Raps Trade Villanueva for TJ Ford

Discussion in 'Toronto Raptors' started by J_Ray, Jun 30, 2006.

  1. TheFreshPrince

    TheFreshPrince JBB JustBBall Member

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    i really dont think that CV31 would have gotten you guys THAT much more. he still has a lot of gaps in his game. Like all the stuff Locke said. good true point guards are hard to come by. there just arent that many.
     
  2. Premium

    Premium JBB I'm kind of a big deal

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    here's a thought...tim thomas is signing with the clippers, and cassell probably isnt comming back...

    maybe a mike james sign and trade for maggette is in the works?

    if its possible...maybe not my #1 pick for our sf spot...but in exchange for mike james who's leaving anyways, thats not a bad pick up

    course this is PURE speculation...but since maggette wasnt happy with his minutes last season, i know there was talk about him being shipped out

    ford
    mo pete
    maggette
    bosh
    bargnani

    not bad, providing everyone stays healthy
     
  3. Johnny33

    Johnny33 JBB JustBBall Member

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    Ford's shot improved tremendously after he came back from injury, partly because he spent most of his down time working on his shot.

    Colangelo knows what he's doing - he was instrumental in bringing Nash to Phoenix and is trying to get the same type of quick, pass-first PG to Toronto in TJ Ford. Back then everyone thought they gave Nash too much, but no one in Phoenix mentions that now.
     
  4. NTC

    NTC Active Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't get the negativitiy already. It's not like TJ Ford is an unproven rookie who's a certified bust.</div>

    But you shipped out a proven player with loads of potential for a guy (Bargnani) who right now has a 50/50 chance of being decent in the same position. If I were a Raptors fan, thats what I'd be pissed at most. What if Bargnani does turn out to be a bust? Really, this trade should've at least waited until 3/4 - 2/4 way through the season.

    Also I'm not negative to this trade because of T.J Ford, I'm not a Raptors fan, so I dont really care what moves you make, I'm more negative (well for the Raptors fans) to the price you gave Villanaueva away for and more of the situation your team was in when the trade was made.

    T.J Ford is a good player, not once have I said otherwise, but there were ways around correcting the problem T.J Ford has been brought into solve, while keeping Charlie Villanueva on the roster in the process.

    And I dont know why people are using the "log jam" argument to try and some how put a positive spin on this move, Charlie Villaneuva would've been in the starting line up either way, so the "log jam" argument has no real bearing on him.
     
  5. Premium

    Premium JBB I'm kind of a big deal

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">But you shipped out a proven player with loads of potential for a guy (Bargnani) who right now has a 50/50 chance of being decent in the same position. If I were a Raptors fan, thats what I'd be pissed at most. What if Bargnani does turn out to be a bust? Really, this trade should've at least waited until 3/4 - 2/4 way through the season.</div>

    you dont know that for sure. im sorry, but there has been way too much talk about exactly what colangelo is doing and thinking...can you say with 100% certainty that's what BC is doing? no...you cant...and it really seems like you're speaking your opinion as fact.

    the only fact is, we dont know where BC is going with this move yet, because he has yet to make any more moves. im 100% positive that he's going somewhere with this...so lets see which direction he turns before condemning the move and the team. he could make a trade that brings in a quality proven small forward that's an improvment over charlie.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    And I dont know why people are using the "log jam" argument to try and some how put a positive spin on this move, Charlie Villaneuva would've been in the starting line up either way, so the "log jam" argument has no real bearing on him.</div>

    call me a cock-eyed optimist, but ill take any positive spin i can get right now, because at face value, this trade doesnt seem great for us. maybe as ACTUAL fans of the team, some of us are looking for the silver lining here...being pissed and dissapointed with the trade gets old quick. you dont approve...we get it lol.
     
  6. jbbCourtVision

    jbbCourtVision JBB JustBBall Member

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    I still like the trade regardless of the negative opinions.

