Okay, this thread is leaning towards the Rockets vs. Lakers...when it's not even about the Rockets or McGrady. Everyone, even myself...let's stay on-topic please. :thumbsup:
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting drm2dnk:</div><div class="quote_post">Thanks for comparing Yao and Tmac to Kobe and Shaq. They are very comparable, and see how effective they were. We're just getting started and I'm lookin forward to what's to come Other teams traded their key players such as lakers, kings, spurs, etc. I know the feeling of losing, it's not good , but you'll get used to it ..i'm not trying to offend the lakers..it's just that a 'championship' team has gone down to a 'good' team.. oh and another thing..the reason the shaq kobe thing stopped working..was not because of them aging..they're actually coming or are to their prime; it's because of team unity. They've lost it all because 2 players with attitude problems (maybe too young too much money). The rockets on the other hand, they don't have any players with a bad attitude and we've seen how 2 greats of a center and a shooting guard will produce if they play as a team. We won't have any problem at all to play as a team..we have better key players than the kobe and shaq ever did..we're bound. Believe that!</div> Tracy McGrady doesnt have attitude problems where did you read this? Dont forget Shaqs 32, oh yha compared to Mutombo he is young. Oh and im not even going to comment about the key players part lol i think realdeal will do his part in arguing tht one lol,How could you say they have better key players??
Shaq/Kobe didn't work anymore? They did work, really well in fact, all the way to the NBA Finals. Shaq/Kobe were defeated because the entire team was defeated...simple as that. The other players weren't hitting shots and weren't playing off the ball correctly. Shaq was traded because the Lakers wanted him to take less money...like Kevin Garnett did for Minnesota. However, Shaq didn't want it and requested the trade. Also, Shaq is hitting his prime? Haha...Shaq's best years were between 1999-2002. Kobe has yet to hit his prime. -------------------- OFF-TOPIC (for the last time, hopefully)...McGrady's attitude is what sent him packing from Orlando to Houston. He even made a comment that was something about how he went out on the court with his mind set on losing again, and he just didn't want to play anymore because he "knew" that it would result in another loss. WHAT?!? I would've waived him.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheNextJordan8:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh and im not even going to comment about the key players part lol i think realdeal will do his part in arguing tht one lol,How could you say they have better key players?? </div> Yes Real will do his part, which is funny, because he's the only one that writes anything worth reading. Whenever I make a valid point, I see all you guys viewing the thread, but he is the one that responds. The rest of you don't know much about basketball and rely on him to argue for you. Anyway, earlier real said that Shaq's competition is the reason why he won Finals MVPs. While I don't agree with that, I'll let that one go. What about regular season MVPs (which Kobe has never won)? You could argue that Shaq has weaker competition, but that is not Shaq's fault. He was worked hard and made the margin between himself and other centers unsurmountable. Especially since Kobe nearly won the scoring title when Shaq was injured. We could say that Kobe HAS had his chance to prove that he is MVP calibre, but Duncan won it. What excuse do you have for that? Don't say that Duncan has weaker competition that Kobe, because the PF spot is much more stacked than sg. Everyone just admit that Kobe has not been good enough to do it, there is no excuse for it. You will never hear anyone in their right mind argue that Yao, JO, or Ben is better than Shaq. But their is a legitimate argument for Tmac being as good or better than Kobe. I think that Shaq will win MVP this year, as important as Kobe is to his team, he wont lead them to homecourt advantage in the west.
