<font color="Red">The Shaq vs. Kobe thread was removed. This whole situation has provided nothing but personal attacks,arguments and asinine behavior all the way around. If you guys cannot talk about the situation without insults and overall ridiculousness then don't talk about it at all. Everyone here is intelligent enough to know what to do and what not to do. If not,then I suggest you read the <u>guidelines</u> and I suggest you do so now. The bottomline is what it has always been. Take the 10 seconds to ask yourself if what you are going to post will add to the conversation in a <u>intelligent</u> manner. If it will not then do not post it. Pretty simple. ~Dre</font>
First off, I'd like to apologize if I did offend anyone. Everyone knows I'm very quick to debate anything that has to do with the Lakers and Kobe Bryant, so when there's an issue that needs to be resolved, you'd more than likely find me in the middle of it. However, I do feel as if this topic is the worst as far as personal attacks and criticism go. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if each member asks for respect for those opinions, you have to give respect also, and that's including to both Shaq and Kobe. Looking from both sides of the debate, there are many facts and opinions you can pull from it. Shaq's comments about Kobe and the Lakers, as well as Kobe's comment about Shaq...these are facts that can be proven with sources. Bringing up comments about their personal lives and judging their success on that is simply uncalled for. Instead, in a debate between the two players, eliminate what each does behind closed doors and address the issue at hand with intelligent information that you can safely back up without being harassed and called "ignorant" and "stupid" from other members. With that said, again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone in both threads that have been removed/closed. Please, let's keep the peace and continue to debate in a mature manner. Thanks. :thumbsup: -Brandon
I already wrote my thoughts about the bickering, but it was deleting with the thread. I think that all those who saw it needed to, so I'm not typing it up again. That said, could a mod please move this thread to the NBA forum, or at least a more neutral location?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">I already wrote my thoughts about the bickering, but it was deleting with the thread. I think that all those who saw it needed to, so I'm not typing it up again. That said, could a mod please move this thread to the NBA forum, or at least a more neutral location?</div> doesn't need to be in a 'neutral' location. the majority of the things were going on here by people (non LA fans) creating threads to start garbage. if it flairs up elsewhere like it has in this forum it'll be dealt with.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">doesn't need to be in a 'neutral' location. the majority of the things were going on here by people (non LA fans) creating threads to start garbage. if it flairs up elsewhere like it has in this forum it'll be dealt with.</div> While that may be true, I would just like to say on behalf of all "non LA fans" that a lot of us do have valid, relevant, and intelligent points. Maybe if people would stop assuming that everything is not said in favor of one of the two players is said to "start garbage" we could actually discuss this intelligently. Someone start the discussion.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">While that may be true, I would just like to say on behalf of all "non LA fans" that a lot of us do have valid, relevant, and intelligent points. Maybe if people would stop assuming that everything is not said in favor of one of the two players is said to "start garbage" we could actually discuss this intelligently. Someone start the discussion.</div> i agree,not everyone tries to start an argument based on overly biased opinions of one player. but having that said that,the reasons i stated are the primary reasons for the threads going down the tubes.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">Someone start the discussion.</div> Okay, will do. But I won't state my opinion just yet...first, I'll state solid facts. <ul> [*]Shaq never won a championship without Kobe and Phil. Shaq had the chance to, from 1992 up until 1998, but was unable to until Kobe's stats soared and Phil arrived in LA. [*]Kobe never won a championship without Shaq and Phil. Kobe was not capable of producing for the Lakers his rookie year, like Shaq was in Orlando. Three years later, Kobe comes off the bench and begins to play a little more minutes, but never does win a ring by himself, nor does he ever get the chance...until now. [*]It's impossible to state who is better between Kobe and Shaq. It's like comparing Wilt and Jordan, Magic and Russell, Hakeem and Bird...two different players, with different games. Kobe is the more complete player, while Shaq is the more dominant. Kobe is quicker, Shaq is stronger. Both Kobe and Shaq have shown improvements in their conditioning, with Kobe gaining muscle and Shaq losing weight...but, there's no qualities that have enough credibility between the two that can determine the better player. [*]In the 2004 NBA Finals, neither Shaq or Kobe were at fault. The triangle was defeated by the Pistons. The passing lane was shut down, and unless Shaq was to bring the ball down court every play, it was nearly impossible to get a pass through Rip/Tay on the double team, and Rasheed in the passing lane, to Shaq. If Payton and George had better off-the-ball play, they could've helped and Shaq may have had more ball touches...but that wasn't the case. [*]Shaq asked for a trade and admits that it was solely his decision. Phil was already hinting at retirement, and once Shaq heard the news that Phil was gone, he told Kupchak that it was time for him to go elsewhere. He also admitted that the Lakers didn't want to give him anymore money, and that he wasn't going to go through with either playing and no extension, or taking a paycut...so now he's in Miami. [*]Team chemistry is far more important than quality and quantity of the players on the roster. Look at the Pistons. How about the Grizzlies? The Lakers, with Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton, lost in the Finals and hardly anyone predicted the beating that they received. If the Heat and/or the Lakers develop team chemistry, they'll do great...no matter who they have. The Lakers have Kobe/Odom/Butler, and the Heat have Shaq/Wade/Jones...and both trios are new to each other in a way (Odom & Butler played together, and so did Wade & Jones)...so, with the team unity that both teams are showing, on-court chemistry is the next step. [/list] There ya go...these are facts, not opinions. I don't really have much else to say, other than that it's wrong to doubt both Kobe and Shaq, considering both have rings on their fingers and were part of one of the biggest dynasties in the NBA. Shaq has to prove that he can run a team with a young rookie already holding the reigns, while Kobe has to prove that he can make others better and take over the team as a leader. If both are proved, we may one day see a Lakers/Heat Finals...maybe not this season or the next, maybe not ever...but nothing is impossible.
