<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">The topic is the Heat vs. the Lakers, Shaq vs. Kobe.</div> Yeah I know, the only reason I brought up the Kings was to prove that the supposed depth in LA wont guarantee wins. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Depending on how fast each team gets adjusted to each other, that will decide who wins the game. With that said, the Heat aren't practicing much with Shaq, who now may miss the season opener. Van Gundy has already stressed that he's upset with Shaq just a little...which spells trouble already.</div> That is another point that I was going to make. The Lakers have a much bigger turnover than the Heat. There is a big difference between losing and gaining players. Remember what happened last year? Adding all those guys didn't help you win a championship. I dont think that you are the type to blatantly lie, but I haven't heard about Stan being upset with Shaq. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">On the other side of the league, the Lakers are getting along with each other, and Rudy Tomjanovich has stated how much he really likes Kobe as a player, praising his abilities and leadership. That's a good start to developing chemistry and unity, right?</div> I don't really want to bring up the Kings anymore. So lets talk about the Mavs, chemistry hasn't gotten them anywhere. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Later on in the season, if Shaq stays healthy, who knows what'll happen. But at this moment, the Lakers are the better team and would defeat the Heat, with Shaq playing or not.</div> By the same token, if Kobe slices his hand again this year or if Lamar gets caught blazing again (he's back in Cali now.....) the Heat would easily beat the Lakers. I'm not trying to be funny or hate, but if we are going to examine potential negative things that could happen to the Heat, we should do it for LA as well.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">I would just like to point out that if this thread does end up getting closed, a Laker fan is the one who started making unesscessary and irrelevant generalizations about us non-LA fans.</div>That was a serious question. Look at all the threads. The eye roll is used everywhere! Im not bashing or hating, im just asking a question. What with the drama having to be involved in this? You mentioned the Kings depth of the past. I mentioned the Lakers depth this year. They are playing great. Prior to this year, the Lakers relied on star play of Kobe and Shaq on role players such as Horry and Fisher. This years Laker Depth is much different. All players are contributing in a postive way. From Mihm, Butler, Cook, etc... You see these players really steppin up and believing they can win. SacTown had their chance. Plenty of them I might add. Now its the Lakers turn to prove they can win with this team. I think they can and will.
Jurassic, I'm not talking about potential negative things that could happen...I'm talking about now. Negatives already for the Heat...ask Accord. He's disappointed in the trade, and he was from the beginning...and he's a huge Heat fan from what I understand. As for Van Gundy being a little upset, here: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Besides worrying about his franchise player's health, Van Gundy is also concerned that the lack of practice time for O'Neal has stalled the team's progress in preparation for the season. ''It's more of a concern, yes,'' Van Gundy said. ``We thought we'd have him back full today, but we didn't. It's a concern from the sense that, obviously his health is the biggest thing, and then the second thing is we haven't practiced with him in a long, long time. That, in terms of our offensive work, affects a lot of what we're going, and we haven't worked on it at all.'' O'Neal was healthy enough Monday to go through defensive drills, but did not take part in five-on-five, full court work, which had Van Gundy miffed.</div> http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/10071294.htm The first in bold isn't a direct comment about him being mad...but if he's willing to address that in the manner that he did, it's pretty obvious. Plus, even if you don't believe that he is just from that, then what's in bold below it directly says it all. Wouldn't you be angry, though? The Heat already had trouble staying healthy in the preseason...and maybe Wade and Jones' injuries were minor and they still played, Haslem's was bad. In fact, Haslem actually lost feeling on one side of his body/leg or whatever...and Rasual had to leave one of the games. This is stuff that's happening, not stuff I'm assuming. It's not good for the Heat.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you agreeing with me? Or are you trying to argue that the Lakers are more deep than the Kings? Don't sit here and tell me that Shaq, Kobe, Fisher, Horry, and George are more deep than Bibby, Peja, Webber, Christie, BJax, Hedo, Divac, and the other various players that came and went from the Kings during those years. Besides even if you feel that chemistry is the reason why the Lakers won, the Kings really had more. Have we ever heard a debate about a superstar not wanting to run Adleman's offense? Have we ever heard any of their top players fighting for the ball or minutes? Bobby Jackson is a prime example of the Kings organization, would start on most teams, and should arguably be starting for the Kings. Yet he doesn't complain. So no, the Lakers did not have more chemistry or depth. In short, looking at the current Lakers you cannot conclude that they would beat the Heat simply because they are deeper.</div> i will try to be as exact as i can so that you will not be confused. i did not say that the lakers were deeper than the kings. i said that it was mainly because of shaq and kobe that they won with the help of others. and im not saying that the shaq wade combo would beat any deep team either because the shaq and wade combo is not as good as the kobe shaq combo. get that to your head.
