Sharpe vs Other Rookies

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by wizenheimer, Jan 22, 2023.

  1. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    LOL...you have a really broad definition of elite then. Dame is elite. CJ is not
     
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  2. bigbailes

    bigbailes Well-Known Member

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    CJ was a great pick, the problem isn't his talent, the problem was always the fit next to Dame and NO's stubbornness to trade away the one great pick he actually made.
     
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  3. illmatic99

    illmatic99 formerly yuyuza1

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    Trent?
    Simons?
    Little?
    Connaugton?
    Dame?

    All these guys have vastly outperformed their draft position?
     
  4. bigbailes

    bigbailes Well-Known Member

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    Dame wasn't his ... Little has been made of glass and I'd say didn't outperform his spot just yet ... Simons is a good pick but don't think any of those guys hit the level that CJ has. I give him credit for finding diamonds in 2nd round more than he should have, but IMO CJ was the one pick he really hit on and refused to let him go.
     
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  5. handiman

    handiman Well-Known Member

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    Like Olshey, you can't admit when you're wrong.
     
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  6. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    lol...admit I'm wrong about what?

    How many "elite" players would you say there are in the NBA? My gauge is somewhere in the top-15; no more than that. And CJ sure isn't top-15
     
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  7. BLAZINGGIANTS

    BLAZINGGIANTS Well-Known Member

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    ding ding ding
     
  8. handiman

    handiman Well-Known Member

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    Well, as I said, ESPN had him rated as high as 13th best at his peak, so he's in the discussion even by your standard.
     
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  9. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    Do you actually think CJ was ever the 13th best player in the NBA? Those lists are stupid. They have always been stupid. They regularly put players above Dame who are not better than him.
     
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  10. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    no he's not because ESPN is not any standard I'd use. What year was that anyhow and is there a link to it so we can see who ESPN put below him?...need laughs anyway

    I mean, does anybody really think CJ is anywhere near the top-15 players in the league? Disregarding current health he's only the 3rd best on his team and that's being generous because Valunciunas has an argument as 3rd best, just like CJ
     
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  11. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    Even when he was younger he was never top 15.
     
  12. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    yeah, they usually are. I mean, just go down the list of the western conference standings of who is better and (who is comparable or has more value):

    Denver - Jokic (Murray)
    Memphis - Ja Morant; Bane (Jaren Jackson)
    Sacramento- - Fox; Sabonis
    New Orleans- Zion; Ingram (Valunciunas)
    LAC - Kawhi; Paul George
    Dallas - Doncic (Dinwiddie)
    Phoenix - Devin Booker; Mikal Bridges (CP3)
    Golden State - Curry (Draymond; Klay)
    Minny - Edwards; KAT (Gobert)
    Utah - Markannen
    OKC - SGA
    Portland - Dame/ Grant (yeah, I think Grant is just as good with more versatile value)
    LAL - Lebron; AD

    so then, just in the west I see 20-21 players who are better and 8 or 9 who are debatable. Even if you're a CJ fan and knock 3 or 4 of those players below CJ (who exactly?) that would still leave more than 15 and that's only half the league. there is still the eastern conference: Tatum, Jalen Brown, Embiid, Harden, Giannis, Jrue, Middleton, Durant, Kyrie, Donovan Mitchell, Garland, Jimmy Butler, Adebayo, Julius Randall? Trae Young, Haliburton, Myles Turner? Beal, DeRozan, LaVine, Siakam, Lamelo

    there's 20-22 more. And if you have any questions about some of these players, ask yourself who you'd rather Portland have, Cj or Jaren Jackson? CJ or Dinwiddie? CJ or Myles Turner?

    I'm not even sure CJ is in the top-40, let alone the top-30
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2023
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  13. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    But even if you go back to whatever mythical year where he was chosen as 13th best, I bet we could find 20-25 guys who were better.
     
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  14. damianlillard

    damianlillard Well-Known Member

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    It was probably the year that we went to the WCF
     
  15. TBpup

    TBpup Writing Team

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    I'm not impressed with Sharpe's inability to catch 15' high lob passes from Jerami Grant.
     
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  16. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    Something to work on!
     
  17. handiman

    handiman Well-Known Member

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    "Even if they over-valued him somewhat, that's certainly in the elite mix." Read harder.

    It's not difficult to find...

    https://www.google.com/search?q=espn player rankings cj mccollum 13

    Top result:

    https://www.blazersedge.com/2019/9/25/20884039/espn-best-100-players-list-cj-mccollum-no-13-blazers
    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27691396/ranking-best-players-nba-season-30-11

    As far as standards to go by, your choice of "elite" being top-15 is also questionable. That limits it to basically half the all-stars, which I imagine many teams would object to.
     
  18. HomerLovesKoolAid

    HomerLovesKoolAid I have a well-known member.

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    Blazer practice goals:

    1. Make simple passes
    2. Work on lob passes
    3. Work on execution of fast breaks before S2 forumites start jumping off bridges.
     
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  19. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    and that list only proves one thing about ESPN lists: that Nate was right when he said "Those lists are stupid. They have always been stupid"

    at no point in time during CJ's career has he been the 13th best player in the NBA. Not close


    Yes "elite" is a subjective. I choose not to dilute it's meaning which is why I tend to draw the line at 15

    as far as the all-star game being a gauge of elite....cmon man. In the last 15 years, these players have been all-stars:

    Caron Butler
    Josh Howard
    Mehmet Okur
    Carlos Boozer
    David West
    Antawn Jamison
    Devin Harris
    Mo Williams
    Danny Granger
    Zach Randolph
    Chris Kaman
    Joe Johnson
    Andre Iguodala
    Roy Hibbert
    Luol Deng
    LaMarcus Aldridge
    Tyson Chandler
    Joakim Noah
    Brook Lopez
    DeMar DeRozan
    Paul Millsap
    Kyle Korver
    Jeff Teague
    John Wall
    Isaiah Thomas
    Andre Drummond
    Al Horford
    John Wall
    Isaiah Thomas
    Andre Drummond
    Al Horford
    Gordon Hayward
    DeAndre Jordan
    Kemba Walker
    Kyle Lowry
    Bradley Beal
    Victor Oladipo
    Goran Dragić
    Ben Simmons
    Khris Middleton
    D'Angelo Russell
    Nikola Vučević
    Bam Adebayo
    Brandon Ingram
    Domantas Sabonis
    Zach LaVine
    Julius Randle
    Mike Conley
    Darius Garland
    Jarrett Allen
    Fred VanVleet
    Andrew Wiggins
    Dejounte Murray
    LaMelo Ball


    and of course, don't forget about Jamal Magloire!

    Most of those players were observably and statistically better than CJ. Many of them definitely were much better at defense. And I don't see a single one of those guys that reached the level of elite

    so yeah, I have a higher undiluted definition of elite

    that espn list you're using as your evidence was based upon the 2018/19 season; they revise it every year. That season CJ ranked (among the 183 qualified players):

    47th in 3ptFG%
    78th in assists
    27th in scoring...but 17th in FGA
    71st in PER
    121st in TS%
    82nd in winshares/48
    73rd in BPM

    yeah, right...."13th best player"...."elite"
     
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  20. handiman

    handiman Well-Known Member

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    Typical wizen-stats, using 15 years' worth of fringe all-stars to represent an annual number (e.g., roughly half the yearly group). That's a little over 3 per year, and several of them were definitely elite when they earned their All-Star spots.

    It's amusing how transparent your attempts to misrepresent statistics has become.
     

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