It's kind of odd now, because in all those other threads we knew what we were debating. It's not very clear in this one. Are we arguing about who is the better player? Who is more to blame for the media battle? Who is to blame for the trade? Who is to blame for the finals? Who's team is better/would win a 7 game series? Who's the better leader and more successful individual player? I'm not even trying to be funny. This thread would be hit up a lot more if it was clear. I suggest that we discuss who's team is better/would win a 7 game series. That (former) thread had the most intelligent discussion, and lasted longest before havoc broke out.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post"><strike>Are we arguing about who is the better player?</strike> Who is more to blame for the media battle? <strike>Who is to blame for the trade?</strike> <strike>Who is to blame for the finals?</strike> Who's team is better/would win a 7 game series? Who's the better leader and more successful individual player?</div> Three of those aren't questionable. Those were what I was talking about when I listed the facts in the post before yours. I say this thread is to debate the better team, better leader and to discuss the media battle between the two.
I personally dont think either is to blame for the media battle. The media brings out the worst in both of them. Shaq and Kobe are both flamboyant and the media milks them of everything they are worth then twists the story into something the public wants to hear. Who would win a 7 game series? The Lakers. They have more depth on their roster than I've seen in years. Kobe has been playin unselfishly, and I think Kobe knows what must be done to win. They just look better on paper right now than the Heat do. A better player? You cant compare Kobe to Shaq or Shaq to Kobe. They are both playin different positions. How can you compare the skills of a center to the skills of a Guard. Both are probrably the best in the league right now in their respective positions. If you are looking straight up at what they have won, I'd give the edge to Shaq. He has the Finals MVP's, Regular Season MVP's, etc.. Kobe could not get that in Shaqs shadow. Always playin the sidekick. But its Kobe time now, and I think over the next few years Kobe is capable of matching the success that Shaq has. Both players have never won a championship without one another so both have something to prove.
the lakers would definitely win a 7 game matchup against the heat. there are just too many mismatches in the roster thats in favor of LA. shaq's biggest support comes from wade and prbably jones but thats about it. LA has a terrific bench, their bench in the offseason has proved to be very productive.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting trenchteam:</div><div class="quote_post">Who would win a 7 game series? The Lakers. They have more depth on their roster than I've seen in years.</div> Then why couldn't the Kings beat the Lakers all those years? Please don't try to tell me that the Lakers were deeper than the Kings, because they weren't. So that must mean that: A). The Lakers got lucky or Depth does not matter all that much when you have players that know their role and are willing to share. So either admit that depth is not that important or that the Lakers were lucky. That's kinda funny actually, because everyone went off on a poster yesterday when he/she claimed that the Lakers were lucky in beating (the deeper) Kings. Now you come and say that the Lakers will win because they have a deep bench .