I'm not sure if anybody else sees it this way, but looking at the Lakers reminds me of a more talented version of the Raptors or Bucks. They got plenty of talented guards, swingmen, and forwards. However, they lack an experienced PG or C. When it comes down to a seven game series I think they can beat the Heat, because they lack depth. But I think they are pushing for a playoff spot, and can't expect much success when matching up against the elite Western teams. Shaq on the other hand is lucky enough to have an easy conference.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting R_ChutneY:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not sure if anybody else sees it this way, but looking at the Lakers reminds me of a more talented version of the Raptors or Bucks. They got plenty of talented guards, swingmen, and forwards. However, they lack an experienced PG or C. When it comes down to a seven game series I think they can beat the Heat, because they lack depth. But I think they are pushing for a playoff spot, and can't expect much success when matching up against the elite Western teams. Shaq on the other hand is lucky enough to have an easy conference.</div> Well, I know you're a Raptors fan, so I'm hoping you don't take this the wrong way...but the Raptors have Vince, and all he's done is win a Slam Dunk Contest. He's got problems with the organization and isn't close to filling the leadership role every team needs. However, I feel like Vince will have a breakout year soon...so just letting you know that. And as for being experienced...Divac is really experienced, and so is Atkins. Grant and Malone (if he comes back) are also experienced, and Kobe also. The Bucks don't even compare. We've got youth, experience, shooters, passers, a few rebounders, and scorers. We're underdogs, and that's exactly where Kobe wants to be because he feeds off of criticism and pressure...just look at his past. Plus, those are two East teams. No comparison to the Lakers at all. The Spurs' center is Rasho Nesterovic...the Wolves' center is Michael Olowokandi...yet they are favorites to win it all. A center doesn't matter as long as your team can play great.
I would just like to say, about your center comment, that the thing isn't Centers win. It's that big men are better to build around. Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan are Big Men, power fowards who can play the post and dominate from there. I think that there is a comparison between the teams, but not a solid one. First off Kobe is a step above both Vince, and either Ray Allen or Michael Redd, whichever you're choosing from. I think that the Lakers glut of guards and forwards provide better depth and talent than those two teams. Also Chris Mihm and Brian Grant are better than the big men that those teams have had, so the lakers are all around quite a bit better than the raps and bucks. On topic i think that the lakers have the deeper team but i'm not sure who would win. It all depends on chemistry of the whole team and also the chemistry between the main players of each team. Kobe-Odom and Shaq-Wade, i think it depends a lot upon the chemistry between those two sets of players from each team. I would add more, but i got a buttload of outside reading for my oh so wonderful english class, Yayyyyy (*read with extreme sarcasm*)
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting trenchteam:</div><div class="quote_post">^^ Good shot RealDeal. No centers, yet still favorites to win the west.</div> Well, I just wanted to point out that it's not actually a "center"...that they do have Duncan and Garnett though...which are two of the best players in the league, but so is Kobe. EDIT: Just like AFL Warriors pointed out. :thumbsup: But, it doesn't always have to be a big man...because I believe the Bulls proved that easily. And nobody can say that there will never be another team like the Bulls, because it's looking like it already. Chris Mihm/Luc Longley Brian Grant/Horace Grant Lamar Odom/Scottie Pippen Kobe Bryant/Michael Jordan Chucky Atkins/BJ Armstrong Vlade Divac/Bill Cartwright Spooky?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Well, I know you're a Raptors fan, so I'm hoping you don't take this the wrong way...but the Raptors have Vince, and all he's done is win a Slam Dunk Contest. He's got problems with the organization and isn't close to filling the leadership role every team needs. However, I feel like Vince will have a breakout year soon...so just letting you know that. </div> I HAVE to disagree with that statement and every single Raptor fan does as well. It makes me realize how quickly people forget the playoff runs and how quickly 2 injury-plaugued seasons can erase all your other seasons and have this label plastered all over you. Anyways, I hope Vince does break out this year because 1) he needs to get his value up and 2) he needs to erase this label off him once and for all and it will come off when the Raptors make the playoffs and all the Americans see him playing on TNT, which they have only rarely seen since 2002. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I'm not sure if anybody else sees it this way, but looking at the Lakers reminds me of a more talented version of the Raptors or Bucks. </div> MUCH more versatile and much more talented. Only they are in the West so it actually raises big question marks due to lack of size. From what we have seen, they are gelling well and as long as they have arguebly the best SG in the league, the Lakers still fair well. They won't just roll over and die. The Lakers are still a strong team. Yes, they lost an irreplaceable center in Shaq but in return but in return they got the most depth they've seen in a long time. Now, the question is: Do Laker fans perfer a GREATER chance of making the Finals and being a cotender with Shaq on thier teams or would they rather see Kobe leading his own team and trying to prove all the haters wrong and support him no matter how long it takes to get back to 'contender' status? I perfer the 2nd option because essentially, I always love those teams and players who are able to bounce back from adversity (ala the 2001 Lakers). Being with Shaq has helped Kobe alot, I'm sure even he agrees with that but it's time to move on and achieve things indivisually and stamp his own name into the books and not have an asterisk of *Shaq* placed besides him. He has 3 rings already, what has he got to lose? Once again, he has THREE rings (which he contributed significantly to) and has more then 10 years left in him. That is ENOUGH time to make plenty of playoff runs and possibly win more rings with much stronger Laker teams. That's why I'm lovin this freedom Kobe's recieving. I think I kind of went off-topic here but I just felt I had to express that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post">I HAVE to disagree with that statement and every single Raptor fan does as well. It makes me realize how quickly people forget the playoff runs and how quickly 2 injury-plaugued seasons can erase all your other seasons and have this label plastered all over you.</div> YES. Exactly what I was leading to. People forget that Kobe contributed greatly to these three championships, especially for the last two, yet since Shaq has won three MVP awards out of the deal, Kobe is shot down, just like the rest of the Lakers, and actually...even Phil Jackson. The NBA championship is given to the entire team. If it was all due to Shaq, they would give it to him. Shaq, Kobe, Phil and the team all had a part of it...Shaq, Kobe and Phil all had EQUAL roles...because without one of them, there would be no championship. However, with that said, there's always room for replacement...and when you take 3/5 of a 4th seeded team last year (the Heat) and add a championship coach, a few other players, Vlade, and Kobe Bryant...how does that not spell success? I don't understand it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">The NBA championship is given to the entire team. If it was all due to Shaq, they would give it to him. Shaq, Kobe, Phil and the team all had a part of it...Shaq, Kobe and Phil all had EQUAL roles...because without one of them, there would be no championship. </div> Very true, but Shaq DID get MVPs and Finals MVPs. Did Kobe ever get one? (I'm really looking forward to hearing everyone's excuses for Kobe on this one). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">However, with that said, there's always room for replacement...and when you take 3/5 of a 4th seeded team last year (the Heat) and add a championship coach, a few other players, Vlade, and Kobe Bryant...how does that not spell success? I don't understand it.</div> I don't think that anyone is doubting the Lakers will be successful. The fact that we are discussing who would win a 7 game series between the Heat and Lakers shows that we see the potential of a finals between the two. Who will come out on top is a different story.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">Very true, but Shaq DID get MVPs and Finals MVPs. Did Kobe ever get one? (I'm really looking forward to hearing everyone's excuses for Kobe on this one).