    -Ford averaged 12 points and 6 assists a game last season helping the Bucks get into the playoffs.

    -Charlie averaged 13 points and 6 boards a game for a Raptors team that was bad enough to garner a #1 pick in this years draft.

    -TJ is just one year older than Charlie and still has not hit his ceiling in terms of player development.

    -TJ Ford is probably THE quickest guard in the NBA and will most likely be one of the top tier guards in a few years.

    -Charlie will become a good player but you have to give to get in this league and Charlie had to go.

    -What is harder to come by? A 6'10 player who can score 20 ppg or a point guard who can control a teams tempo and break down defences on a consistent basis? People say that Charlie has potential to be a 20 and 10 player and if that is the case then TJ has the potential to be a future 15 and 9 assist player.

    The Raptors filled a huge need with the trade and I really don't think we could have gotten a more quality guard with his amount of upside without giving up Charlie. If you can find a team with a quality guard who has upside then post it in here. TJ Ford is the perfect choice and Colangelo could have maybe squeezed a 1st round selection or a 2nd rounder but I'm not quite sure that would be an ultimate deal breaker.

    I know some of the comments made in this thread will come back and bite people in their ass later on when we are winning games and contending for a playoff spot but this is a message board so it is expected.
     
  7. hustler

    hustler Revving up the Engine

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    ^Nice post, i agree.
     
  8. BlueBayou

    BlueBayou JBB JustBBall Member

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    When I first heard it I hated it just because it was Charlie and he had a very good year, however, I thought back to a Raps vs. Bucks game that I went to, and TJ just killed us, he is probably the fastest player in the L. I just don't know what we are gonna do about our SG. We pretty much just created another need. I guess SG is easier to fill.
     
  9. Eclipse

    Eclipse JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post">here's a thought...tim thomas is signing with the clippers, and cassell probably isnt comming back...

    maybe a mike james sign and trade for maggette is in the works?

    if its possible...maybe not my #1 pick for our sf spot...but in exchange for mike james who's leaving anyways, thats not a bad pick up

    course this is PURE speculation...but since maggette wasnt happy with his minutes last season, i know there was talk about him being shipped out

    ford
    mo pete
    maggette
    bosh
    bargnani

    not bad, providing everyone stays healthy</div>

    Cassell re-signed for 2 years yesterday, Although I would absolutely love that lineup.
     
  10. 02civic

    02civic JBB JustBBall Rookie Team

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes...one of the best pg's in the league. Ur talkin about somebody who can defend, push the rock, assist, create ur own shot and plays with as much heart as AI. The only negative is his jumpshot, but it's improving every year. You guys must haven't seen the game where TJ locked down AI.</div>


    You're crazy..flat out crazy.

    One of the best pg's in the league? This was said earlier and i think we all came to the conclusion that he is not, and is a ways off from being.

    He cant defend. He gets steals cuase he's quick intercepting passing lanes, but he's not a strong man on man defender...most the pg's in the league are bigger than him!
     
  11. og15

    og15 JBB *********

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post">here's a thought...tim thomas is signing with the clippers, and cassell probably isnt comming back...

    maybe a mike james sign and trade for maggette is in the works?

    if its possible...maybe not my #1 pick for our sf spot...but in exchange for mike james who's leaving anyways, thats not a bad pick up

    course this is PURE speculation...but since maggette wasnt happy with his minutes last season, i know there was talk about him being shipped out

    ford
    mo pete
    maggette
    bosh
    bargnani

    not bad, providing everyone stays healthy</div>
    lol, it's funny because I was thinking of that, but from the Clippers perspective. Mike James is really a SG, with Livingston being a 6'7 pass first PG, you can easily team him and Mike James up in the backcourt and have Mike James guard the PG's.

    The problem with Maggette is that he DOESN'T stay healthy. His game is based on driving to the basket, and while the guy is a beast and one tough cookie, he stills get's injured a lot.

    This would be a good trade for both teams though if Maggette stayed healthy.
     