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Then why couldn't the Kings beat the Lakers all those years? Please don't try to tell me that the Lakers were deeper than the Kings, because they weren't. So that must mean that: A). The Lakers got lucky or Depth does not matter all that much when you have players that know their role and are willing to share. So either admit that depth is not that important or that the Lakers were lucky. That's kinda funny actually, because everyone went off on a poster yesterday when he/she claimed that the Lakers were lucky in beating (the deeper) Kings. Now you come and say that the Lakers will win because they have a deep bench .</div> ur right, the kings couldnt beat the lakers even though they had depth. the laker wins were mainly due to the efforts of both kobe AND shaq along with the shooting of goerge,fisher and horry. but the heat do not have a kobe and shaq do they? they have shaq and a rookie.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Then why couldn't the Kings beat the Lakers all those years? Please don't try to tell me that the Lakers were deeper than the Kings, because they weren't. </div> The Kings were deeper than the Lakers that year, but I don't think any team could beat the Laker when Shaq and Kobe were both on the same page and on top of there game.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Then why couldn't the Kings beat the Lakers all those years? Please don't try to tell me that the Lakers were deeper than the Kings, because they weren't. </div> The Lakers had the best Center in the league and the best shooting guard in the league. Period. It didn't matter if you had the best player in the game in Tim Duncan or posessed the depth that the Spurs/Kings had, the Lakers had TWO of the top 5 players in the NBA. And the chemistry was strong. Chemistry + Superstars= Unstoppable. On top of that, the roster was solid. Not weak like last year's but actually solid in and out. Egos weren't as inflated and everyone was hungry for rings. Everyone knew thier roles. I'm obviously talking about the Lakers of the 3 rings and not the 2003 or 2004 ones.
The Lakers didn't get lucky. SacTown just choked everytime and never won a title while the Lakers earned 3 of them. No force on this earth could stop Kobe and Shaq when they "Decided" to play together. And this year, thus far, the Lakers bench has proved to be effective. They are playin with confidence. The Kings bench although much better than the Lakers in previous years, didn't play as well. They choked under pressure. BTw,whats up with all you Laker Haters and the valley girl eye smiley?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting trenchteam:</div><div class="quote_post">The Lakers didn't get lucky. SacTown just choked everytime and never won a title while the Lakers earned 3 of them. </div> But they had to get past the Kings to win those rings right? First you claim that depth of the Lakers is better than having two good players on the Heat. Then when I point out that the Lakers have owned a more deep Kings team over the past few years, you say that it is based on the skill of two players and their chemistry? Besides, we all know that the Kings had more chemistry than the Lakers. So please either admit that the depth of a team is not a valid reason for why they will win, or admit that the Lakers were lucky. I don't feel that the Lakers were actually lucky, but for a Laker fan to say that the Lakers won because "Sactown choked everytime" implies that the Lakers were lucky. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">BTw,whats up with all you Laker Haters and the valley girl eye smiley?</div> I would just like to point out that if this thread does end up getting closed, a Laker fan is the one who started making unesscessary and irrelevant generalizations about us non-LA fans.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting yanix:</div><div class="quote_post">ur right, the kings couldnt beat the lakers even though they had depth. the laker wins were mainly due to the efforts of both kobe AND shaq along with the shooting of goerge,fisher and horry. but the heat do not have a kobe and shaq do they? they have shaq and a rookie.</div> Are you agreeing with me? Or are you trying to argue that the Lakers are more deep than the Kings? Don't sit here and tell me that Shaq, Kobe, Fisher, Horry, and George are more deep than Bibby, Peja, Webber, Christie, BJax, Hedo, Divac, and the other various players that came and went from the Kings during those years. Besides even if you feel that chemistry is the reason why the Lakers won, the Kings really had more. Have we ever heard a debate about a superstar not wanting to run Adleman's offense? Have we ever heard any of their top players fighting for the ball or minutes? Bobby Jackson is a prime example of the Kings organization, would start on most teams, and should arguably be starting for the Kings. Yet he doesn't complain. So no, the Lakers did not have more chemistry or depth. In short, looking at the current Lakers you cannot conclude that they would beat the Heat simply because they are deeper.
The Kings were defeated because of many reasons, one being that the pressure of being a top team in the playoffs allowed room for error, yet, lack of defense and their team chemistry that they had all season long seemed to be exploited in a seven-game series. Last year's Kings played great with Peja, but once Webber came back into the lineup, they ended up losing their division...which tells me that there IS in fact something wrong with the team's unity or the chemistry on the court. There's no point in really arguing about why the Kings lose anyways...because they are usually great in the regular season, but never make it past the other top teams in the playoffs. The topic is the Heat vs. the Lakers, Shaq vs. Kobe. Depending on how fast each team gets adjusted to each other, that will decide who wins the game. With that said, the Heat aren't practicing much with Shaq, who now may miss the season opener. Van Gundy has already stressed that he's upset with Shaq just a little...which spells trouble already. On the other side of the league, the Lakers are getting along with each other, and Rudy Tomjanovich has stated how much he really likes Kobe as a player, praising his abilities and leadership. That's a good start to developing chemistry and unity, right? Right now, the Lakers are a better team than the Heat. That's an opinion, true...but when you can't practice with Shaq, you really don't give much support to prove that the Heat are any good at all right now. A disgruntled coach doesn't help. Later on in the season, if Shaq stays healthy, who knows what'll happen. But at this moment, the Lakers are the better team and would defeat the Heat, with Shaq playing or not.
