Seattle vs Minnesota: Official Game Thread

What separates Wally from Danny Fortson is the same thing that separates Wally from the majority of the players in the NBA? It's not that they played college basketball in neighboring cities in Ohio either.

When you look at it, how many white players in the history of the league have been referred to as head cases? The only one that I can think of off hand is Jason Williams, and b/c of his style of play and his demeanor he has to be referred to as "White Chocolate."

Generally white athletes are given the benefit of the doubt when they do something inappropriate in the heat of the battle. I don't know if anyone saw the playoff game between the Green Bay Packers and the Minnesota Vikings but Brett Favre actually threw a punch and connected it in a pushing and shoving match between both teams. He did it right in front of the referee and all the referee did was restrain Brett from hitting him again. No ejection, no flag, no nothing. He blatantly hit the linebacker in his face, closed fist, in front of the referee, and nothing happened. Had that been Randy Moss he would have been ejected and probably suspended. But b/c it was Brett Favre, probably the most marketable white player in the NFL, absolutely nothing happened.

How many white players this year have been suspended? Wally got away w/ what he got away w/ b/c the perception is that white NBA players aren't as volatile as their black teammates/opponents. I know many people will vehemently disagree w/ me but I don't see the same type of scrutinization for misbehavior in other sports where blacks are not dominant.

How else can you explain why the media spends more time focusing on the possibility of Barry Bonds knowing and willingly taking steroids rather than ripping into the fact that Jason Giambi admitted to knowing and willingly taking steroids when he had vehemently denied to the public that he was taking any performance enhancing drugs.

 

Barry Bonds is one of the greatest players of all time. People want to know if he achieved that through the help of drugs. Giambi was very good, but not at Bonds' level.

Also, less white players will get in trouble simply because there aren't as many.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, less white players will get in trouble simply because there aren't as many.</div>

I didn't talk about the ratio of whites to blacks getting in trouble. I'm just interested in knowing what white players are getting in trouble. No one here can honestly make the statement that white ball players are above confrontation or exempt from punishment.

I would like to hear anyone reasoning as to why players like Brett Favre and, I'm assuming now, Wally Szczerbiak can act a fool w/o any repercussion?

 

Why don't you gather up a collection of all the times they've acted out and prove those weren't one time incidents first?

 

Why, instead of answering my question w/ a question, can't you at least entertain the thought that black athletes get scrutinized and criticized far more than white athletes?

Something tells me that racism is one of life's least concerning issues for you. I could be wrong though. Maybe you are just naive.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">
Also, less white players will get in trouble simply because there aren't as many.</div>

Our very own Vitaly had a rumble this off-season. Sonics has a white thug!

 

I think with the Brett Favre thing, it was more of a clean past that may have got him off the hook. He's always had a nice country boy persona and isn't really a marked man when it comes to breaking NFL rules. Randy Moss is a known troublemaker who has been warned numerous times and another breaking of a rule by him must be seen as insubordination.

Racism might play somewhat of a part in this, but then again if a guy like Kyle Turley who is a white man that has been known to stir controversy were to act out, it would be scrutinized because he is a known troublemaker.

So, relating to basketball, Danny Fortson is a marked man because of his playing style. He may not commit all the fouls that he gets called for but what player does? Danny just plays extremely physical basketball and puts himself in the position to be called for fouls more than most players.

Then there is Shaq who hardly gets called for some obvious fouls, but that doesn't mean the NBA referees are out to get whites. He is just such a big name that he gets leeway. I think the NBA favors players and targets players but I don't think race has much if anything to do with it.

 

^ Exactly. It's all about reputation, not skin colour. If Wally had a history of being a jackass on the court (and he is a jackass off of it), and had developed a reputation, then he would have gotten at least a tech, probably an ejection. And don't try and tell me he hasn't developed a reputation because he's white either, because that is rubbish.

Greg Ostertag would have been ejected, and he's white.

 

You are right. Reputation has a whole lot to do w/ who gets punished and who doesn't. My thing is that I feel that many black athletes have a reputation for being volatile when their actions on the court/field aren't any different than those of white players.

My example. Brad Miller and Danny Fortson. Both players are obviously very physical and in the minds of many borderline dirty. Brad Miller has committed many cheap shot fouls in his career, to the point that Shaquille O'Neal (the player who has probably been fouled intentionally the most) actually took a violent swing at him. Brad Miller is praised for his grittiness and has made two consecutive All-Star games.