  12. 02civic

    02civic JBB JustBBall Rookie Team

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chutney:</div><div class="quote_post">There was a logjam, and part of the reason it was such a problem coming into the offseason is that we had absolutely nothing at the 1 and 2. We had arguably 8 forwards that had somewhat redundant playing styles (Bosh, Humphries, Villanueva, Bargnani, Graham, Tucker, Garbajosa, Sow). Don't you see the huge disparity we had between our guards and forwards? Only Peterson and Calderon were guaranteed to come back.

    And, you're acting like this is our finished product. We still have about 13 mill in cap space to fill the 3. I'm much more confident with BC spending money for a 3 than a 1, considering the lack of any good PG's on the market.


    The only legitimate complaint I see is that we didn't get enough for Villanueva. That is definitely valid and I certainly agree with it. However, I love how this trade suddenly allows us to push for a playoff spot without sacrificing any youth or taking on a bad contract. When it's all said and done, I think we would have had to choose between Bosh and Villanueva in the long run anyway. And I'm glad that we obtained a guard who addresses needs that this franchise has always had and who's value will only go up with time.</div>



    You said it, and its the main reason i'm upset. WE DIDNT GET ENOUGH FOR VILLANUEVA! Im my opinion for this trade to of been fair the Bucks would have at least had to give up a first rounder next year. Hell some frickin 2nd rounders! or take A. Williams contract off our hands! SOMETHING!

    That said i still say there was no log jam. A log jam is when you have alot of players in one position and they all deserve nice chunks of time. Kirk, Tucker, Graham and Sow do not constitute a logjam for me...more like a glut of projects. Key word there being projects. We now have only 1 forward in Bosh...then the rest are either inconsistent or plain old untested.

    Sure now we have a better situation with our point...but i personally dont feel comfortable with Bargnani starting off the bat...and i definately dont feel comfortable with Kirk Humphries and Joey Graham being our backups in those positions.

    As for BC's ability to get someone out of FA, i sure hope he does, cuase he took a risk making this trade before he had something set up with a player. As is now, if we dont get a SF/PF in free agency we dont have alot to offer in the form of a trade. Mike James is about it, and if Mike decides to sign with a team under the cap, we're screwed as we cant match

    Summary :
    BC should of waited to make this trade, waited to get somethign lined up through FA
    BC should of gotten more than just a point gaurd coming off a weak year who's missed more than half of his NBA career due to injury
    Its a risk


    Toronto's had so many ups and downs, its been a rollercoaster. We want change for the better and we want BC to give that to us. But the moves he's making are risks..if they dont pan out it's going to screw Toronto over yet again, and i'm just not sure the fans can take much more disapointment.
     
  13. Mr.Wade

    Mr.Wade JBB The Canadian Dream

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kirk Humphries</div>

    New player on the team? Who is Kirk Humphries?

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You said it, and its the main reason i'm upset. WE DIDNT GET ENOUGH FOR VILLANUEVA! Im my opinion for this trade to of been fair the Bucks would have at least had to give up a first rounder next year. Hell some frickin 2nd rounders! or take A. Williams contract off our hands! SOMETHING!
    </div>

    Well civic what do you propose we do? We can't turn back time, so I think we should all move on and try to think how else to improve the team, the trade has been made and we can't do anything else about it. I was mad about it to but I'm over it, and we have to improve the team by signing a FA SG/SF.
     
  14. 02civic

    02civic JBB JustBBall Rookie Team

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    ^ agreed. We should move on, i will move on.


    Just disspointed becuase someone like Charlie who's got talent AND is a great person you dont want to seem them go. IF you got a good deal in return its ok...but it stings when you loose someone like that AND dont benefit "enough" from it.


    that said if this bonzi wells deal goes through i will personally pull the BC bandwagon
     
  15. Chutney

    Chutney MON-STRAWRRR!!1!

