I feel like this is reaching. My problem is not with Hinrich in isolation, it's with Thibodeau's tendency to give outsized minutes to veterans whom he has a history. Keith Bogans, Nazr Mohammed, Mike James, and Kurt Thomas to a much lesser extant. Five years from now, the fans for whatever team Thibodeau is coaching are going to be writing 2000 word posts trying to figure out what Luol Deng and Taj Gibson are playing huge roles for their team, even though they no longer can move around the court. The only thing we've heard about the front office and minutes for Hinrich is that, along with Rose and Noah, they must be limited. And I feel like it's too easy to write off these strange minutes allocations as inconsequential. Tony Snell and E'Twawn Moore have shown flashes of being solid two-way players who can score in bunches. Thibodeau has done a piss poor job of having those two prepared and integrated for the playoffs. I have no faith that Thibodeau's minutes allocations aren't going to cost this roster a series. Even Taj got killed in the brief stretch he played in the fourth quarter. He's not ready to switch on to perimeter players yet, which I suppose is to be expected when coming back from injury. I actually am not going to take much away from the on-court play. This was a travel back to back at the end of a long season. You mentioned in some thread that young players have greater variance in their production than vets. It's an interesting thought that feels right, but I wonder if it is accurate. I wouldn't be surprised if there are situations where old teams (travel back to backs) do worse than young teams.
I can't defend anything Kirk Hinrich related that this organization has done, long before Thibs. Last night when I was watching the game I found myself asking why Kirk Hinrich was out there so much. But, I've been asking that for about a decade now so its just something I've learned to get used to. I used to be chastised for saying such things though, now its the popular opinion. Snell is as ready as he's going to be. He's been getting plenty of playing time and has really taken a step up this season. In the grand scheme of things, E'Twan Moore vs Kirk Hinrich isn't going to be what decided the fate of the Bulls season this year, IMO. I think its a legit question if Thibs would get heat for making Hinrich the 12th man on the team. I don't think Uncle Jerry and Paxson would appreciate seeing their boy go out like that. And they did deem him fit for a player option next season. Mirotic is getting some serious playing time and is looking good. Asik played quite a lot under Thibs. Guys like Butler have blossomed under Thibs, going from rookie to all-star. He played Taj over 20 minute a game as a 2nd year player. Teague just sucked. In fact, most young players that actually seem like NBA players have played and done pretty well with Thibs. Nothing is going to go 100% the way that seems right to me, and I'm not an expert, so I try to look at it from a net perspective. If I had my way Jamal Crawford and Tyson Chandler would have been Bulls the last decade.
Good to see that Hinrich's impact on the outcome of games is still wildly overemphasized here. Going into the 4th quarter, Hinrich was +5...mighta had something to do with why Hinrich got the Q4 run.
Not to speak for SST, but he didn't comment about Kirk's impact on the game. I'm just sick of seeing him play SG (14:00 minutes last night) when a better player (Moore) is sitting behind him on the bench. It's bad enough that Thibs hasn't given Moore even one second at PG this season while Kirk has been horrible all year, but there's really no excuse for Moore to not be playing SG ahead of Kirk. And like SST said in another comment, it's more of a problem of Thibs not developing his entire roster, which every other playoff team does as I have pointed out many times (and proven with the actual numbers of minutes played). The only good thing about Kirk playing is the incredible comedy we get to read from folks defending Thibs with their "GarPax and Jerry would get mad if Thibs didn't play Kirk". You'd think the same ol' schtick would get old after 10 years, but no it's still quite comical to read delusion like that.
It would be quite comical to think that in an attempt to control minutes allocation by the head coach of a NBA team, the exec VP would actually strangle the head coach. Comical until it actually happened. This organization has been treating Kirk Hinrich in a bizarre fashion for a decade. Just last season he was getting announced last at the home games and before this season he was given the title of "Mr Bull" by the orgs publication. This season is nothing new. Its just that some people are now suddenly whipped up in a rage over it because it suits their current worldview. And yes, it does make for good comedy.
Lots of fans and media members have concluded that Hinrich's horrible. What Hinrich actually does in games doesn't much matter anymore to these folks. The book has been closed. Many Thibodeau apologists are among those whose Hinrich book has been closed. That's a little bit of a problem since Thibodeau still believes Hinrich has something to offer as a player. For those who are temperamentally incapable of acknowledging that they may be wrong, wildly fanciful explanations are needed to rationalize away the obvious conflict. I feel bad for these folks.