Danny Fortson on the other hand has had some success on the court but is known far more across the league for being a volatile/dirty player. He's been called on the record by an NBA owner as being a thug, leads the league in fouls per game and is among the league leaders in technicals. Nothing that Fortson has done off of the court suggest that he is a thug or a cancer to his team. He is starting to change his perception around the league only b/c the Sonics are winning and he was the only new addition (w/ the exception of Nick Collison) from a team that won only 37 games last season. He's had better seasons in Denver and Golden St. but those contributions happened w/ little praise.

Two players, two similiar games, two totally different perceptions. When someone goes on the record to call Brad Miller a thug than I promise I will never bring up any race related issues on this site again.

(Please 'Spoon or Casual don't reply that Brad Miller is a thug)

One other thing. If race has nothing to do w/ this, why in the majority of publications I read do they suggest that Ronald Murray be traded or that he doesn't fit in w/ this team. If we are winning w/ him on the roster and he is handling himself like the ultimate professional why would the media suggest that he wasn't fitting in and that he needed to be shipped out of town. I would think that he would be an example of how to handle yourself when you are obviously not getting a fair shake. That wouldn't garner much interest considering that most media outlets would rather cover an athlete who can't accept a gift, let alone a demotion.

Bottom line, if Flip Murray was white he'd be one of the most marketable players in the league. Do you honestly believe that a white player who made so much of a splash last season would be benched averaging 22 points a game and then relegated to scrub minutes the year after? Jason Williams has been a full time starter his entire career despite atrocious defense and very questionable decision making both on and off the court. Hell, he was drafted seventh overall after being kicked out of Florida. That says enough right there in terms of which complextion has the protection.

Shard, it took Kyle Turley to threaten to kill his coach before the media really ran w/ that story and even that was on the back pages behind Randy Moss's antics. I rather talk about the hockey player who hired a hit on his agent, I believe. I don't think I know the entire story considering how small the amount of attention that controversy received.

Bottom line, Shard. If you punch someone in the face, the referee should at least throw a flag. Even if that person throwing the punch is Elvis Presley.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">Why, instead of answering my question w/ a question, can't you at least entertain the thought that black athletes get scrutinized and criticized far more than white athletes?

Something tells me that racism is one of life's least concerning issues for you. I could be wrong though. Maybe you are just naive.</div>
You're doing the same thing. It's because my question has to be answered before I accuse anybody of being racist. I know racism is out there, but being paranoid about it and accusing people doesn't do anybody any good.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual is a poo-poo brain:</div><div class="quote_post">(and he is a jackass off of it)</div>
He turn you down for the prom?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">One other thing. If race has nothing to do w/ this, why in the majority of publications I read do they suggest that Ronald Murray be traded or that he doesn't fit in w/ this team. ....

Bottom line, if Flip Murray was white he'd be one of the most marketable players in the league. Do you honestly believe that a white player who made so much of a splash last season would be benched averaging 22 points a game and then relegated to scrub minutes the year after? ...</div>
...

I hardly need to comment on this one. In fact, I won't.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">You're doing the same thing. It's because my question has to be answered before I accuse anybody of being racist. I know racism is out there, but being paranoid about it and accusing people doesn't do anybody any good.</div>

I haven't accused anyone of being racist. I'm saying that the perceptions and punishments of black athletes are often different than those of white athletes who are doing the same wrong things.

If you think I'm paranoid, where is the trade Vitaly Potapenko articles in the Times, PI, or Tribune. Why hasn't anyone entertained that thought and created a thread on this site?

There is nothing paranoid about this. I'm not going to accept the disparancies in the treatment between two sets of athletes and it doesn't do any good for blacks to just shut up and accept that "that's just the way it is." It might not do any good for you, but it's something that needs to be addressed. I think that you have 2005 mixed up w/ 1965. We can all voice our concerns now w/o penalty.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">

Shard, it took Kyle Turley to threaten to kill his coach before the media really ran w/ that story and even that was on the back pages behind Randy Moss's antics. I rather talk about the hockey player who hired a hit on his agent, I believe. I don't think I know the entire story considering how small the amount of attention that controversy received.</div>
It hasn't been proven yet that Turley did indeed threaten Mike Martz. All that has been confirmed is that there was a heated exchange over whether or not Turley really needed as much time as he got for his injury. Yet because of Turley's helmet throwing incident in New Orleans, it is automatically believed by fans and the media that there is no doubt he threatened his coach. Mike Martz is known for acting like a nutcase on the sidelines yet he gains all the credibility because of Turley's reputation as a psycho.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Bottom line, Shard. If you punch someone in the face, the referee should at least throw a flag. Even if that person throwing the punch is Elvis Presley.</div>
I agree with you, but I just think that reputation plays a much larger role in these calls than race. The fact that blacks are victim of this more than whites is purely coincidence or like Casual said, because blacks outnumber whites in the NBA.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">I haven't accused anyone of being racist. I'm saying that the perceptions and punishments of black athletes are often different than those of white athletes who are doing the same wrong things.