Jurassic...Allen Iverson won a regular season MVP also. Does that make him more valuable than Kobe Bryant or Tracy McGrady, since they have yet to win one?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">Jurassic...Allen Iverson won a regular season MVP also. Does that make him more valuable than Kobe Bryant or Tracy McGrady, since they have yet to win one?</div> Yes it does. Naw I'm playin . That's actually a really good point, but back then Kobe and Tmac hadn't proven anything. He won that award before Kobe ever won a ring, since then Kobe has proven much. It's not really fair to ask if when AI did three years ago makes him more valuable that Kobe, after what Kobe has done since then.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">Especially since Kobe nearly won the scoring title when Shaq was injured. We could say that Kobe HAS had his chance to prove that he is MVP calibre, but Duncan won it. What excuse do you have for that? Don't say that Duncan has weaker competition that Kobe, because the PF spot is much more stacked than sg. Everyone just admit that Kobe has not been good enough to do it, there is no excuse for it.</div> In 2000-2001, Shaq played 74 games (missing only 8)...and Kobe's season average was near 29 PPG. That's near what he got two seasons ago, when he almost won the scoring title (when Duncan won the MVP). My excuse for Kobe not winning the MVP was the same excuse for Shaq not winning it that year, either. Duncan was more valuable to his team. What other player scored on the Spurs? Shaq and Kobe BOTH were up to nearly 30 PPG, one a great rebounder and one grabbing 6 boards and 5 assists a game. They probably had split votes, and Duncan took the charge and won. Simple as that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes it does. Naw I'm playin . That's actually a really good point, but back then Kobe and Tmac hadn't proven anything. He won that award before Kobe ever won a ring, since then Kobe has proven much.</div> Kobe won a ring in the 1999-2000 season, and two more after that. Iverson was the MVP in the 2000-2001 season, right before getting beat by none other than the Lakers in the Finals that year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe won a ring in the 1999-2000 season, and two more after that. Iverson was the MVP in the 2000-2001 season, right before getting beat by none other than the Lakers in the Finals that year.</div> I'll take a hit and admit that I messed up on that comment then. However as you just said in your last post, Duncan won MVP over Kobe because he was more important to his team. The same thing applies with AI, without him the sixers were crap. Without Kobe they still had Shaq, without Shaq they would still have Kobe. MVP is not always the leagues best player (after all, Kidd has been a candidate). Besides, when Duncan wins they are still a lot of people who think that KG is #1 in the league, and vice versa. Shaq won an MVP while Kobe was on his team. So what does that say about Shaq? He was more important to the Lakers. Thus we can conclude that Shaq was better than Kobe, but only because they were on the same team. If not, Kobe would have won it. Politically, it would have made more sense to give the MVP to Kobe, because he is more popular and would increase sales more. But for some reason they gave it to Shaq, implying that he was unarguably the better more valuable player.
Well, I believe you are correct, Jurassic. Shaq won his MVP in the 1999-2000 NBA season...the first championship year for the Lakers. If you remember right, Kobe played only 66 games, compared to Shaq's 79 games and 29.7 PPG, 13 RPG. This was Kobe's second season that he was a starter, also. In fact, his first season as a starter (the previous season), he only played 50 games. With Kobe adjusting to being a starter, and developing his game, he was actually making up for all the games he missed in 1998-1999 where he became starter-material...hence, giving Shaq the MVP that next year because of his huge contribution. The next year, Kobe's stats soared, and Shaq's stayed the same. Notice this: Shaq hasn't won an MVP since.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post"> Shaq won an MVP while Kobe was on his team. So what does that say about Shaq? He was more important to the Lakers. Thus we can conclude that Shaq was better than Kobe, but only because they were on the same team. If not, Kobe would have won it. </div><font face="helvetica,arial"><font size="2"></font></font><font face="helvetica,arial"><font size="2">Bob Pettit, StL Bob Cousy, Bos Bill Russell, Bos Bob Pettit, StL Wilt Chamberlain, Phil Bill Russell, Bos Bill Russell, Bos Bill Russell, Bos Oscar Robertson, Cin Bill Russell, Bos Wilt Chamberlain, Phil Wilt Chamberlain, Phil Wilt Chamberlain, Phil Wes Unseld, Balt Willis Reed, NY Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Mil Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Mil Dave Cowens, Bos Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Mil Bob McAdoo, Buff Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LA Bill Walton, Port Moses Malone, Hou Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LA Julius Erving, Phil Moses Malone, Hou Moses Malone, Phil Larry Bird, Bos Larry Bird, Bos Larry Bird, Bos Magic Johnson, LA Lakers Michael Jordan, Chi Magic Johnson, LA Lakers Magic Johnson, LA Lakers Michael Jordan, Chi Michael Jordan, Chi <u><font color="#ffff00">Charles Barkley</font></u>, Phoe Hakeem Olajuwon, Hou <u><font color="#ffff00">David Robinson</font></u>, SA Michael Jordan, Chi <u><font color="#ffff00">Karl Malone</font></u>, Utah Michael Jordan, Chi Karl Malone, Utah Shaquille O'Neal </font></font> If we look at the MVP's its almost always the Center or big man that wins this award.. Look at other candidates like Jordan, Malone, and Bird. They didn't have big men on their team, making it easier to win the award. Iverson won it too. Did he have a "all star" big man playin on his team? NO. Big men rule the MVP awards. Theres just one of them on a 5 man rotation, while you have <u>two forwards and two guards</u>. So obviously, and good center is pretty damn valuable... Magic was one of the few to win it even with Kareem there, although Kareem was not in his prime anymore when Magic stepped in. Kobe was young and still developing game when Shaq won the NBA MVP in 1999-2000. Big Men usually are always considered more valuable because of the postion they play. Shaq got the nod in 2000.
