LOL...you know what...piss off with your insults. Maybe you're just tired & cranky from constantly moving the goal posts in this discussion I didn't "misrepresent" anything. You're the one that brought the all-star game into the mix as some kind of gauge. I simply listed a bunch of non-elite players that have made the all-star game. but please, for the guy that's arguing that CJ is elite and my standard is too restrictive, what is your standard? Is elite the top-50 players in the league? which direction would you go from 50? And right now what would you say CJ's rank is in the NBA? Since you spent a lot of time trashing me for my opinion, show what yours is
Labels like "superstar" and "elite" or ranking players is so subjective, it's not worth arguing over.
Per/36, Anfernee's assists increase when he shares the floor with Sharpe. It's amusing to me, not saying you do it or have done it, that people clamor for a bench scorer, a Jordan Clarkson sort of gunner to come in off of our bench for a scoring punch. Anfernee is used precisely in that role, and people hate him for it. Sometimes a starter could also be in conjunction with the reserves and viewed as a player with a different role. Anfernee is one role with the starters, and a different role when he is in with primarily bench players.
I know that somewhere that are stats for which player assists another player. Not sure where it is or if it's behind a paywall
Somewhere in the 20-30 range, between All-Star squad size and the number of teams in the league. You have to figure there's roughly one elite player per team. With top teams having 2 or 3 of them, there'd otherwise be far too many teams lacking someone they could consider elite with a more limited definition. And I don't think GMs view things that way. If you look back, you'll see that I didn't call CJ currently elite. I referred to at his peak, and that Olshey was right for considering him an elite prospect. Even if the #13 is an outlier, it wasn't his only year being ranked high enough to be in the elite discussion. Getting bent out of shape for having your opinion trashed, while missing the gist of what you're framing an argument against, is again Olshey-like irony. I'm beginning to see why you hate him so much. No one likes having a mirror held up in front of them.
I made a list of each conference earlier in the thread...players who I believe are clearly better than CJ. There were 41-42 of them with about 10 more that are comparable with CJ. You'd have to place CJ over more than half of those players to get him in the top 20, and I think you'd look like kind of crazy if you did. I think it would be a real stretch to even get him in the top 30 by eliminating 11 or 12 of those guys Olshey's opinion on CJ doesn't mean fuck-all, then or now. Olshey thought Roy Hibbert, Greg Monroe, & Chandler Parsons were worth max contracts. Olsheythought CJ was more valuable than Paul George and Jimmy Butler. He thought Evan Turner was worth 18M/year and Meyers worth 10M/year. He thought of himself as having done a great job in the 2017 draft. Olshey made a career out of being wrong I wasn't disputing that Olshey had an extremely inflated view of CJ's talent and value. I was saying he was wrong about CJ's talent and very wrong about the fit with Dame, and that both misconceptions were clear very early in the experiment Dame was clearly an elite player by the time he was 25 or 26; he's still clearly elite at 32. CP3 was elite for for well more than a decade; maybe closer to 15 years than 10. Lebron & Curry the same. Giannis & Jokic will be at an elite level for many years to come. Wilt, Bird, Magic, MJ...they stayed on top for lots of years maybe being elite is as simple as getting there and remaining there for a lot of years. That's what real elite talent will do; elite talent has staying power. More clearly, elite talent is obvious. On the other hand, the talent of any player who was maybe/maybe-not elite for a single season was only a mirage. Stands to reason if CJ was top-15 at 27, his "peak", he'd still be at 31 yeah...I've noticed that about you....that you can't seem to have a disagreement with somebody without getting personal and hurling insults. Here's a hint: it's not persuasive. And LOL at the "mirror" stuff...whatever you say Sigmund
I was answering your question about what standard I would assign to elite, not where I would rank CJ currently.
yes Soapy picked CJ, but in doing so he passed on Giannis. He wiffed on the best opportunity he had to put together a contender & you're calling that great? Dame + Giannis the last decade together... STOMP
To be fair (and I think Olshey is scum as well) but 14 teams whiffed on Giannis. He had a lot of question marks and was super duper raw coming into the league.
I spent a lot of time in Milwaukee when they drafted him and there was huge skepticism on them drafting the Greek Freak.
Yeah I get that, but I still don't understand drafting a 6'3 combo guard the year after drafting Dame.
oh I know. I can’t stand undersized guards. Especially 2 guards. I said it for a long time and still feel this way, but CJ and Simons are best suited for coming off the bench in a spark plug type role. Because they can score in bunches but can’t guard a chair so their impact on the game almost cancels each other out.
In evaluating a GM's moves in hindsight, why does what the fans or press thought back then matter one iota? Their expertise in projecting talent is largely what separates a good GM from the bad. Unless you are a Bucks fan there is nothing "great" about Olshey passing on Giannis to draft CJ STOMP
I don't believe there was much if any highlight tapes for us mere fans to look at of Antetokounmo coming into the draft... I didn't see them anyway. Giannis didn't attend the combine either. However, the first time I set eyes on him his rookie year I thought holy shit! A long, super athletic & coordinated Big with a superior handle jumped off the screen. Being the youngest in that draft should have brushed aside any lack of a skills concerns... plenty of time to teach those if he seems a good kid. It's not like Paul wasn't giving Neil the resources to explore interesting International prospects. Yes it's easier for management to get an evaluation on a 4 year college guy, but at his size Giannis's talents were even less subtle and rare then Shaedon's. Any decent scout should have been extremely intrigued. STOMP
Oh I agree and as they have more than one big league team in the state it didn't fester in the press or with fans. And you are right in that fans or the press's opinion doesn't matter one iota much like opinions on here don't matter one iota. Chatter and crickets.
By his own admission, it took Giannis a year or so to figure out how serious he needed to be in order to excel in the league. Reading between the lines, that means he hadn't shown those qualities pre-draft, which would have made projecting his growth pretty difficult.