The book on Hinrich was closed before he signed the 2 year $8M deal before this one. My sense is that Thibodeau won't say "I don't want Kirk on the team" if management has already said, "you're stuck with him, make the best of it." That would make Thibs very professional in his dealing with it. If E'Twaun Moore is going to save the game, you are really hurting for talent. Who else was there to put in? Snell played like 20 of the last 24 minutes as it was. Who else?
Thibodeau has shown that, if he thinks the FO is screwing with him, he's not afraid to call them out for it. I think your sense of it is narrative-preserving bullshit, but enjoy.
It looks more to me like "if you're going to stick me with this stiff, I'm going to play him to spite you."
LOL, well some of us change our worldview when the world around us changes. Hinrich used to be a good point guard, even a very good PG for a couple of years. 1st-Team All Rookie, 2nd-Team All-Defense, 3 straight years of 15+ points and 6+ assists for a playoff team that had no All-Stars. His first two playoff years with the Bulls, he scored over 20 points per game in each series. Even after he left here, he went to ATL and was the starting PG one year and starting SG the next for a playoff team. Even when he came back here, he had lost a step, but his first season the Bulls went 38-22 when he started at PG, 7-15 when he was out. Even last year, the Bulls were 39-22 when he started, 6-6 when he played but didn't start, and 3-6 when he didn't play. But this year, he has been horrible. The Bulls are 13-9 when he starts, 19-18 when he plays but doesn't start, and 10-2 when he doesn't play at all. His PER is down 37% from the last two years (and worst of his career). His TS% is the worst of his career. His Ast% is down 35% from last year (and the worst of his career). His Steal% is career-worse. His Offensive Win Shares is a negative for the first time in his career. His Defensive Win Shares is a career worst. His FG% and 3ptFG% are career worst. My current worldview is based in reality, and the reality is that Kirk's play has fallen off the face of the Earth this season. Age has finally caught up to him this season, which is probably why GarPax brought in another combo guard as an insurance policy in case Kirk lost it this season. Unfortunately, Thibs has refused to give Moore even one minute at PG, preferring to run the corpse of Hinrich out there for 25 minutes a night.
Right. You look at how the front office has built rosters, and it looks like Thibodeau has little to no say over draft picks; some say over the bigger vet free agent acquisitions; and a great deal of say over vets on the back of the roster. This makes some sense, because Thibodeau has outright refused to play some pretty good players that aren't in his circle of trust, whatever that means. Transplant, I have to disagree with your earlier comment that "Hinrich's impact on the outcome of games is still wildly overemphasized." Hinrich played the entire fourth quarter yesterday, except a minute and a half. That's insane. You can't tell me with any certainty that giving those minutes to Moore, a better player, wouldn't have turned the momentum. Moore has won games for this team before. Hinrich is playing a substantial role on this team -- it's time to face the facts.
He used to be good. But it's been 2006-07 since he has been good. He's had so many bad seasons that he drove his PPG from ~15 a game down to 11.4 for his career. He hasn't shot over .400 from the field in 3 seasons. The guy struggled to have a PER over 10 for several seasons (since 2010-11). That's just bad. We could have had OJ Mayo (he signed with Dallas) for the money we spent on Hinrich's $4M contract. Brilliant signing. Like trading Aldridge for Tyrus.
You think Hinrich's a lot worse than I do and you probably think Moore is better than I do. I also highly respect Thibodeau's ability as a NBA talent evaluator. Given all these differences of opinion, it's little wonder that we disagree on Hinrich's impact.
The Bulls could have signed OJ Mayo instead of Hinrich in the summer of 2012... if you ignore the minor little detail that the Bulls needed a PG. Mayo has had 3 sub-14 PER's since then, wow what a loss. And that Aldridge for Tyrus was a horrible trade. 9 years ago. That's really relevant to this conversation.
