic of signing, I'm still waiting for someome to fill me in </div> Not really in favor of moving him for the crap offered. Still hate what Kidd was traded for, should had let him expire than take back high Mavs picks. Though in a rebuild it's not always about FA. Look at the Raptors. Their players developed, bringing in pieces in trade and signing of lesser FA after shedding the contracts of Carter & Rose. Same time you risk a huge chance of just sitting in the 'crapper' for years before rebounding (Bulls). -Petey
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Feb 20 2008, 05:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Feb 20 2008, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>How about a 4-way trade, where we swing this cap space over to the Griz for the Miller, Lowry, Cardinal package they're offering Cleveland? I agree with Dumpy about the uncertainty of cap space and to a slightly lesser extent the value of Carter (especially on a team w/o Kidd), but I'd have a hard time being upset about moving him and taking on Cardinal's contract if the Nets came out with Miller and Lowry. caveat: I didn't look at the numbers at all to see if they match. I just saw that Memphis is taking crap for gold, and figured they're binging on cap space.</div> How does that make the Nets any better? Go from a lineup of Krstic/Boone/Jefferson/Carter/Kidd to: Krstic/Boone/Jefferson/Miller/Harris (AND Cardinals' contract). We would be in the lottery, but most likely not enough to suck bad enough to get a high enough pick that Thorn & Kiki don't screw up the selection. -Petey </div> It's a moot point now, but you don't go from a lineup with Kidd in it- Harris is already in the lineup- and you downgrade slightly from Carter to Miller, who's more clutch anyway, while upgrading the back-up point significantly. And unless you land Brand, it's as good as anything else you'd get with the money. It's not a miracle trade, but I'm still in favor of not blowing it up, and I still don't get the concept of trading for less value now in the hope that something comes along later.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Feb 20 2008, 05:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAMES.SLIMM @ Feb 20 2008, 05:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Feb 20 2008, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Here's another one. Hey, Carter has been terrible this year, right? How many NBA players are averaging 20.0 points, 42.5% shooting from the field, 4.5 rebounds, and 4.0 assists? Answer: SEVEN (Dirk, Caron, Manu, LeBron, Kobe, Pierce, and Vince). With 5.6 rebounds and 5.2 assists per game, Vince doesn't just make the cutoff, either. [Note, the shooting percentage limit just serves to eliminate Baron Davis from this group] Of those seven, Vince is roughly tied with LeBron for the best assist-to-turnover ratio. And this is a terrible year for him! He is hurt! Playing in an offense where he is not the primary focus! Does everyone forget just how valuable he is when healthy?</div> Most of the People on this board don't see that, they just see Vince as the cause for all this teams problems, it doesn't matter that he's playing hurt they just want him gone ASAP...funny thing is all the people that want hime gone can not come up with any FA's the Nets can or have a realistic of signing, I'm still waiting for someome to fill me in </div> Not really in favor of moving him for the crap offered. Still hate what Kidd was traded for, should had let him expire than take back high Mavs picks. Though in a rebuild it's not always about FA. Look at the Raptors. Their players developed, bringing in pieces in trade and signing of lesser FA after shedding the contracts of Carter & Rose. Same time you risk a huge chance of just sitting in the 'crapper' for years before rebounding (Bulls). -Petey </div> I understand where you are coming from but as I said a good majority on this board want Vince off this team not because of what he can bring back but because they dislike him , the dude is playing hurt and they don't see that al they see is that he isn't as explosive or playing at the level he did last year. I'm just tired of reading all these rumors about VC for crap or VC for a gimpy JO, it's getting stupid really
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Feb 20 2008, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Feb 20 2008, 01:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>OK, one last thing. Do you think that a premier free agent will sign with the Nets to play with a roster of crap? What sort of advice do you think they'd get from Dwayne Wade right about now? Just because you have money to spend doesn't mean that a free agent will accept it! If you completely strip the roster and hope to sign a couple of free agents, it won't happen, and it will be a disater. You will end up having to overspend for some mid-level free agent that is NOT a star and has NO potential. You will have a roster full of Jamaal Magloires. Right now the Nets are starting to put together a decent young core, but it is no better than other teams with decent young cores. If the Nets trade Carter for expiring contracts and nothing else, it will signal that this team will not be competitive for a LONG time. It will look like November 2004. Again, if you could get, say, Miami and NY's first-round picks this year by trading Carter, then it would be a fascinating study. But absent something like that, I think you're just dooming this team to a terrible dark future.</div> You're right to an extent but I don't buy it that all the major free agents would ignore the Nets. They have a decent future with the picks and young players they're piling up, and the East is soft. Plus the team is close to New York City (some people do factor in that of course). Carter attracts fans so that makes up for his bad contract somewhat, but I just think you're going to another extreme. If the Nets keep or trade Vince, they'll get by about just as well. Both sides make good points. </div> Perhaps I'm being a little overly dramatic, but that's what it takes to survive in the Nets forum!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Feb 20 2008, 05:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'd say I believe the injury is affecting Vince - or at least I would really like to. Still, why the hell did we re-sign him if we knew he had an injury problem during the playoffs? Was the FO foolish enough to believe that a 30 year old player with injury problems the previous season would suddenly become completely healthy? I mean, we saw a similar thing with Jason Collins. He got injured one season, and we expected him to come back the next season all good and healthy, because of rest in the offseason. He comes back, and what happens? More injuries. Same thing happens the next season, and we're all in for disappointment. So you'd think, from the JC experience, we wouldn't go and re-sign a player with very recent injury problems to a really long contract, right? Nope. We give an injury-prone player, in Vince, a contract that he technically shouldn't ever get, because of his injury problems, he's an aging player, and he has little upside in the future. Add that to the fact that he's not exactly propelling us to wins, and that's why I'm pissed he has that contract, and that's why I believe he doesn't deserve it.</div> VC injured his hammy or knee or something. he sprained his ankle on Paul Pierce's foot earlier this year. Hardly related. Vince was a 25/6/5 player breaking Net offensive records left right and center. Thorn, a dubious GM at best when it comes to evaluating his team, and Ratner, both thought foolishly the Nets were contenders. The VC re-signing was a necessity in their minds at the time.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Feb 20 2008, 05:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>However, he appears to be improving, and the week off can only have helped. If you compare his stats on zero days rest to his stats on one or more days rest, you see a trend--he is definitely better with at least one day off between games, which could suggest that the injury is a factor. Get this: Since January 1, in the second game of the seven back-to-backs, Vince is averaging just 16.7 points on 42% shooting . . . and he is just 6-20 TOTAL on three-pointers. [that inlcudes one 29-point game on 10-17 shooting]. However, when he has one or two days off, he has produced much better. Just check the game logs. six of his seven games of 25 or more points were with at least one day off. All ten of the games that he took at least 18 shots were with at least one day off. Hopefully, he is getting better. Let's see how he ends the season.</div> Just thought I'd bump what I wrote before yesterday's game. The Nets had several days off, and Carter produces a monster game. I have grave doubts that this team can make the playoffs because of their remaining schedule . . . but admittedly I haven't looked at the schedules of the other teams, and anything is possible. But if by some fluke they DO make the playoffs, with all the days off, we'll see this out of Vince every night--if not more.