</div> Okay, let me answer your question with a question: why did Shaq get the MVP? He was dominating his position...badly...and do you know why? I'll give you three names: Todd MacCulloch, Rik Smits, and Dikembe Mutombo. Now, before you go off about how good Dikembe was, I'll agree...he was the Defensive Player of the Year. But that doesn't account for the 500 lbs he gave up to Shaq. Dikembe was a stick. Also, Mutombo didn't score over 13 PPG in his career (I believe). However, Kobe was in the backcourt, with guys by the name of Iverson, Kidd, and Miller. Nobody expected Kobe to put up 40 PPG in those Finals...but with Shaq and who was put on him, he should've (and pretty much did) rack up points and rebounds. Here's a question: let's say that the Lakers met the Rockets in the Finals, and Hakeem was still in Houston and active (if it was possible for the two West teams to meet). Would Shaq score 40 and 15 boards on Hakeem? What about the combo of Robinson and Duncan in San Antonio? Shaq's numbers would've been high, but MUCH lower than they were against guys like MacCulloch and Smits...and that's way too easy to agree with. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think that anyone is doubting the Lakers will be successful. The fact that we are discussing who would win a 7 game series between the Heat and Lakers shows that we see the potential of a finals between the two. Who will come out on top is a different story.</div> Well, I agree somewhat, but the criticism about the Lakers not being able to get past the second round (like TONS of people are saying, and ESPN is even betting that we don't make the playoffs) is ludicrous. The 2004 Pistons didn't need a scoring center (or big man) to win...and neither did the Chicago Bulls...or the late 80's Pistons. The Sonics got to the Finals against Houston in 1995 and did it with Shawn Kemp and Gary Payton. Who was their dominant big man? My point is that not every successful feat needs to include someone like Shaq, center or power forward. The Lakers may not win a championship in the next year or so, but I guarantee that they will still be a threat in the West as long as they have Kobe, Odom and Butler. I even see a trade going down for a PG, possibly Kidd, because they already declined Rush's extension and may include Grant if Malone comes back (the Nets need a PF and an SG). Aside from this...I still believe that the Lakers have too many different options at each position. Each point guard is different...one has experience and a three point shot, one is a slasher that's really quick, and one is a young kid that's tall with good passing skills. Each shooting guard is different...Kobe is a slasher and team go-to guy, and Rush is a long range shooter. As far as forwards go, we have a defender in Grant, a combo forward and scorer in Odom, a developing shooter in Cook, an excellent passer in Walton, and Jumaine Jones is a rebounder and jumper, as is Caron...and oh, a three-point shooter and rebounder in Devean George. Our centers, Divac, Mihm and Slava, are different. One is the best passing center in the league, and a flopper, and one is a shot-blocker and potential scorer (improving, yes...he's doing better than he's ever done though)...and Mevedenko can shoot really well. Too many different aspects are covered among every player on our roster. Back in previous years, we had no replacement for Shaq (except for Medvedenko, who is now a third option for the five). When Shaq was in foul trouble, we had nobody else to rely on but Kobe. Now things are different, and I believe we are going to be better than everyone else expects.
Don't be hating on my man Dik. He's a warrior and a legend; he may be 40 or 50 and yet he still can swat 3 a game and finger wag with ease. Neither shaq or kobe will play until they're 40. Well anyways realbneal, no matter how much you say kobe will not miss shaq or you wont miss shaq but the lakers WILL MOST DEFINITELY MISS SHAQ and there's already a big hole in the paint. If you still haven't already notice...you'll see..did you know that greg anthony from espn is already writing the lakers off for the playoffs ..and the others say they might get the last playoff spot WHY? No matter how good kobe is..he can only do so much..there's just no inside offense..brian grant or mihm or divac aren't scorers. Anyways I don't know how the lakers will do this year since they're a new team like the rockets but they're not championship material that's for sure.
Okay drm2dnk, are the Rockets championship material? Also, I wasn't hating on Dikembe. I just said that compared to Shaq, he's a stick...and he doesn't score much at all, either, which is true. And Greg Anthony can say all he wants. BSPN first predicted the Lakers would win the Pacific, then said that they'd fight for a spot...and then called it off. Sounds like alot of contradiction...sounds like Shaq. This is the first time the Lakers have had a winning record in the preseason since 1996 (and actually, I believe they went 4-4 that year). That shows that we've developed SOME team chemistry, if not more. Preseason does matter...no matter what anyone else says, because without the preseason, we'd be guessing our starting five on opening day, and putting together the best possibility of players on our roster without testing their abilities against other teams before the regular season starts up.