You guys have excuses for days, and in your own data (trenchteam) it shows that Magic won the award three times. He was playing with a big man right? First you say that Kobe was too young. Then you say that it was only his second year as a starter. Then you say that he missed too many games (which is funny, because Laker fans are always telling Kings fans and VC groupies that missing games is not an excuse). Then you blame it on Tim Duncan being more valuable. I suppose if the Lakers have an unsuccessful season you will blame it on the fact that it's Kobe's first season by himself, and he needs time to get used to it. Or maybe you will blame it on Rudy T, saying that he should have rested after his surgery. Maybe it'll be Kareem Rush's fault for not developing quickly enough. All is know is that if Kobe was to run for president and lose, you guys would find a way to blame it on Shaq or Phil Jackson, or the fact that Tim Duncan had a good year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">You guys have excuses for days, and in your own data (trenchteam) it shows that Magic won the award three times. He was playing with a big man right? First you say that Kobe was too young. Then you say that it was only his second year as a starter. Then you say that he missed too many games (which is funny, because Laker fans are always telling Kings fans and VC groupies that missing games is not an excuse). Then you blame it on Tim Duncan being more valuable. I suppose if the Lakers have an unsuccessful season you will blame it on the fact that it's Kobe's first season by himself, and he needs time to get used to it. Or maybe you will blame it on Rudy T, saying that he should have rested after his surgery. Maybe it'll be Kareem Rush's fault for not developing quickly enough. All is know is that if Kobe was to run for president and lose, you guys would find a way to blame it on Shaq or Phil Jackson, or the fact that Tim Duncan had a good year.</div> I still don't understand why it's ridiculous to blame it on Kobe's inability to develop quickly. Kobe's first two years were worthless...and he started playing his third year, but missed 32 games. His fourth year, he missed 16...still trying to develop. Okay...how about this. How long did it take Michael Jordan to win an MVP? Shaq? It took Shaq what...7 or 8 years? When Shaq was drafted, he was THE go-to guy in Orlando, a team that didn't rely on anyone else to score as much as they did Shaq. Tim Duncan was probably one of the best players out of college basketball...and in his second year, he won the championship...but it wasn't until his fifth year that he won the MVP. What I'm saying is...by the time Kobe was good enough to win the MVP award (in 2000), Shaq was in his prime. Kobe and Shaq were pulling votes left and right for the award...sharing votes that were split between the two because it was very difficult as to who the MVP of the Lakers was...so you turn to the obvious choice, which was Tim Duncan. Without Duncan, the Spurs were lost. Without Garnett, the Wolves were lost. Some guys looked at the Lakers and said, "Hey...the Lakers STILL win 62% of their games when Shaq is out, and 60% of their games when Kobe is out. So who's more valuable? It's a toss-up." There are excuses for everything. Nothing goes untouched. The fact is that both Kobe and Shaq were good enough to win MVP's in 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2003...but it just didn't happen because they were both Lakers, and both were at the same level.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">This was Kobe's second season that he was a starter, also. In fact, his first season as a starter (the previous season), he only played 50 games.</div> Come on man, I know you know better than that. That was the lock out year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">Come on man, I know you know better than that.</div> What? I'm talking about the first championship season...in 1999-2000...he only played 66 games. In his first season as a starter (1998-1999), he played 50 games. EDIT: Yeah, the lockout year? I know that...but it wasn't a full 82 games to have in order to develop...that's what I'm saying.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">I still don't understand why it's ridiculous to blame it on Kobe's inability to develop quickly. Kobe's first two years were worthless...and he started playing his third year, but missed 32 games. His fourth year, he missed 16...still trying to develop. </div> No he did not! That year was the strike. I guess it's proof that you've run out of excuses, when your excuses are no longer true by any stretch of the imagination. For the record, Shaq only played 49 games that year. So now what's your excuse? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay...how about this. How long did it take Michael Jordan to win an MVP? Shaq? It took Shaq what...7 or 8 years? When Shaq was drafted, he was THE go-to guy in Orlando, a team that didn't rely on anyone else to score as much as they did Shaq.</div> So I guess Lebron should have gotten the MVP then? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Tim Duncan was probably one of the best players out of college basketball...and in his second year, he won the championship...but it wasn't until his fifth year that he won the MVP.</div> David Robinson was still arguably more important to the Spurs than Duncan was. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What I'm saying is...by the time Kobe was good enough to win the MVP award (in 2000), Shaq was in his prime.</div> Okay fine. I've heard you say that Shaq is past his prime now. Now that Kobe has his own team there is no excuse for him not to win MVP this year right?
Jurassic, I realize that there was a strike. When I say Kobe missed 32 games, I'm saying that he missed them because of the strike. That was 32 less games that he had that year to develop...almost a half a season...and to make matters worse, it was his first year as a starter. That's what I'm saying. And why should LeBron get the MVP? I never said he should...and I never said that Shaq should've gotten it either that young. Just because you score 29 PPG your rookie year doesn't mean you automatically get the MVP. Scoring is only part of the equation. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay fine. I've heard you say that Shaq is past his prime now. Now that Kobe has his own team there is no excuse for him not to win MVP this year right?</div> How? Like I said, there's always an excuse. If Kobe doesn't have a GREAT year, he shouldn't get it. McGrady really did have his own team...yet he didn't receive the award. It's not going to be about who has their own team...it's who provides for their team the best and reaches success at the same time. Is there any question as to why Iverson never got the MVP award again, although he's been putting up the same numbers as he did when he got it in 2000 (or whenever)? Numbers are only half of the story. You have leadership, stats, team record, streaks, games played...pretty much summed up in one word: success. I beleive that in a couple of years, maybe next year, maybe not...the Lakers and Kobe Bryant will find success. It doesn't have to be a championship...but they will have a successful regular season, and Kobe will find his way to an MVP award. By the way, I know some Laker fans would like to contribute to this debate...please. I know there are alot of intelligent members that are coming in here and reading the thread...but I know I'm not covering everything, either. It's a big topic right now...and no matter who likes it and who thinks it's worthless, this topic will be around for a LONG time, even after the Christmas game. Just put in your two cents...Laker fans, or non-Laker fans...
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay fine. I've heard you say that Shaq is past his prime now. Now that Kobe has his own team there is no excuse for him not to win MVP this year right?</div> Unless Lakers win 60+ games and Kobe averages 30/5/5, he won't win MVP. As you can see, the majority of the sportwriters have turned on Kobe and Lakers, and those same sprortswriters over hype Shaq and the Heat. Since it is the sportswriters who vote on the MVP, its gonna take a spectacular season by Kobe for him to win. On the other hand, they've all but given the award to Shaq. If he has a solid season and the Heat win over 50 games, Shaq's your MVP.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">did you know that greg anthony from espn is already writing the lakers off for the playoffs ..and the others say they might get the last playoff spot </div> Yeah, those are the same guys that said the Pistons didn't have a chance against the Lakers last year.
shaq was only more important to the lakers because the whole triangle strategy was based around him. but i believe that without either shaq or kobe the lakers would never have won any championships.