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Toronto's had so many ups and downs, its been a rollercoaster. We want change for the better and we want BC to give that to us. But the moves he's making are risks..if they dont pan out it's going to screw Toronto over yet again, and i'm just not sure the fans can take much more disapointment.</div>
    I don't disagree with anything you said. Perhaps logjam is the wrong word. But there was too great a difference in depth between the guard and forward spots. And even if these moves eventually fall through, wouldn't you still feel comfortable with Colangelo getting us out of it? If he's shown us one thing, it's that he's shrewd, assertive, and always looking forward.

    IMO, this trade falls through if one of 2 things happen:

    1. TJ Ford fails to live up to his potential - This doesn't necessarily mean that he has to become better than Charlie, rather he has to return to the style of play from his rookie season. And he has to continue to improve and become what he shown to be capable of.

    2. Villanueva becomes a better player than Bosh - In the end, this move is about making a better team that compliments Bosh. Colangelo clearly thinks that a penetrating pass-first point guard would improve the team and Bosh better than Villanueva. If CV becomes better than it defeats the whole purpose of it.
     
  16. NTC

    NTC Active Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post">you dont know that for sure. im sorry, but there has been way too much talk about exactly what colangelo is doing and thinking...can you say with 100% certainty that's what BC is doing? no...you cant...and it really seems like you're speaking your opinion as fact.

    the only fact is, we dont know where BC is going with this move yet, because he has yet to make any more moves. im 100% positive that he's going somewhere with this...so lets see which direction he turns before condemning the move and the team. he could make a trade that brings in a quality proven small forward that's an improvment over charlie.

    call me a cock-eyed optimist, but ill take any positive spin i can get right now, because at face value, this trade doesnt seem great for us. maybe as ACTUAL fans of the team, some of us are looking for the silver lining here...being pissed and dissapointed with the trade gets old quick. you dont approve...we get it lol.</div>

    I dont recall ever talking about BC's plans on how he is going to run this team, I'm simply talking about the mistakes this trade was made on, and I'm 100% right. This trade was a VERY bold move by BC, you sort of almost have to credit him taking such a risk, considering Torontos past bad trade experiences and him not being on the job too long, but as I said, there were other options available to BC to fix the point guard problem while keeping Charlie in the process.

    Mr.Wade is right though, the trade has happened, we can't turn the clock back, so we're just going to have to learn to live with it, like it or not.
     
  17. Premium

    Premium JBB I'm kind of a big deal

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">I dont recall ever talking about BC's plans on how he is going to run this team, </div>

    well you're assuming that villa was shipped out for bargnani...what i was saying is you dont know that for sure...in effect what you're saying here is that villa was shipped out to make PT for bargs...when you really dont know thats the case. villa could have been shipped out because BC has someone lined up to come in and play the 3...bargs might not even be starting

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> but as I said, there were other options available to BC to fix the point guard problem while keeping Charlie in the process.

    </div>

    dont know that for sure either. unless you have some inside source, none of us have, you get all your info from the media...which half the time is speculation, opinions and congecture...so for all we know, this was really the offer that best suited what BC is trying to do
     
  18. playmaker15

    playmaker15 JBB Droppin Dimes

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    I don't like this deal at all especially with Ford's history of injury problems.
     
  19. Benvedis

    Benvedis JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">-TJ Ford is probably THE quickest guard in the NBA </div>

    With the ball Tony Parker has to be the fastest gaurd in the league, or quickest however you want to say it. I also want to add that, I agree with Charlie V being at SF. He'd still be in the line up and they didn't need a pg that bad. Calderon ring a bell? 4.5 assists in 23 min of work. Give him 40 min a game and he could average close to 10 assists a game. I admit he can't score like T.J. but Charlie V could and Jose could feed him.
     
  20. og15

    og15 JBB *********

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    ^
    It's arguable who's the fastest guy with the ball, you also have Earl Boykins, Barbosa, Devin Harris etc. Quickest and fastest aren't the same thing though.
     

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