I'll tell you tomorrow when they play detroit..but i'm already sure they're better than the lakers if that's what you're asking..only because player vs player rockets are better overall and yao can throw it down against shorty grant
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting drm2dnk:</div><div class="quote_post">I'll tell you tomorrow when they play detroit..but i'm already sure they're better than the lakers if that's what you're asking</div> Why? They are weak at the point...and who's to say that Yao and McGrady will work? Another thing...if Kobe/Shaq couldn't win it for two years, and with Malone and Payton last year...how in the world are Yao and T-Mac going to?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting drm2dnk:</div><div class="quote_post">I'll tell you tomorrow when they play detroit..but i'm already sure they're better than the lakers if that's what you're asking</div> Why? They are weak at the point...and who's to say that Yao and McGrady will work? Another thing...if Kobe/Shaq couldn't win it for two years, and with Malone and Payton last year...how in the world are Yao and T-Mac going to? Although player for player means little...let's talk about that, since that's what your opinion is all about. C - Yao Ming, Dikembe Mutombo, Clarence Weatherspoon VS C - Vlade Divac, Chris Mihm, Slava Medvedenko The Rockets win this, but not by much. Dikembe Mutombo can't contribute as much anymore, and that's why he was pretty much thrown out the window by Chicago and by past teams. Weatherspoon isn't even a center, and neither is Slava. PF - Juwan Howard, Maurice Taylor, Scott Padgett VS PF - Lamar Odom, Brian Grant, Brian Cook Lakers win this. Odom is better than Howard, and Grant is better than Taylor (if Grant is playing his natural position, which is PF). Cook is improving...Padgett isn't anything special. SF - Jim Jackson, Bostjan Nachbar VS SF - Caron Butler, Luke Walton, Jumaine Jones Lakers again. All three players are able to contribute more than Jackson and Nachbar...simple as that. SG - Tracy McGrady, Bob Sura, Reece Gaines VS SG - Kobe Bryant, Kareem Rush, Devean George You can argue this all day long, so I'm not going to give this to either team. The other SG's really don't matter when the time comes for the Rockets to play the Lakers, so I'll give this matchup a tie (although Kobe has gotten the best of him in the past). PG - Charlie Ward, Tyronn Lue VS PG - Chucky Atkins, Tierre Brown, Sasha Vujacic Rockets have this matchup won but only because Lue is a good defender. So now, there were two wins for the Rockets, two for the Lakers and a tie. Now it all comes down to chemistry and unity...so we'll see.
Thanks for comparing Yao and Tmac to Kobe and Shaq. They are very comparable, and see how effective they were. We're just getting started and I'm lookin forward to what's to come Other teams traded their key players such as lakers, kings, spurs, etc. I know the feeling of losing, it's not good , but you'll get used to it ..i'm not trying to offend the lakers..it's just that a 'championship' team has gone down to a 'good' team.. oh and another thing..the reason the shaq kobe thing stopped working..was not because of them aging..they're actually coming or are to their prime; it's because of team unity. They've lost it all because 2 players with attitude problems (maybe too young too much money). The rockets on the other hand, they don't have any players with a bad attitude and we've seen how 2 greats of a center and a shooting guard will produce if they play as a team. We won't have any problem at all to play as a team..we have better key players than the kobe and shaq ever did..we're bound. Believe that!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting drm2dnk:</div><div class="quote_post">Thanks for comparing Yao and Tmac to Kobe and Shaq. They are very comparable, and see how effective they were. We're just getting started and I'm lookin forward to what's to come Other teams traded their key players such as lakers, kings, spurs, etc. I know the feeling of losing, it's not good , but you'll get used to it ..i'm not trying to offend the lakers..it's just that a 'championship' team has gone down to a 'good' team..</div> Haha don't worry..."comparing" them doesn't necessarily mean that I'm saying that they are close to being as good. Yao and McGrady haven't played a single game, and until they win three titles, they aren't even CLOSE to Kobe and Shaq. And you can't say that a championship team has depleted to a good team if you haven't seen them play yet. If you have, then you're talking about the preseason, and by that...you'll have to admit that they are pretty damn good. Otherwise, you can't judge something when there's no basis for that judgement. Wait until mid-season or later...then make a judgement.
