Politics 'Ransom' paid to Iran?

Discussion in 'Blazers OT Forum' started by blue32, Aug 3, 2016.

  1. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Simply not true.

    There were negotiations to free the hostages ongoing for quite a while before the nuke deal was even pondered.
     
  2. riverman

    riverman Writing Team

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    What's simply not true is your posting about 400mil pd for ransom.....and ransom only...I don't know about those hostages being negotiated for since 1979....I think you're thinking of Ross Perot's employees when Carter was in office...we still have this little place called GITMO ourselves..and we've held political prisoners without bail for many, many years. What Obama did needed to be done...and I think this probably bothers you more than what happened...it's an opportunity to use the president as a scapegoat again...an ongoing theme
     
  3. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    The hostages in question were being held since the 2000s. Negotiations to free them about as long. To say the hostages were freed for any reason beyond the $400M in cash flown to the terrorists in the middle of the night, right before the hostages were released is kind of naive.

    Here's the Clinton News Network's take:

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/04/opinions/iran-payments-ghitis/index.html

    Despite Obama administration denials, the transaction looks very much like a ransom, adding one more disturbing layer to what was already a troubling and secretive agreement, and ensuring that relations with Iran, and the agreement over its nuclear program, will remain near the top of the agenda for the next president.

    Indeed, in January, when the deal was announced and the hostages released, many complained that the Obama administration was paying a ransom. The White House vehemently denied it, explaining that the $1.7 billion figure had nothing to do with the prisoners. Furthermore, it argued it was a good deal for the United States, settling a $10 billion claim filed by Iran at an international tribunal in The Hague over Iranian funds frozen in 1981, a matter separate from the much larger sums involved in the agreement to dismantle Iran's nuclear program.

    But is the White House telling the truth? State Department Spokesman John Kirby has repeated the Obama administration's denial, stating that the talks about settling the frozen assets claim and freeing the imprisoned Americans were conducted by entirely different negotiating teams.

    That explanation, however, is hard to swallow. A large cash payment at a time of a prisoner release looks precisely like a ransom payment. And that's what the Iranian commander of the dreaded Basij militia called it when he said the money "was in return for the release of American spies." If Iran thinks it was ransom, then for practical purposes it was.
     
  4. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    More:

    Since the nuclear deal was reached, Iran's spending on its military has grown exponentially. That has allowed it to help its ally, Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad, and the Hezbollah militias gain the upper hand in the Syrian war. Worse yet, just this week the country's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, stoked conspiracy theories, blaming the United States for the failed coup in Turkey and warning that negotiations with Washington on regional issues would be "a lethal poison."

    Iran has also stepped up its missile program, which U.N. resolutions had banned in addition to proscribing the nuclear program. After all, developing missiles capable of carrying warheads is a key requirement for a country seeking to develop a nuclear arsenal.

    Despite recent Iranian military spending and political rhetoric, the Obama White House views the nuclear deal as its paramount foreign policy accomplishment.
     
  5. riverman

    riverman Writing Team

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    you lost me at Clinton News Network...and you seem to really put a lot of weight behind...looks very much like....then using an Iranian soldiers bluster as a backup to the theory. I read articles about both takes on this and I believe that it was a deal that builds a foundation for dialogue and diplomacy....I believe John Kerry's take on it...apparently, you don't.
     
  6. riverman

    riverman Writing Team

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    Iran is surrounded by warring neighbors...they were spending money on arms back when we froze their money...we're spending money on military, China is, Russia is, France is, and on and on...Iran can spend their own money however they like unless you think we should just take their country from them. If they are buying our weapons again, I guess you'd give them a free pass
     
  7. riverman

    riverman Writing Team

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    I'd be way more worried about Kim Jong Un firing missles at Japan...don't see a lot of hawks shouting at them from the rooftops
     
  8. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    CNN, mouthpiece for the Democratic Party. Cheerleaders for Obama.

    Remarkably, they actually did their job in writing that article. The money quote:

    "If Iran thinks it was ransom, then for practical purposes it was."
     
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  9. riverman

    riverman Writing Team

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    So assuming there's one universal thought in Iran...."if" is such a money statement
     
  10. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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  11. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    All that matters is who got the money and who released the hostages in exchange for the ransom.