I've always thought this as well. GarPax and Thibs are either mutually blind or insightful when it comes to Hinrich. You have to choose a lane. GarPax signed him w/ the player option, and Thibs plays him minutes despite having other options. You have to cook up some interesting narratives to arrive at the conclusion that one is a dufus and the other a victim. I think the obvious answer is one that most fans won't like: both GarPax and Thibs like Kirk a lot more than the average fan, including those patrolling message boards these days.
Good post rosenthall, that sums it up quite well. Last summer, GarPax had to know that Rose would miss games this year, even without the surgery. Hinrich knows the system, Thibs loves him, and he was still a decent enough player last season. Signing him to play this season for $2.732 million wasn't a bad thought at the time, but I don't know what in the hell they were thinking to give him a player option for next season. They did a great job of getting Brooks for the minimum, and they even brought in another combo guard in case Hinrich's level of play took a nosedive. But the player option for next year was just a horrible idea, plain and simple. But now in March, 100% of the blame for Kurt being on the floor so much goes to Thibs. Moore has looked pretty decent when he's gotten minutes, and he has played some PG in each of his first 3 seasons in the league, but Thibs refuses to even give him a shot. It's not a huge concern during the regular season, but once the team is 100% healthy it will be inexcusable if Kirk gets any PG minutes ahead of Rose or Brooks, and it will be a travesty if he gets any SG minutes ahead of Butler or Snell.
Rosenthall, I'm not sure we have enough information to conclude that Gar Foreman is on board with Hinrich's role on this team. Yes, Foreman signed Hinrich to the deal, but Hinrich has always been a favorite of Jerry Reinsdorf's. "I regret the fact that we lost Kirk (Hinrich)," Reinsdorf said in a 2010 after striking out on LJ and CB. If you're a GM you have to do what your owner wants sometimes. And again, it wouldn't be such a big deal if Thbodeau wasn't playing him as much as he is.
I personally don't have any problem with Hinrich playing around 10-15 or so minutes a game. Some have been ranting and raving that E'Twan Moore is obviously a better option and anyone who would choose otherwise is a "Thidiot." Others don't like the way the first chapter of "The Doug McDermott Story" is playing out and see Hinrich getting minutes and get upset about that, despite them not playing really similar roles on a NBA basketball team. My take is that Thibs trusts his vets and Hinrich has played his arse off for Thibs and the Bulls in the past. That being said, his minutes are lower than usual this month, even with Rose and Butler being hurt as of late. So that tells you something. Is Bulls management wanting Thibs to play Hinrich? Who knows, it would not be the strangest thing that we've heard happen. They gave him that player option so they must have thought somewhat highly of him going into this season. But obviously that's just conjecture, just a possible explanation. I think its totally plausible that if Thibs just banished him to being the 12th man on the team he would get some blowback from management and actually from the locker room as well. My money, if I had to bet, is that he's a popular vet in the locker room, he's very popular with the organization and Thibs trusts him for the most part, so he's really going to have to play his way out of getting minutes, especially if there isn't a clear cut replacement for his role. ---- For those that are Bulls fans and are now suddenly looking cockeyed at their TV screens and wondering "jeez, what is up with the Bulls and Kirk Hinrich?" all I can say is welcome to the party. You are a bit late, but you were always welcome. I did put away some of the good china in preparation for some of you arriving though.
Outside of the finances, is there any indication that Reinsdorf interferes heavily with player acquisition decisions? My impression is that Jerry spends most of his time in Arizona bumping grand kids on his lap and pays little attention to the day-to-day operations of the team. His son does that now. We have no way of knowing, but I doubt it was the invisible hand of Reinsdorf that led to Kirk getting signed for the BAE. I interpret the player option as something the FO saw as necessary to get him to sign. He reportedly had higher $$ offers elsewhere. Fans and the media frame it as Kirk vs. DJ, but I think that's a false choice. DJ signed for above the BAE, and was in his prime. He probably took every penny he could get. If Kirk left there was no guarantee that we'd get someone else to replace him, and it was basically a certainty that Derrick was going to miss games this season. And I think K4E summed it up very well: I think that's accurate.
Look, laughingstock. Mayo kicked ass for Dallas until Dirk went down to injury. Guys go to hell like Milwaukee and disappear. Seen that lots of times. LMA for Tyrus says a lot about talent evaluation of the guys drafting. Marquis Teague if 9 years is too much for your tiny mind to fathom. Erik Murphy.