If you think I'm paranoid, where is the trade Vitaly Potapenko articles in the Times, PI, or Tribune. Why hasn't anyone entertained that thought and created a thread on this site?

There is nothing paranoid about this. I'm not going to accept the disparancies in the treatment between two sets of athletes and it doesn't do any good for blacks to just shut up and accept that "that's just the way it is." It might not do any good for you, but it's something that needs to be addressed. I think that you have 2005 mixed up w/ 1965. We can all voice our concerns now w/o penalty.</div>

rac?ism Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

You must be accusing somebody of being racist, unless what you claim happens just is. Every example you bring up has an easy counterpoint. Bonds is a hall of famer who cheated. Favre is a hall famer who had a good record. Flip is talked about because he's the Sonics' biggest asset and they've won without him. Trade Vitaly Potapenko? For what, a pound of bacon?

Yes, you are being paranoid. Coming up with theories is all well and good, but you have no proof whatsoever. This is the same as me saying "I got a bad grade in that class because the teacher didn't like me". Who would care if I said that without any proof? My mom, maybe.

It might be you that's living in 1965. There is still racism, but it is no longer all-encompassing. We cannot blame everything on race anymore unless we know for a fact that race is a part of the problem. I think blacks are hurt more by people who go around complaining that things are racist than by people who don't complain. There are racist people everywhere. They're black, white, hispanic, asian, and every other ethinicity you can think of. It won't help to go around accusing everybody of it. The best we can do is try to help the ones we know are guilty and make sure future generations are more tolerant than us.

 

Please, if comedian Paul Mooney ever performs anywhere near UW, please go see him. Sit up front too.

You have absolutely no idea what type of subtle racism still exists towards blacks. I don't claim to understand nor do I disregard the issues that white people have to go through. Please don't trivialize or underestimate the problems that black people still have to go through.

It's easy to turn the other cheek when you aren't getting the short end of the stick. Don't give me that self-righteous bullsh*t about how people who voice their concerns are doing damage to the progress made between whites and blacks. I made a statement, agree or disagree. You aren't black, so I don't expect you to share my same views anyway.

When I start pointing fingers at JBB members for being racist, then you can say I'm accusing someone. Making an argument that there are discrepancies for judgment between white and black athletes doesn't mean that I'm calling all of white america bigots. Read the posts before you reply, fam.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">You aren't black, so I don't expect you to share my same views anyway.</div>



I'll reiterate my point. When it comes to racism, especially in a broad medium such as pro sports: You. Have. No. Proof.

 

I didn't realize that they kept injustice stats. How many points do you get for a successful attempt of discrimination?

If you are looking for proof, read your damn history books.

 

I don't have any that mention Brett Favre and Wally Szcerbiak. I thought we were talking about modern stuff, not what happened fifty years ago.

 

I hope that this is modern enough for you.

Ron Artest gets suspended w/o pay (5.5 million) for an entire year and is still facing criminal assault charges after charging into the stands when he had already been assaulted twice (w/o provoking either incident).

The ex-con who instigated the riot by throwing the drink on Artest and assaulting Artest when he went into the stands got his season ticket passes revoked, is banned from the Palace, and is facing criminal charges.

Modern day justice.

 

Hitting a man after he has thrown liquid on you is not self-defense. When did Artest even go after the guy who threw stuff at him? He charged the wrong one, remember? I'm afraid I don't get your point. They were both punished correctly, as far as I'm concerned, as long as they both get a fair judgement in court.

 

A) Ron Artest has a reputation. Fair or not, that reputation is entirely down to his own doing.

Exactly as Casual pointed out, throwing some drink on someone is not assault. Running into the stands and hitting the right guy is not self defense, it's assault. Running into the stands and hitting the wrong guy is unprovoked assault.

Artest's suspension was spot on, and brought about because he's an idiot, not because he's black.