    "If" in that sentence means "since" or "because"
     
  12. riverman

    riverman Writing Team

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    bombing anyone is a lesser reason, but you honestly compare Hillary Clinton with Kim Jong Un who declares war on the US every week. China has a million missles aimed at Taiwan 24/7....a bully that intimidates a true democracy...we don't even vote them into the UN since Carter.....freeing some hostages and giving Iran their money back pales in comparison to what goes ignored and has for a long time...I just don't see anyone upset about not taking on Russia, N. Korea or China for sabre rattling and bullying. Personally I don't want to bomb any countries when other assets can diffuse tensions.
     
  13. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I didn't compare the two (Hiliar and Kim Jong Un). I compared the situation in Libya with the one in N. Korea. She urged the bombing of Libya and regime change there due to lesser crimes (compared to N. Korea's) against humanity. She didn't urge bombing of N. Korea or regime change there.

    As for China... GHW Bush went to a Democratic congress and asked them to grant China Most Favored Nation status, but they were partisan and refused. Our entire trade deficit with the world was $80B at the time. Fast forward to the Clinton presidency. He went to the Democratic congress and asked them to grant China MFN status and they had no problem doing so. By the end of the Clinton presidency, our trade deficit was $400B and $80B to China alone. Today, the trade deficit with China is $365B, a record high.

    FWIW, Bush was the first ambassador to China, appointed by Nixon when he normalized the relationship with the commies.

    I'm quite sure the administration did not want to leave a legacy of Iran/hostages as Carter did. Therefore, they gave up way more than we should have just for the sake of a deal (a bad deal!) and they paid the ransom for the hostages.

    "If Iran thinks it was ransom, then for practical purposes it was."
     
  14. MarAzul

    MarAzul LongShip

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    Oh Damn! Another logic day. You do know this forum is much more comfortable if you reflect the preferred feeling? How can you be so out of step?
     
  15. riverman

    riverman Writing Team

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    I'm guessing that would be porn which is probably the preferred feeling and explains how few posters actually engage in OT political threads...
     
  16. blue32

    blue32 Who wants a mustache ride?

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    Whatever you wanna call it. Money swapped hands for hostages. And we just gave a terrorist funding country millions of dollars. Fuck that.

    North Korea, and Iran can go fuck themselves. We should do no business with them aside from the ass kicking business.
     
  17. riverman

    riverman Writing Team

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    You really can't give money to anybody that's not your money to begin with...it's so damned simple. Ferdinand Marcos buried almost the entire Filipino treasury in US banks and lived in the states like a king in mansions and penthouses...we didn't give the Filipino people back their money if I remember correctly.
     
  18. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I'm quite sure there are 40+ year old debts, even debts going back centuries, that haven't been repaid. By nations, I mean. So THIS particular debt just happened to be a handy excuse for the administration to pay the ransom.

    The problem is, few fall for it and only the hard core sycophants defend it.
     
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  19. Nikolokolus

    Nikolokolus There's always next year

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    Bribe, ransom, debt repayment? I don't really care. What I do care about is what is State actually trying to "buy" with this 400 million dollars? If it's just hostages then it just reinforces the idea that the United States is playing checkers while more sophisticated nations are playing chess, when it comes to international affairs.

    That being said, Persia/Iran does have some legitimate grievances with the U.S. (All of that CIA-British Petroleum nonsense back in 1953 and then propping up the Shah over a democratically elected government and everything else that followed afterward as blowback -- the revolution, the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, etc.). If this is part of a strategic shift away from Saudi Arabia then I don't know if that's a good or bad thing, because I'm not an intelligence analyst and privy to the behind-the-scenes stuff, but off-hand I can see good and bad reasons for trying to soften some of the ill-will between Iran and the U.S, particularly with the amount of instability in various Sunni regimes and the subsequent rise of Sunni ISIS/Al-queda terrorist networks around the world, the simple fact is that we're probably going to need a strong Shia regional power (and that ain't Iraq) as an ally to act as counterweight and a stabilizing force in the region.

    Dangerous waters ahead.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2016
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  20. Nikolokolus

    Nikolokolus There's always next year

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